Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Because of the cost of a communicator. It is obvious to me that the charges it used are different than the charges used to power a laser pistol to fire a beam 30'.
There is a logic gap here I agree. But let's not be riculous.
Just keep them separate and wait for a FAQ or clarification.
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Because of the cost of a communicator. It is obvious to me that the charges it used are different than the charges used to power a laser pistol to fire a beam 30'.
There is a logic gap here I agree. But let's not be riculous.
Just keep them separate and wait for a FAQ or clarification.
It is obvious in the rules you can do thus. It is not obvious the charges are different because thats not what the rules state. Until they have an FAQ i will play it as this in Society, RAW. In home campaigns zYou have to purchase batteries separate.
It is very clear that batteries can be used for any item. Armor, weapon etc. So buy RAW I can buy a comm unit for 7 credits take the battery out and throw it in my gun.
Now keep this in mind batteries have nothing to do with the final product from said weapon. The batteries JUST POWER the weapon. Some weapons require stronger batteries. Its like using AAA vs AA vs 9 volt. The batteries don't actually determine the end result. The weapon has a power core of some sort that handles this. The battery just produces the power for the core to function.
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I imagine we're going to get some kind of clarification in the next round of errata FAQ....this thread, and a few others regarding battery craziness have been getting a lot of attention.
There are also few other important issues (check the Rules Questions subforum mostly), beside batteries, that should be officially clarified and are not in the FAQ yet.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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It is wrong to think a cell phone battery can run a car. It cannot start it. It cannot keep a car running. But hey both use batteries.
This is a real world example of RAW. Stop trying to take advantage of a mistake.
Can't show you in the rules because they lack clarity. If anyone comes my table and tries take a battery out a comm unit and put it in a weapon or armor I will scrape all the gear. Comm, battery, weapon, and armor. And I GM SFS.
Once a FAQ or errata or something from an offficial source comes out than I will follow that. Even if it is as the rules stand now. But this will be changed. I am certain of it.
So don't come to my table and try to do this. I consider it cheating and will not allow it.
RAW or not.
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While I think that there are certainly battery issues in SF that need FAQ attention and SFS needs to answer this question about recharging availability as soon as possible. The fuss about buying a com unit and then taking out its battery to power a gun is moot. Comm units, indeed all technological items don't have batteries. Please read the Capacity section on page 218. These items all hold charges and can be recharged with a battery. It's not really vague, they have an internal "battery", this can be filled with other batteries, but isn't itself something hat can be removed to use in other places. There are certainly some issues like why these particular items can take charges from batteries but only magic will let you consolidate charges between batteries otherwise, but they can't be used for anything else because they don't come out.
If you would like to keep arguing the point please first compare the same section on page 170 first and then tell me why they read so differently, that one talks about simply holding charges and recharging from batteries while the other talks about putting batteries in it.
Thank you, hope that didn't read as aggressive, it's late and I just wanted to make myself clear.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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>>Can a character with a Backup Generator recharge other PCs batteries, or does that fall into cheating?
I see no problem with this. I consider it the same as one PC using their person wand of CLW on another PC.
>>Using a battery from an NPCs rifle/pistol instead of your own?
I see no problem with this action. I use arrows I find in adventures all the time. A battery is a consumable in my mind. One thing to keep in mind, right now a PC would have no idea how many charages are in the battery. (Which I think is silly. I would let the PCs know if they asked.)
>>Transfer Charge to/from an NPC's Pistol to yours, etc.
I see no problem with this as well. Same example of using arrows. However, in case, it is a PC using a resource available to them; ie a spell.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Page 430, under planetary communication. Only place it shows up. You'd think it would be in the chapter about armor but...(shrug)All armor includes a personal comm unit. I'd assume it's recharged at the same time the armor's environmental protections are recharged and, if I'm not mistaken, I believe those can be recharged for free.I keep seeing the statement online that all armor includes a personal comm unit, but despite multiple searches I've been unable to find this in the book. Can someone please point me to where in the book this is from? Thanks!
Thank you. I kept looking all over for this.
>>Transfer Charge to/from an NPC's Pistol to yours, etc.
I see no problem with this as well. Same example of using arrows. However, in case, it is a PC using a resource available to them; ie a spell.
