I want to tell the WotR story but have shied away for now because I am not crazy about high-level play in Pathfinder (especially with mythic rules). However, with the advent of Starfinder, a new option opens up that promises to make high-level play a lot more enjoyable (easier) so I want to give this a try.
Being a ‘lazy’ GM, I want to use as much of the original AP as possible but it still needs to occur in the ‘future’. However, given the existence of Iomedae and the Knights of Golarion and some of the pics in the Core Rule Book like the crusader chaplain in page 90, the spell soldier in page 117, the Iomedaen knight in page 478, and the ‘paladin’ in page 502, this doesn’t seem out of the question. The fact that ‘demonic incursions’ is mentioned in the CRB makes this even more plausible.
So… I want to stay as faithful as possible to the original AP (to minimize the work; I told you I was lazy) but there’s still plenty of work to be done. I’d like to bounce (steal?) ideas off you guys for Luna Sanctus.
Location: it can’t be in the Pact Worlds, otherwise you would have everyone respond to this demonic incursion. I am thinking of a small moon that is pretty much under the radar of everyone because it is not particularly desirable for colonization. It allows for humanoid existence but is relatively small and/or difficult to reach. The reason why people are there is because the moon is the location of a ‘holy something’. This ‘holy something’ is either an ancient temple dedicated to Iomedae or the location of something very significant to the faith. Not sure yet.
This moon does not have to be very big because the AP mainly takes place in Mendev and the Worldwound; the rest of the AP takes place in the Abyss so no issues there.
Timeline: The AP starts in 4713 and the First Crusade started in 4622 so that ‘history can be kept’ (important for all the motivations of the different factions/NPCs) by simply converting 4713 into 317 AG and off we go. No problem.
Converting monsters/NPCs: this shouldn’t be a big deal once the Alien Archive is out. It should only be a matter of selecting the CR of the original encounter relative to the PC’s level (see below) and quickly designing the appropriate challenge in SF rules. Of course, the original intent of the encounter will have to be maintained. I’ll split up the PC levels in the AP so that the PCs reach 20th level somewhere in the 6th book (maybe 4 levels for the first 4 AP books and 2 levels each for the last 2 AP books). I don’t track experience and just bump the PCs when ‘it makes sense’ so the only concern here is making sure the PCs have the ‘right equipment’ and the encounters are ‘challenging’.
Replacing magic with technology/magic also shouldn’t be a big problem. This is science fantasy after all and all the trappings are there.
Thoughts? What am I missing here? Any red flags or things I haven’t considered?
Thanks for any input!
Game on!
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I like the sound of this! Mythic is probably to much to port but it's idea can be used to help the ship combat skills.
Dresen could even be a capital ship instead of a castle.The purity forge could also be it's engine.
Slain demon lords could be used by what's her name to make ships instead of islands.
Sorry I'm not remembering names at the moment.
Edit: the world wound could be a gas giant or black hole and you are claiming the moons or planets orbiting it.
...sounds like I might have to tack on wotw to the end of dead suns now....
Thanks for the input.
I think this thread is just one big spoiler so I won't use it. :)
Using starship combat is something that I have not thought of but would like to incorporate if possible.
Maybe some of the battles (on their way to take Dresden for example) that the PCs 'lead' could be done with the PCs ship attacking enemy ground troops or going off in a dogfight.
I do want to keep most of the action planet side because there's quite a bit of 'traveling encounters' that would be difficult to incorporate if the travel is done in a starship where things really happen at the 'destinations' rather than in the travel itself, unless of course it's direct combat.
I'm not sure if you meant this or not but the main task of the second book could be invading the city of Drezen (planet side) but, instead of having to invade Citadel Drezen and retrieving the Sword of Valor (a banner), the PC would have to liberate an old 'fortress' ship that the demons brought down some time ago.
So the PCs would have to infiltrate an Avenger-class cathedralship, remove the demons inside, and fly it back out to space to rendezvous with the other orbiting ships from the Knights of Golarion.
Now all I need is for Paizo to release some sort of map of an Avenger-class cathedralship...
I'll dig around in WotR soon-ish to see what springs to mind re: Starfinderizing WotR.
Some mechanical considerations:
Mythic power = resolve points. Level advancement bonuses every 3rd level instead of every 5th level.
Instead of magical scales, Terendelev's Scales are the character's starships, Shuttle-class hulls, ones that can become figurines ala figurines of wondrous power. Unlike regular starships, Terendelev's Scales are both quite powerful and use a neural induction interface for their pilot, who is able to take all four ship roles when flying their hybrid minor artifact starships. Due to how stupidly high the skill DCs get on top-tier starships, all checks made via neural induction interface add the captain's Wisdom modifier as an enhancement bonus. They advance in tier alongside their bonded owners' level.
