Solarion blade damage. Check my math.


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Am I adding this up correctly and not missing anything?
at level 12 they add 1d6 per level right so starting at 4d6 at 12 then going to 20 they end up with a 12d6 blade then you can add the weapon crystal and do 18d6 (plus 6d6 crit bleed)? Then you get to add your level to the damage and your strength which could easily be another +5 you could use plasma sheath and add another +20? and deadly aim for another +10 then make 3 attacks if they all hit doing. 54d6 +165? so somewhere around 330 damage without a crit?

Only thing close to that I've seen is the heavy weapon doing 9d12 but has a lower minimum and will fluctuate a lot. does the soldier add enough to that to keep them on par with the Solarion?


Soldier should be right behind the solarian in damage. I'll note that the weapon crystal only adds 6d6 damage, so you should be doing 18d6+Str+spec+Sheathe.


Paragon reaction cannon: 12d10 (which is better than 9d12), average damage 66 points comparing to 18d6, average of 63. Soldier can't add his Strength bonus to ranged damage, but he can apply +5 from bullet barrage (gear boost) and 2d6 per attack with Focus Fire ability of Sharpshoot style.

Solarion: 63 plus... Str +9 (maxed Strength), plasma sheath +10, Weapon Spec +20, Deadly Aim +10...

Soldier: 66 plus... Weapon Spec +20, Deadly Aim +10, bullet barrage +5, focus fire +2d6, average 7.

Four points of difference per attack on single target (Focus fire only works on the first target of a full attack).

Curved dimensional blade also inflicts 12d10 points of damage and has 6d6 critical bleed effect. It won't get bullet barrage or focus fire, but it can get Strength bonus (up to +9), with additional half the Strength bonus thanks to melee striker gear boost (+4), and twice the number of enemies within 10 feet (against the odds, 17th level blitz ability) - if there are at least three significant opponents, the extra Strength bonus and this balance the plasma sheath, and the average damage from the weapon is already a bit higher.


d'Eon wrote:
Soldier should be right behind the solarian in damage. I'll note that the weapon crystal only adds 6d6 damage, so you should be doing 18d6+Str+spec+Sheathe.

×3 attacks


Thank you Drejk. however is it possible to get a +9 strength bonus? start with 18 +1 for 5 10 15 20. would be a 22 at +6. Have I not found something yet that adds more to strength?


Looks like this:

12d6 Naturally
up to 6d6 from a crystal
up to +20 from Plasma Sheath
+10 from deadly aim
+20 from Weapon Specialization
+4 from Photon Mode

Each attack does: 18d6+62

Assuming a +8 Strength (Let's assume a 16 base, 18 level 5, 19 level 10, 20 level 15, 21 level 20, +6 for maximum enhancement bonus... So 27 Strength, or a +8.)

18d6 = average of 3.5 per d6, so 7 per 2, or 63 average + 62 so 125 damage per hit on an average roll. So around 375 damage per full attack assuming all 3 attacks hit and discounting any crits.

Soldier is close behind this, the maximum I am able to come up with for them is 14d10 +Strength +20 (weapon spec) +10 from Deadly Aim

14d10+38 or 77+38 = 115 so 345 average if all 3 attacks hit.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

Am I adding this up correctly and not missing anything?

at level 12 they add 1d6 per level right so starting at 4d6 at 12 then going to 20 they end up with a 12d6 blade then you can add the weapon crystal and do 18d6 (plus 6d6 crit bleed)? Then you get to add your level to the damage and your strength which could easily be another +5 you could use plasma sheath and add another +20? and deadly aim for another +10 then make 3 attacks if they all hit doing. 54d6 +165? so somewhere around 330 damage without a crit?

Only thing close to that I've seen is the heavy weapon doing 9d12 but has a lower minimum and will fluctuate a lot. does the soldier add enough to that to keep them on par with the Solarion?

Per table 4-8 on page 101, yes Solar weapon does 12d6 at level 20. A level 20 weapon crystal does add 6d6 damage. However, plasma sheath only adds half your level, so +10. Photon mode will add +4 damage.

