IT WAS JUST A FLESH WOUND!


General Discussion


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As far as I can tell, the black knight from Monty Python was a fairly high-level Starfinder PC.
At high levels, if someone attacks you with a relatively low damage weapon, such as an Ember Flame Doshko, it takes a lot of hits to get through your SP to your HP. The same Ember Flame Doshko also has the Wound critical effect, which makes you dismember the enemy on a critical hit, rolling on a table to see which bodypart the enemy loses.
So, if someone uses an Ember Flame Doshko to attack a high level PC and are fairly lucky with their critical hits, the PC can lose both arms and both legs before losing even a single point of HP, only ever losing SP in the process, with that stamina being recoverable by simply resting for 10 minutes.
Let's call it a draw!


Sure, but aren't you still missing an arm or two?


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I don't see the problem...


The problem could also be in regard to this kind of situations in the plain definition of Stamina Points given in the Core Rulebook in Chapter 1: Overview: "Stamina Points represent how much damage you can take before you're actually hurt, while Hit Points represent how badly hurt you can be before you fall unconscious or die."


and yet the crit effects system doesn't care whether you're dealing HP damage or just stamina damage. It's really weird.

That said, a prosthetic limb is available in town for a measly 100 credits, and for 50 credits more it can even come with extra storage, so really losing a limb isn't that concerning in the long run. Kinda sucks if you're wielding a big weapon or take multiple crits, but in the long run not so bad.


Shinigami02 wrote:

and yet the crit effects system doesn't care whether you're dealing HP damage or just stamina damage. It's really weird.

That said, a prosthetic limb is available in town for a measly 100 credits, and for 50 credits more it can even come with extra storage, so really losing a limb isn't that concerning in the long run. Kinda sucks if you're wielding a big weapon or take multiple crits, but in the long run not so bad.

Except for some reason, a Hideaway limb isn't a Prosthetic limb. Getting a Prosthetic limb with that kind of functionality costs 1450c. For some reason. I guess making space in a meat arm is just easier than doing it in metal and plastic. Or something.


Huh, you're right. Yeah, that is weird.

Scarab Sages

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In six out of eight Star Wars movies, someone loses a limb with a single lightsaber swing. Most of them survive it without any issues, other than getting some replacement parts.

It's a trope of the genre, and the stamina issue only applies to PCs. NPCs are built using different rules and have no stamina to worry about. PCs are supposed to made of sterner stuff. And you know, Luke seemed to be okay after he took a quick rest on the falcon after he was "disarmed".


Devasura wrote:
The problem could also be in regard to this kind of situations in the plain definition of Stamina Points given in the Core Rulebook in Chapter 1: Overview: "Stamina Points represent how much damage you can take before you're actually hurt, while Hit Points represent how badly hurt you can be before you fall unconscious or die."

Yeah, that's what bugs me here.

Stamina Points make the abstraction work worse thematically than in Pathfinder. It's a downgrade in that regard.


If I want to play a game with semi-plausible dismemberments et al, there are a few dozen available. Space opera plus magic isn't where I expect to find that. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect the stamina/HP divide provides the scaffolding for a lot of interesting ways to introduce some rules that make damage a bit more realistic, rules and that they ended up cutting these from the CRB to simply the core rules as much as possible.

E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if they had something like the following rules in the beta draft:

--1. If you have less than maximum HPs, you gain the Wounded condition.

Wounded: You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

(For creatures with just HPs: make half their HPs Stamina points, and the other half HPs (with odd points going to HP).)

--2. Critical hits do all of their damage to HPs, bypassing Stamina. Critical hits that do no HP damage (because of DR and the like) do not trigger special critical effects.

Rules like that would give get around weird features like those mentioned in the OP, and make the stamina/HP distinction play a more substantive role.


I'm glad that they cut such things. Realism and Starfinder don't need to go to bed together. If they did, we wouldn't have a game to play what with lacking FTL drives, working magic, and so forth.

YMMV.


The Mad Comrade wrote:

I'm glad that they cut such things. Realism and Starfinder don't need to go to bed together. If they did, we wouldn't have a game to play what with lacking FTL drives, working magic, and so forth.

YMMV.

I'm not talking about realism. I'm talking about Stamina failing to meet its' thematic goal of splitting Hit Points into "you're not actually hurt if you take damage to this pool" and "if you get hurt here, this means you're actually hurt". The thematic split simply doesn't work when you look at it.


Only specific critical effects and perhaps certain class abilities are capable of inflicting bleed (not counting monsters, but we don't have any outside of a minute few until mid-fall).

By the same degree of realism every attack that doesn't self-cauterize, is non-lethal or is not bludgeoning damage should inflict some degree of bleed. They don't, ergo it's not worth getting caught up in realism on an à la carte basis.

Not every wounding/severe wound critical (a) succeeds (resisted by successful saving throw) and (b) dismembers.

Edit: within this system it is possible to get wholly dismembered and survive ... but it is incredibly unlikely given the combat mechanics required to align in that specific configuration.

First there's the matter of surviving four critical hits, an unlikely event in its own right.

Then all four saves against dismemberment have to fail, also highly unlikely for many characters.

Characters that are likely to fail all four are probably going to be long gone before their fourth limb comes off.

Edit 2: How is a divide between stamina and hit points worse that just hit points? They're the same thing in all practical ways save that stamina is recovered with a 10-minute rest while spending 1 RP. PF hp are not significantly different. With all the discussions about how implausible it is that any person could absorb a tank round to the face via raw hp, now it's not acceptable if their stamina is representing the bulk of PF character's hp not representing raw durability but scrapes, nicks, flesh wounds et al?