I'm imagining the Worldwound is an immense astrographical feature, the Locustswarm Nebula, which is hemmed in by an ancient barrier system of sanctified moons, some of which have way stations representing the citadels and cities from WotR.
Drezen in spaaaace, perhaps.
Extra resolve points sound fitting for a substitute of mythic power. And quite frankly, it all depends on how powerful you make the demons when you convert them. I'll probably keep the level advancement bonus as they are but maybe think of allowing a 'free' archetype (campaign oriented) to make the PCs feel more powerful than the norm.
I was actually thinking of keeping most of the story planetside (especially the first two books of the AP) but this may have to do more with my hesitation to use starships (gotta learn them rules).
In any case, I look forward to what you can come up with.
Game on!
The lion's share of 'mythic abilities' is tied up in the Terendelev's Scales instead of bound to the characters themselves.
Managing Expectations
One key to converting the only Paizo Mythic Rules AP to Starfinder is establishing expectations. The mythic rules add considerable capabilities as Our Mythic Heroes gain tiers. Very early on they are able to take extra actions, deny actions/force re-rolls on others and otherwise gum up the already delicate works of the actions system. This is of course - to a degree - by design reduced or eliminated in Starfinder through the implementation of guarded steps (instead of the 5-foot step), reactions (instead of attacks of opportunity) and the alterations to full attacks between Pathfinder and Starfinder.
Another key is that one must alter the nature of what it means to be mythic from Pathfinder to Starfinder. The simple steps are easy enough: replace mythic power/day with additional resolve points; and understanding that mythic Starfinder characters are supposed to be innately nastier and harder to kill off than normal Starfinder characters. Instead of +2 to one ability score at every even mythic tier, they gain a level advancement's worth of ability score improvements at every even mythic tier. They also gain an additional Starfinder feat at every odd mythic tier starting with the first tier. Note that even with the overall improvement of feats in Starfinder that mythic versions of these feats are not proposed. Nor will they be, as they have no need to be implemented in the Starfinder conversion.
The other key to converting WotR to Starfinder is embracing its grandeur and scope. On Golarion the Worldwound is a massive geographical feature unique unto itself. For characters traveling by foot, riding a mount - even one so magnificent as a great wyrm dragon - or by means of assorted spells the Worldwound is massive.
Scaling the Worldwound in all its nightmarish grandeur should be retained in Starfinder. And when dealing with Lensman-esque scales, the usual stuff has to be stepped up a notch. The Worldwound is no mere star system, it is an entire nebula. One that within its corrupted soul-devouring heart lurks an inhuman hunger...
POWER LEVELS
It's all a numbers game in the end. If you want to make a 20th level PC with additional resolve points and additional powers be 'darn powerful' then you will have to make the opponents (and rewards) that much harder.
However, if in 'your world' a 20th level PC is already 'darn powerful' then you make challenges (and rewards) accordingly. I prefer this latter method to keep it simpler from a numbers perspective, especially since these are new rules. The fluff will still say that these PCs are 'darn powerful'.
For me, it makes more sense to keep the AP going from level 1 to level 20 with maybe some extra perks here and there.
LOCATION
You make a good point that the Worldwound is massive but it's not that massive. It's roughly 500 miles by 500 miles meaning that a person walking (30') could cross it in 21 days. I know I'm not taking into account terrain, etc but still. It's not that massive.
Now I'll be honest with you and tell that I don't know how big a nebula is but it sounds 'very big', even with the upgraded modes of transportation that SF has.
I still think that a moon or small planet is all that's needed or desired. Another issue if you make this too massive is that everyone in the Pact Worlds and beyond should get involved in addressing this danger and that would dwarf the PCs.
Thanks for the input and I look forward to sharing ideas back and forth.
I've not gotten anywhere close to poking the bad guys' stat blocks, so what I've posited so far is to be taken with that in mind.
Unlike Pathfinder characters, Starfinder characters - generally - start off quite a bit weaker and never attain the raw numbers Pathfinder characters can attain. They'll never get +5 resistance bonuses on all of their saves, they don't add +6 enhancement bonuses and +5 inherent bonuses to all six ability scores and they don't have very much of the rest of Pathfinder's Christmas Tree Effect going for 'em.
Their end-point KAC/EAC hits at best about a 42 or so, perhaps a smidge higher, and that only by priming their Dex to the nth degree which is far from guaranteed. Their save bonuses lag way behind where they're expected to hit in Pathfinder. Not sure about WotR from memory, but I've seen - and written - a great many Pathfinder stat blocks with save DCs ranging from 30 to 50 or higher.