Assuming maximum strength at 20 and a +6 personal upgrade to strength is +9 damage (22+6 = 28 Str). Advanced Melee Specialization gives +20 at level 20. Deadly aim would add +10.
Total damage per non-crit hit is 18d6+10 (Plasma) + 4 (Photon mode) +9 (Str) + 20 (Level) + 10 (Deadly Aim) = 18d6+53 (116 avg)

Lets assume weapon focus for maximum accuracy.

So a level 20 full attack is 3 attacks at 20 (BAB) + 9 (Str) + 1 (WF) - 5 (Solarion's Onslaught) -2 (Deadly Aim) = +23 to-hit.
So +23, 18d6+53 three times.

If all those hit (which isn't that likely), you'll be doing 54d6+159, or 348 on average.

A ranged Sharpshooter can use a Paragon Reaction Cannon for 12d10 + 20 (Level) + 2d6 (Focused Damage) + 6 Bullet Barage + 10 (Deadly Aim) = 12d10+2d6+36 (109 avg).

I'll note with Heavy Onslaught the Soldier can ignore 10 points of the enemies DR, compared to at most 5 for the Solarian using Penetrating Attack feat.

The ranged sharpshooter is 20 (BAB) + 9 (Dex) + 1 (WF) - 5 (Focus Fire) - 2 (Deadly Aim) = +23 to hit as well.

If all 3 hit, the soldier will do 36d10+6d6+108, or 327 on average. At 100 foot range. Similar damage output with a melee build since it adds 1.5x Str (max 13) instead of 2d6+6 (avg 13).

Soldiers can keep up reasonably well.

Edit: Note the 14d10 melee weapon is unwieldy, and thus can't be used in a multi-attack routine.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Thank you Drejk. however is it possible to get a +9 strength bonus? start with 18 +1 for 5 10 15 20. would be a 22 at +6. Have I not found something yet that adds more to strength?

Right, 3 attacks. Personal upgrade mk 3 adds another +6 to a stat.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Thank you Drejk. however is it possible to get a +9 strength bonus? start with 18 +1 for 5 10 15 20. would be a 22 at +6. Have I not found something yet that adds more to strength?

Augmentations. You can have single +6 to one ability score, +4 to another, and +2 to third one. They cost a lot but well within 20th level character reach.

I noticed what was the problem with your math: plasma sheath adds HALF the character level, not full level, that was the crucial 10 points per attack difference.


Wow thanks! you guys are super awesome!


Ah, I missed +4 bonus for photon mode for solarion, that will balance the add half of Strength bonus again ability of soldier.

On the other hand I misread bullet barrage (that it gives 1 plus 1 per 4 levels extra damage) so it deals 1 more point of damage at 20th level


Side effect of melee damage dedication: Strength-focused soldier has a lot more Resolve Points than Strength-focused solarion...


Hmm so how much would you need to lower the Solarions strength to have them tie (or close to) at damage?


That way you could keep in par damage with the soldier and still have charisma for resolve.

EDIT: Seems like if it wasn't for accuracy his strength bonus could be 7 less and still do the same damage as the soldier.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:

Am I adding this up correctly and not missing anything?

at level 12 they add 1d6 per level right so starting at 4d6 at 12 then going to 20 they end up with a 12d6 blade then you can add the weapon crystal and do 18d6 (plus 6d6 crit bleed)? Then you get to add your level to the damage and your strength which could easily be another +5 you could use plasma sheath and add another +20? and deadly aim for another +10 then make 3 attacks if they all hit doing. 54d6 +165? so somewhere around 330 damage without a crit?

Only thing close to that I've seen is the heavy weapon doing 9d12 but has a lower minimum and will fluctuate a lot. does the soldier add enough to that to keep them on par with the Solarion?

