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Due to recent changes in rules, it appears I have to train out of the Lore Warden Class.
What classes can provide access to all Knowledge skills as class skills plus a minimum of 4 skill points per level with a Full BAB progression?
Thank you for your time in advance.
EDIT: Race is Undine and that is an immutable facet of the character, so please do not recommend 'playing human' or raising 'INT' for additional skills, thank you.
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Edit: Arutema ninja'd me, and even caught something I forgot about.
Barbarian, Bloodrager, Cavalier, Unchained Monk, Swashbuckler, and Gunslinger all get 4 skill points per level with full BAB. Avenger specialization Vigilante gets 6. The First Mother's Fang Cavalier archetype gets all knowledge skills as class skills, but is only available to Nagaji characters. Unfortunately, you may need to dip into another class to get what you are looking for.
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Unchained Perfect Scholar Monk -Nethys link
Thank you for that. I have a Level 1 Vanara Unchained Monk who took the alternate racial trait that makes all Knowledges class skills. I think I'm due for a rebuild ^_^
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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Thomas, my best guess is that the skills are now listed and that the nerf bat to the CMB bonuses (as per brawler now) has most moving away from the Archtype. This on top of not getting Combat Expertise (until 6th level) and losing an extra feat at second level, the former instead having the character get feats as if he had that feat.
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Yes.
Because that thread got locked, I attempted to step away from the discussion points that appeared to get it locked (namely a back-and-forth on what Lore Warden gives and doesn't give, and the impact of that, and how it is applied).
I am attempting to discover ways to make lemonade out of my lemons without touching the 'third rail' and was trying to see why I looked at the Archetype in the first place.
Monk would be an interesting choice, however the character in question already has a level of Oracle, and I'm trying to figure out things that would allow the wearing of armor, since I was trying to build a 'Swiss Army Knife' cross between 'heal/support' and 'variable front-line/party defense/melee utility'.
It will require burning a Boon I picked up at GenCon, but well worth it, I guess, to avoid having to wait for determination on what retraining is allowed, how it is allowed, what's considered a valid retrain, what is not. That does not require re-hashing here, it's already closed one thread, and I'd prefer it not happen here, too.
Many thanks for the insight thus far, still welcoming more!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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The character I had didn't change much, so I am keeping as is. He looses Mobility (and Dodge that he had earlier) and had to choose a better/replaced feat at fifth level. I had not really looked at the CMB portion of it and was not bothered by the changes.
To look at it from a rebuild perspective, I am not sure what I would do, but would need to stay a Fighter to compliment my entry into the Living Monolith PrC, but still need ranks for the Knowledge skills needed for the
PrC regs.
Sorry for dredging out the sludge, ignore me, carry on... carry on.
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I got the sense the other thread was locked so that they could have some time to read through it post-Gencon. I mean, the statement was "locking this for now," not any comment on the contents of the thread.
My recommendation for now would be to... remain a Lore Warden for now. You don't have to stop using the old Lore Warden until the new one appears in the PRD. Don't waste an extremely valuable rebuild boon rebuilding a character before you need to. Play the character that currently works the way you intended until the time comes that you need to rebuild (if that time comes), and use the rebuild boon if the rebuild granted because of the change doesn't go far enough for you.
Avenger Vigilante is a good alternative, as Vigilantes have lots of interesting options. It doesn't grant all knowledge skills. By my reckoning, given your level of Oracle, you'd still be missing Arcana, Geography, and Nature, but you would have the others. There's lots of room for customization with a Vigilante as well.
Based on the criteria in this thread, though, I have to agree that the new Lore Warden still looks like the best option. You lose Appraise as a class skill. That costs you 3 points in a single skill. That's... an inconvenience, but it's still entirely possible to have a good Appraise just by devoting skill points to it. Granted, you can no longer use your extra skill points to do so, and that's a bit annoying.
Otherwise, the new Lore Warden is a full-BAB class, it gets light armor proficiency, it gets all knowledge skills in class, it gets d10 hit dice, it gets a bonus feat at first level, and it's still got a lot of utility.
Have you also considered the possibility of just sticking with a 1-level dip into Lore Warden, then going with a different martial class after that? 1 level of Lore Warden for the knowledge skills, bonus feat, etc.
Then go Brawler for Martial Flexibility, which seems to fit "variable front-line/party defense/melee utility." Improved Unarmed Strike opens up using Martial Flexibility to pick up style feats or maneuver feats as appropriate for the fight. A second level of Brawler grants another bonus feat, which you could use for Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting. Or you could take a second level of Lore Warden to qualify without actually having the feat.
Now you can Martial Flexibility into any Improved Maneuver, as needed. You have 4 skill points a level, with a minor limitation that 2 (or 4) of them need to be in knowledge skills, linguistics, or spell craft.