I don't buy it.


The Mad Comrade wrote:

Only specific critical effects and perhaps certain class abilities are capable of inflicting bleed (not counting monsters, but we don't have any outside of a minute few until mid-fall).

By the same degree of realism every attack that doesn't self-cauterize, is non-lethal or is not bludgeoning damage should inflict some degree of bleed. They don't, ergo it's not worth getting caught up in realism on an à la carte basis.

Not every wounding/severe wound critical (a) succeeds (resisted by successful saving throw) and (b) dismembers.

Edit: within this system it is possible to get wholly dismembered and survive ... but it is incredibly unlikely given the combat mechanics required to align in that specific configuration.

First there's the matter of surviving four critical hits, an unlikely event in its own right.

Then all four saves against dismemberment have to fail, also highly unlikely for many characters.

Characters that are likely to fail all four are probably going to be long gone before their fourth limb comes off.

Edit 2: How is a divide between stamina and hit points worse that just hit points? They're the same thing in all practical ways save that stamina is recovered with a 10-minute rest while spending 1 RP. PF hp are not significantly different. With all the discussions about how implausible it is that any person could absorb a tank round to the face via raw hp, now it's not acceptable if their stamina is representing the bulk of PF character's hp not representing raw durability but scrapes, nicks, flesh wounds et al?

I don't buy it.

My thematic issue with Stamina is that the new divide is the less abstract than HP. Former HP was a vague combination of everything - luck, stamina, actual damage, whatever else. Now, there's a clearly spelled out split between "this is luck and stamina" and "this is actual damage", which makes mechanics inconsistent with that divide much more jarring.


Ok, I get where you're coming from now. Thanks for the clarification.

It's pretty easy just to lump it all together under hit points with the understanding that the 'stamina portion' is relatively easy to recover whilst the 'hit point portion' is a more serious matter.

Maybe magic does not easily heal hp damage, requiring medical care to ameliorate, or something?


it's the other way around actually, magic to heal HP is plentiful, but there's not much that will heal Stamina mid-combat.


Shinigami02 wrote:
it's the other way around actually, magic to heal HP is plentiful, but there's not much that will heal Stamina mid-combat.

Thought that hp healed over max dumps into stamina ... oookkaaaay ... yeah, that might get a house-rule slapped on.

I'll have to test-drive it more to wrap my brain around it.

Liberty's Edge

They represent different things. Stamina is energy and luck, not physical wellness, while Hit Points are indeed actual physical wellness.

So Stamina recovers entirely with a good night's sleep, or even with a short rest if you're lucky/determined (ie: spend Resolve). Or if you get inspired by a particularly inspiring person (Envoy ability). But magic that heals people doesn't do a thing to raise your spirits, energy, or luck.

Hit Points, meanwhile, heal slowly naturally but can be healed via magic fairly readily.

That all seems logical to me.

I do agree that losing limbs when you still have stamina is weird thematically (though, as noted, Luke did seem fine surprisingly quickly after losing his hand), though.


Adrenaline can do funny things. There are recorded instances of soldiers losing limbs to grenades and continuing to fight, seemingly without noticing. Granted, these are dwarfed by the number of times a soldier loses a hand and simply dies, but PCs are supposed to be exceptional.


The Mad Comrade wrote:

I'm glad that they cut such things. Realism and Starfinder don't need to go to bed together. If they did, we wouldn't have a game to play what with lacking FTL drives, working magic, and so forth.

YMMV.

I agree my MMV.

Every game waves their hands and says "nothing to see here" in some areas for either simplicity or fun. And there are many different game styles and groups out there that makes it difficult for one system to be loved by all.
But for me this is one area I really am beginning to not like about the game. And a reason why I take the book back for a refund (a friend owns a store and lets me do so if the book does not look like it has been read or damaged in any way.)

The Envoy heal stamina ability Inspiring Boost page 62 should be read and thought about. It basically says you can signal a person who had taken damage from a significant foe ... and then they heal stamina by some amount.
So what is this signal? And how does it work? Is the envoy just saying Oh you did not get hit as hard as you thought? Or is it something else, like magic etc.
If it is simple mind bending logic saying that you are not injured and thus you are not, should not any one who rolls very high intimidate do massive stamina damage as they convince you are are worthless and not as strong as you actually are?

Edit to fix / to ?
MDC


Deadmanwalking wrote:

They represent different things. Stamina is energy and luck, not physical wellness, while Hit Points are indeed actual physical wellness.

So Stamina recovers entirely with a good night's sleep, or even with a short rest if you're lucky/determined (ie: spend Resolve). Or if you get inspired by a particularly inspiring person (Envoy ability). But magic that heals people doesn't do a thing to raise your spirits, energy, or luck.

Hit Points, meanwhile, heal slowly naturally but can be healed via magic fairly readily.

That all seems logical to me.

I do agree that losing limbs when you still have stamina is weird thematically (though, as noted, Luke did seem fine surprisingly quickly after losing his hand), though.

I'm getting a better view of the design feel re: hp and stamina thanks to this thread. Great stuff everyone!


Easy enough to let part of the Crit go to HP though.
and other harsh affects.
aa


LeeSw wrote:

Easy enough to let part of the Crit go to HP though.

and other harsh affects.
aa

Something along the lines of " critical hits deal damage to both hit points and stamina " - rolling either (a) damage once while applying to HP and SP equally, or (b) roll two sets of damage dice with all applicable bonuses, applying the lower sum to HP, the larger sum to SP - " while any critical effects take effect as normal. A target without SP suffers double damage as normal for critical hits. " ?

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