Per table 4-8 on page 101, yes Solar weapon does 12d6 at level 20. A level 20 weapon crystal does add 6d6 damage. However, plasma sheath only adds half your level, so +10. Photon mode will add +4 damage.

Assuming maximum strength at 20 and a +6 personal upgrade to strength is +9 damage (22+6 = 28 Str). Advanced Melee Specialization gives +20 at level 20. Deadly aim would add +10.
Total damage per non-crit hit is 18d6+10 (Plasma) + 4 (Photon mode) +9 (Str) + 20 (Level) + 10 (Deadly Aim) = 18d6+53 (116 avg)

Lets assume weapon focus for maximum accuracy.

So a level 20 full attack is 3 attacks at 20 (BAB) + 9 (Str) + 1 (WF) - 5 (Solarion's Onslaught) -2 (Deadly Aim) = +23 to-hit.
So +23, 18d6+53 three times.

If all those hit (which isn't that likely), you'll be doing 54d6+159, or 348 on average.

A ranged Sharpshooter can use a Paragon Reaction Cannon for 12d10 + 20 (Level) + 2d6 (Focused Damage) + 6 Bullet Barage + 10 (Deadly Aim) = 12d10+2d6+36 (109 avg).

I'll note with Heavy Onslaught the Soldier can ignore 10 points of the enemies DR, compared to at most 5 for the Solarian using Penetrating Attack feat.

The ranged sharpshooter is 20 (BAB) + 9 (Dex) + 1 (WF) - 5 (Focus Fire) - 2 (Deadly Aim) = +23 to hit as well.

If all 3 hit, the soldier will do...

Oops you're right, +10 not +20 from plasma sheath.

So 18d6+52 is the maximum (reasonable) amount you can get on a Solarian.

So 345 on average from the Solarian.

Also good catch on the Soldier weapon, and I didn't take into account 2d6 from Focused Damage, which would apply to Soldier melee. As would Melee Striker.

So dimensional slice curve blade 12d10 + Strength x 1.5 + 2d6 + 20 + 10

Soldier:
66+12+7+20+10 = 115 on average

Solarian:
63+8+4+20+10+10 = 115 on average

Putting them at dead even.

If my math is right?


Drejk wrote:
Side effect of melee damage dedication: Strength-focused soldier has a lot more Resolve Points than Strength-focused solarion...

Not really...

Going 16 Str 16 Cha on a Solarian means that they'll both be naturally at 18 at 5, 19 at 10, 20 at 15, and 21 at 20

The Soldier is going to have +6 Strength, yes, while the Solarian is only likely to have +4, that is only a difference of 1 resolve point?

Liberty's Edge

Focused Damage can't be used on melee attacks, guys. It specifies that it can only be used with Focused Fire, which specifies ranged weapons only.

The Solarian is king of melee damage. The Soldier is king of ranged damage (which is slightly lower, but has obvious advantages).


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Focused Damage can't be used on melee attacks, guys. It specifies that it can only be used with Focused Fire, which specifies ranged weapons only.

The Solarian is king of melee damage. The Soldier is king of ranged damage (which is slightly lower, but has obvious advantages).

Good catch, so that reduces the Soldier damage by 7.

Meaning:
Solarion: 115
Soldier: 108

Still, that is so close together I'd call comparable.

I mean, looking at the damage dice alone:

16d6 (16-96) vs 12d10 (12-120) - There is enough variance there for either one to come out on top at any given time.


The other thing too is the solarion could have less then max strength and still be fine in the damage department. So being a little mad doesn't seem to make a huge difference difference of 8 points is hardly noticeable.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
The other thing too is the solarion could have less then max strength and still be fine in the damage department. So being a little mad doesn't seem to make a huge difference difference of 8 points is hardly noticeable.

Honestly, there is no reason for the Solarian to not be at max strength on a melee build. At least using 16 as "max" it is impossibly easy to get to.

Liberty's Edge

HWalsh wrote:

Good catch, so that reduces the Soldier damage by 7.

Meaning:
Solarion: 115
Soldier: 108

Still, that is so close together I'd call comparable.