Again, I don't know if your plan was more Oracle levels, or sticking with Lore Warden the rest of the way. Going Oracle 1/Lore Warden 2/Brawler 8 would give a very versatile melee character who can wear armor, flurry, is not limited to a single maneuver, and who has access to all of the knowledge skills. The only glaring thing missing from that build is Appraise as a class skill, which really should not be a reason to scrap an entire idea.
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I got the sense the other thread was locked so that they could have some time to read through it post-Gencon. I mean, the statement was "locking this for now," not any comment on the contents of the thread.
My recommendation for now would be to... remain a Lore Warden for now. You don't have to stop using the old Lore Warden until the new one appears in the PRD. Don't waste an extremely valuable rebuild boon rebuilding a character before you need to. Play the character that currently works the way you intended until the time comes that you need to rebuild (if that time comes), and use the rebuild boon if the rebuild granted because of the change doesn't go far enough for you.
Avenger Vigilante is a good alternative, as Vigilantes have lots of interesting options. It doesn't grant all knowledge skills. By my reckoning, given your level of Oracle, you'd still be missing Arcana, Geography, and Nature, but you would have the others. There's lots of room for customization with a Vigilante as well.
Based on the criteria in this thread, though, I have to agree that the new Lore Warden still looks like the best option. You lose Appraise as a class skill. That costs you 3 points in a single skill. That's... an inconvenience, but it's still entirely possible to have a good Appraise just by devoting skill points to it. Granted, you can no longer use your extra skill points to do so, and that's a bit annoying.
Otherwise, the new Lore Warden is a full-BAB class, it gets light armor proficiency, it gets all knowledge skills in class, it gets d10 hit dice, it gets a bonus feat at first level, and it's still got a lot of utility.
Have you also considered the possibility of just sticking with a 1-level dip into Lore Warden, then going with a different martial class after that? 1 level of Lore Warden for the knowledge skills, bonus feat, etc.
Then go Brawler for Martial Flexibility, which seems to fit "variable front-line/party defense/melee utility." Improved Unarmed Strike opens up using Martial...
The problem is I'm in a bit of a 'time-crunch'.
The character is supposed to be in a PbP starting *today*, and they are currently at 1/1, needing to be trained to L3.
Luck was with me and I managed to acquire a limited-rebuild boon that allows one to retrain one level at a significant discount.
It does not, however, cover two levels, nor did the breakdown at last report count most of the things lost with Lore Warden as 'rebuild worthy', even with the new version.
Had not considered going 1/1/1, though. Will have to run the numbers and test it out.
Thank you for the suggestion.
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That makes a little more sense. I was reading it as one of the full rebuild boons. Were you planning to take more Oracle levels at any point? Could you move one of those up to third, or does that create issues for the build?
I really like the versatility of Brawler. Even Oracle 9/Lore Warden 1/Brawler 1 gains a lot from the two dip levels (at the cost of spell casting, but since you already have a LW level that seems less of a concern).
Anyway, the new Lore Warden is just as good of a 1 level dip as the old Lore Warden was (minus Appraise). It's the 2 level dips or career Lore Wardens that have problems.
EDIT: Also, I've been assuming that you have a 13 INT to take things beyond Combat Expertise. If you don't, then Brawler has the added benefit of Brawler's Cunning and eliminating that requirement.
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I'm still failing to see what your issue is. What is it that you need to accomplish? Were you planning on taking many levels of lore warden? Does the new lore warden not cover your needs and if not why? Why would there be a need for total retraining once the new Lore warden becomes the only lore warden? It's just very unclear to me what you issue actually is and what you're actually trying to accomplish.
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The problem is I'm in a bit of a 'time-crunch'.
Contents in this book will appear in an upcoming update of the Pathfinder Reference Document, at which point the versions in this book will replace any earlier versions (see the list below); at that time, characters are expected to update to use the new rules or rebuild as laid out in Chapter 2 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide. Modified gear—including ioun stones whose resonance powers changed—can be sold back at its full market price. Further updates and allowances specific to a particular character option may appear in the Pathfinder Society General Discussion forum on paizo.com. Until then, both versions of the character option are legal for play.
As I understand it, you have some time before you must implement these changes?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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The character is supposed to be in a PbP starting *today*, and they are currently at 1/1, needing to be trained to L3.
Luck was with me and I managed to acquire a limited-rebuild boon that allows one to retrain one level at a significant discount.
September 2nd, not today.
Which brings up a slightly different question.
If he were to play through the module, could he do the rebuild/retrain after the conclusion (since the change is likely to hit during the PbP) but before leveling?
The character is 1 XP short of next level. Even going slow track, the module would level them. Retraining cost is based on level.
Do the rules allow retraining at current level after the adventure without incurring the additional cost that would be incurred by applying the XP earned?