I might well run the critters through the quick conversion process as-written to see where they wind up.
Gorrammit, stupid timer.
"Mr 13" in Pathfinder - using a 20 point buy - spreads his points as evenly as possible. 13s in five scores with a 14 before racial adjustment in their 'primary score'. Far from optimized, but it also leaves no glaring weaknesses. Racial +2 in primary puts that to a 16. 20th level puts that to a 21. Factor in level 20 WotR loot (+11 to all six via belt, headband and a stack of +5 inherent via miracle/wish the party is able to cast at-cost) and we see a final ability score array without factoring in advancing in age category of 32, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24. +10 to primary via Pathfinder Mythic results in 42, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24. (Total +46 ability modifier sum.)
Versatile array in Starfinder - we'll go with a single +2 from race and another +1 from theme - gives us 17, 14, 14, 11, 10, 10. Standard Starfinder advancement results in 21, 20, 20, 18, 10, 10. The proposed 5-bump advancement bonuses for Mythic Starfinder results in 26, 25, 25, 23, 10, 10. Add in the trio of mk 1/mk 2/mk 3 personal enhancements and we wind up at 32 (key), 29 (Con), 27 (Dex if wearing light armor), 23 (Int or Wis; Dex if wearing heavy armor, may be lower a smidge to bump one of the 10s up if optimizing heavy armor/power armor for Dex), 10, 10. (Total +32 ability modifier sum.)
Just in terms of ability scores Pathfinder characters have a massive advantage, all else being equal. :)
re: size of the worldwound - keep in mind that 500 miles x 500 miles is 250,000 square miles - almost the entire land area of California. A 500 mile trip on horseback without terrain modifiers slowing down travel time is a fortnight-length trip (10 days), most likely longer, at least a couple weeks. That's about the same amount of time it takes to make a single Drift run through the Vast (5d6 days). Which is the scale I'd want to see as a player.
re: outside involvement in the Worldwound Nebula: as-scripted WotR already addresses what the movers-n-shakers are up to. The same principle applies when converting to Starfinder. However, some malevolent nebula in the Vast is not likely to be routinely patrolled nor are the Pact Worlds likely in agreement as to how best treat with its occupants. So long as the "fence" holds, it's largely background noise. Until ... ;)
Just in terms of ability scores Pathfinder characters have a massive advantage, all else being equal. :)
Like I said; it's a numbers game, which you are obviously much more knowledgeable about than I am. :)
Whatever method is chosen, the idea is for the PCs to feel above average power-level as compared to their peers. That can be accomplished in many ways. PCs could end up being 20th level when everyone else is 15th level or PCs could end up being 20th level with lots of perks when everyone else is 'just 20th level'.
I don't think the comparison between SF and PF ability arrays is valid because we will be adjusting the demons to SF and not just use them with the stats provided for PF.
re: size of the worldwound - keep in mind that 500 miles x 500 miles is 250,000 square miles - almost the entire land area of California. A 500 mile trip on horseback without terrain modifiers slowing down travel time is a fortnight-length trip (10 days), most likely longer, at least a couple weeks. That's about the same amount of time it takes to make a single Drift run through the Vast (5d6 days). Which is the scale I'd want to see as a player.
re: outside involvement in the Worldwound Nebula: as-scripted WotR already addresses what the movers-n-shakers are up to. The same principle applies when converting to Starfinder....
I think an important difference is that traveling across the Worldwound is an adventure in and of itself. In fact, many of the subplots or missions deal exactly with this theme.
Traveling through the Drift is 'bland' or at most can only have wandering monster type encounters. Nothing lives in the Drift; there are no settlements or fortresses in the Drift.
In comparing Golarion to the Pact Worlds, the Worldwound is only a small part of Golarion so making the 'future Worldwound' a moon/small planet (outside of the Pact Worlds) feels right.
While I value your opinion, I still think a small moon/planet is the better setting for this campaign.
Thanks again for your input.
Maybe instead of a world wound, we have a "space wound". A space where drift doesn't reliably work and demons live on scattered floating islands that have been tethered together. The whole place has a weak atmosphere, but individual islands typically have earth-like gravity and atmosphere. So, it's close to a demon version of the diaspora. For ease of writing, this takes place in a nearby star system.
The demons still haven't completely cracked space travel, but the space wound has been steadily expanding in size, swallowing up assorted planets and moons in the system it's in. The heroes live on a planet that is about to be swallowed by the wound. They have been sending crusades into it to slow it down, but so far slowing it is all they have accomplished.
It sounds like the upcoming Starfinder Pact Worlds will have some info very applicable to this campaign.
New archetypes for every class, including the Star Knight, Skyfire Centurion, and Divine Champion.