I mean, looking at the damage dice alone:

16d6 (16-96) vs 12d10 (12-120) - There is enough variance there for either one to come out on top at any given time.

Uh...Solarian gets 18D6 which is 18-108. Still enough variance that either could come out on top, but the Soldier's bonus on top of that is +42, a full 10 points lower than that of the Solarian.

I'd say with an average of 7 extra damage per attack, Solarian has this one. Especially since they effectively have +1 to hit.

A melee Soldier is still very valid, and has a simplicity as compared to Solarian many will find enjoyable, but Solarian is the better melee damage option.


HWalsh wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
The other thing too is the solarion could have less then max strength and still be fine in the damage department. So being a little mad doesn't seem to make a huge difference difference of 8 points is hardly noticeable.
Honestly, there is no reason for the Solarian to not be at max strength on a melee build. At least using 16 as "max" it is impossibly easy to get to.

I agree you get 4 choices every time might as well make one of them str. But even if you missed it twice even you will still be a melee power house.


The problem also, of doing this, is that we are trying to theorycraft Solarians at level 20 by only looking at damage. Nothing else, just melee damage.

There is way too much going on with the class at that point to do that:

Things like:

Did the Solarian have Ultimate Photon? If so, did they spend 1 Resolve in Round 1, in order to Activate Solar Acceleration (bringing them out of Attunement for 1 round) so that they can make Full Attacks as a Standard Action?

Did the Soldier do that? Can the soldier do that? The Solarian has to do that (or they ain't full attacking with Plasma Sheath)

Etc etc.

This isn't a simple matter of "Who hits harder" it is a complex question about who can use what they have to their fullest and that, I don't think, is something that we can (for certain) say since there are so many unknown variables that are involved.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Good catch, so that reduces the Soldier damage by 7.

Meaning:
Solarion: 115
Soldier: 108

Still, that is so close together I'd call comparable.

I mean, looking at the damage dice alone:

16d6 (16-96) vs 12d10 (12-120) - There is enough variance there for either one to come out on top at any given time.

Uh...Solarian gets 18D6 which is 18-108. Still enough variance that either could come out on top, but the Soldier's bonus on top of that is +42, a full 10 points lower than that of the Solarian.

I'd say with an average of 7 extra damage per attack, Solarian has this one. Especially since they effectively have +1 to hit.

A melee Soldier is still very valid, and has a simplicity as compared to Solarian many will find enjoyable, but Solarian is the better melee damage option.

You're right (on the 18d6) for some reason I math'ed 16*6 - Sorry. It's 1:50am and I am on some pain meds heh. A little tired.


True I agree. however technically the question was if the math was correct (no) and if the soldier could keep on par (leaning towards yes).

Next I need to read over the operative and see where they are at.


Been looking at numbers is it just me or are the dice for melee weapons better then for ranged weapons? without adding in modifiers melee base damage seems better.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:

True I agree. however technically the question was if the math was correct (no) and if the soldier could keep on par (leaning towards yes).

Next I need to read over the operative and see where they are at.

Nowhere close to as high. They've got, at best, 8d6+17 damage or so per attack in melee (and usually somewhat less, that's with Str 24 which is kind of a waste on an Operative) an add 10d8 when Trick Attacking.

They do alright, but nothing compared to Solarian and Soldier.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Been looking at numbers is it just me or are the dice for melee weapons better then for ranged weapons? without adding in modifiers melee base damage seems better.

Advanced Melee Weapons are roughly on par with Heavy Weapons. While Basic Melee Weapons are more on par with Longarms. And only Operative Weapons are on par with Small Arms. So...it sorta depends on what you mean.

IMO, melee weapons get a 'proficiency break' with one tier lower proficiencies doing the same damage, in exchange for operating based on Str, which is pretty much a flat-out worse stat than Dex.


They get the extra attack at least right? Their not meant to be the damaging class their more of the rogue/skillful person role correct?

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
They get the extra attack at least right? Their not meant to be the damaging class their more of the rogue/skillful person role correct?

Right. They actually get two extra attacks, and wind up very mobile with the accuracy plus 10d8 from Trick Attack making the damage about equal to a full attack, and their damage is on par with non-Soldiers even using Small Arms and Operative Weapons (which are the only weapons they get extra attacks with).

But they're nowhere near the Full BAB classes in damage.

Paizo Employee Designer

The real fun comes in when you try to account for rider-effects. For instance, on a successful trick attack in a party with both the aforementioned solarian and soldier, even if the operative has found no shinier debilitations than the basic starting ones, they can add flat-footed, thus increasing the party's expected damage output by .3 soldier hits and .3 solarian hits in addition to trick attack damage. When you add those all up (if you like to count it up that way), you come out to quite a bit more damage than from the operative alone.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
The real fun comes in when you try to account for rider-effects. For instance, on a successful trick attack in a party with both the aforementioned solarian and soldier, even if the operative has found no shinier debilitations than the basic starting ones, they can add flat-footed, thus increasing the party's expected damage output by .3 soldier hits and .3 solarian hits in addition to trick attack damage. When you add those all up (if you like to count it up that way), you come out to quite a bit more damage than from the operative alone.

Absolutely true. The debuffs are very good.


Mark Seifter wrote:
The real fun comes in when you try to account for rider-effects. For instance, on a successful trick attack in a party with both the aforementioned solarian and soldier, even if the operative has found no shinier debilitations than the basic starting ones, they can add flat-footed, thus increasing the party's expected damage output by .3 soldier hits and .3 solarian hits in addition to trick attack damage. When you add those all up (if you like to count it up that way), you come out to quite a bit more damage than from the operative alone.

Or they can turn off a bad guy's jetpack in a midair battle with the right talent.

Paizo Employee Designer

Ventnor wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The real fun comes in when you try to account for rider-effects. For instance, on a successful trick attack in a party with both the aforementioned solarian and soldier, even if the operative has found no shinier debilitations than the basic starting ones, they can add flat-footed, thus increasing the party's expected damage output by .3 soldier hits and .3 solarian hits in addition to trick attack damage. When you add those all up (if you like to count it up that way), you come out to quite a bit more damage than from the operative alone.
Or they can turn off a bad guy's jetpack in a midair battle with the right talent.

Indeed. That is an example of one of the shinier debuffs. Operatives turn out to do less direct damage while being mobile and tricky in a fight, using their skills and wits to screw over the enemy while also dealing respectable (but less than the true warrior classes) damage. Sounds right to me!


Been Looking over charts and damage for guns melee and unarmed. It looks like the damage dice average rolls works out to around level to damage but then doubles at around 11-15 (22 to about 36) and then is triple at 15-20 (38 to about 63) with slight fluctuations from level to level. Unarmed does roughly half the damage of a one handed melee weapon at its level. all modifiers I've found are pretty linear.

Heavy weapons seems to add that plus another .5 - .75 x level to damage.

weapon specialization is of course linear as are most other bonuses. now hit points (and stam) go up at a fairly steady rate. You could of course bump your con easy enough. but adding in extra attacks it seems that higher level combat should be far deadlier then low level combat. I guess its to early to tell.


I'm kind of impressed with the math so far.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Been looking at numbers is it just me or are the dice for melee weapons better then for ranged weapons? without adding in modifiers melee base damage seems better.

Advanced Melee Weapons are roughly on par with Heavy Weapons. While Basic Melee Weapons are more on par with Longarms. And only Operative Weapons are on par with Small Arms. So...it sorta depends on what you mean.

IMO, melee weapons get a 'proficiency break' with one tier lower proficiencies doing the same damage, in exchange for operating based on Str, which is pretty much a flat-out worse stat than Dex.

Agreed. Like, high dex = Higher AC and better Reflex Saves, also better for a number of skills.

The exchange is they get less damage. Operatives *do* get an extra attack however.

So like, all things being equal the two top Operative weapons are:

Molecular Rift Dagger (10d4 = 10-40 avg 25) & Advanced Baton (8d6 = 8-36 avg 28)

So assuming: 28 +Strength +20 (Weapon Specialization) If we assume strength is secondary on these guys, so a starting 14, 16 at 5, 17 at 10, 18 at 15, 19 at 20, then +4 for implant we're looking at around 23, or +6, and of course +10 for Deadly Aim

So they have 2 options:
1. Full attack:
28 +6 +20 +10 = 64 damage x4 Attacks for an avg. of 256 damage, which is far less than the Soldier/Solarian full attacking.

---Editing---

2. Trick Attack (+10d8 avg 45)
28 +6 +20 +10 +45 = 109 damage, but only 1, which is far than 256 from full attacking, and lower than even a non-full attack from a Soldier/Solarian.

-----

Edit: Much like the Solarian, its not a good idea to just base on damage though, because they have all kinds of other things they can do.


Doesn't their trick attack do d8's?


Slight derail for a moment:

I'd like to thank everyone for this thread. It has kept my attention for the last hour at least. I'm in stupid amounts of pain tonight and this has helped a lot, more than words can really articulate, so thank you all for this.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Doesn't their trick attack do d8's?

It does. Oops.

Fixing.


HWalsh wrote:

Slight derail for a moment:

I'd like to thank everyone for this thread. It has kept my attention for the last hour at least. I'm in stupid amounts of pain tonight and this has helped a lot, more than words can really articulate, so thank you all for this.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

YAY fun with math *looks at time* holy cow I have killed like 2 hours on this thread.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Slight derail for a moment:

I'd like to thank everyone for this thread. It has kept my attention for the last hour at least. I'm in stupid amounts of pain tonight and this has helped a lot, more than words can really articulate, so thank you all for this.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

YAY fun with math *looks at time* holy cow I have killed like 2 hours on this thread.

I do not mind this. I can keep going for quite some time. I doubt I'll be sleeping tonight anyway.


I am not (usually) an optimizer, but it is a nice intellectual exercise to look at potentials, even if I don't think I can gauge how likely those potentials are going to be reached.


So I'm thinking abut unarmed strike. It does about half the damage of any normal weapon. So it is really only useful in bar room brawls etc. I wonder if a class comes out later to make a brawler style character if the rationale would be to give them far more attacks, have them have a way of buffing their damage, give them effect on the side (unarmed plus disarm, or grapple etc.) Or possibly some combination.

Operative can use unarmed right? so they get at least trick attack damage and 4 attacks correct? the operative melee weapon is what 8d6 so really its only a die behind?


I'm basically researching. for a project i'm working on.

Liberty's Edge

Nope. Unarmed Combat is not an Operative weapon, and thus not an available option.


Ah That is sad it seems like the best chasie for unarmed. I saw someone suggest just describing your solar weapon as unarmed but I was trying to think of practical use for the feat. Maybe there can be a talent or feat later on.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Ah That is sad it seems like the best chasie for unarmed. I saw someone suggest just describing your solar weapon as unarmed but I was trying to think of practical use for the feat. Maybe there can be a talent or feat later on.

An Archetype could also easily do something with unarmed combat, beut yeah, on its own all it does is give you a subpar weapon that can't be disarmed.

For the moment going Solarian with a Solar Battleglove is by far the best 'unarmed' build.


So let me see If I can wrap my head around this.

Solarion melee

soldier ranged

operative skill trick

Envoy Buffer

Mystic healer (plus mind spells?)

Technomancer FUBAR spells

Mechanic uhh mechanic stuff?

All the classes should be able to do ok with a weapon in their hands from what I've seen. not soldier good but ok right?


My problem is that 1/2 level damage on side arms makes longarm prof. and versatile specialization an almost must take for envoys, technomancers, and drone mechanics that want to contribute meaningful damage. It seems the only reason they get 1/2 level is to keep the operative from being too much of a combat beast.

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