Yes to the first two, but for this one, look at the spell transfer charge.
It would seem that taking the battery from one pistol and exchange it with another is no problem, but simply transfering the charge is... magic.
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Here are the 2 sentences Micheal Smith is conflating to get his cheese. It is talking about 2 different battery types.
Page 218
"... If an item doesn’t specify a
usage, it needs very little power and has an internal battery
designed to function for decades or even centuries without
recharging.
Items with a specified usage use a battery that
comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be
recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations
(see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced
(see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
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Here are the 2 sentences Micheal Smith is conflating to get his cheese. It is talking about 2 different battery types.
Page 218
"... If an item doesn’t specify a
usage, it needs very little power and has an internal battery
designed to function for decades or even centuries without
recharging.
Items with a specified usage use a battery that
comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be
recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations
(see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced
(see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
"Items with a specified usage use a battery that come fully charged when purchased. Which is exactly what I have been saying the whole time. A personal comm unit comes with a battery that as a specified usage 1/hour. This means it uses 1 charge per hour. With a battery of 80 charges means that it can go 80 hours before needing a recharge. This is no way shape or form references the first sentence stated. So the first sentence posted is irrelevant in this matter. So there for you can swap out the battery between a weapon of the personal com unit.
Once again for people that refuse to read what I have posted.
The rules are very clear in how batteries are to work. This isn't the issue. Its the cost. The fact that you can buy a comm unit for 7 credits and it comes with a battery that has 80 charges within it. And you can put it in your weapon. Also that doing this is still a cheaper solution then recharging. I already gave a simple proposed solution. I think you all need to reread the rulebook and stop trying to fix something that isn't and issue.
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He's not exactly conflating...he's just taking advantage of an awkward RAW situation, that equates technological item batteries with ammunition batteries. And yes, currently there is nothing that says you CAN'T take the battery out of a personal comm, and use it to charge up a weapon battery, or use in a weapon, since it does say that they can clearly be "replaced", and refers you to the ammunition table.
That being said. There's also nothing that says you couldn't then just go and sell said battery for 39 credits...from a 7 credit item. Again, I point to the part of the PFS/SFS society FAQ page that prohibits creative rules use for infinite wealth or power. By equating the two batteries, that would support "infinite wealth", thus although RAW, it's clearly not RAI (Rules as intended). By reverse logic then, if you AREN'T allowed to use this loophole for infinite wealth, then it follows that the 80 charge battery in a personal comm isn't the same as used in weapons.
So....yes, it's cheating, since you'd be ignoring the Errata/FAQ that ammends the rulebook to prevent things like this, although they haven't established an official fix for this exact situation yet.
Mr. Hillman has aluded to the fact that they're aware of battery shennanigans, so I'm assuming they're going to be fixing this. I'd also hope they readjust battery prices to be more in line with other ammunition types, but I'll settle for a ruleset that doesn't get munchkinned.
I won't be doing any of that. I know players that will take advantage of this.
Yes I agree that being able to do this is absurd. In home campaigns I will have a rule that states when you buy an item it WILL NOT come with a battery. You must purchase batteries separately. Problem solved. This may bring other issues, but another time.
I am saying until something states otherwise I will abide by the CRB. If they change this rule in SFS then I will enforce the errata.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The fact that you can buy a comm unit for 7 credits and it comes with a battery that has 80 charges within it. And you can put it in your weapon. Also that doing this is still a cheaper solution then recharging. I already gave a simple proposed solution. I think you all need to reread the rulebook and stop trying to fix something that isn't and issue.
This is where we will respectfully disagree.
I will not allow a player to do this. Period.
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Okay, let's take this from a different angle.
If someone is worried they're going to be 'dinged' for charges to their cel-phone(read: comm), then they're going to *keep it off* or *not get one at all*.
This indirectly spurs folks to not be able to communicate out of direct line of sight, which is a passive-aggressive jerk method of table control.
"Oh, sorry, my comm's not on, have to save the charges so I don't get charged for a recharge, because I can't afford it."
Granted, this will be an issue at lower levels rather than higher, so this might be magnifying the concern, but is there anything we can learn from this to prevent this sort of thinking without having a 'battery tax'?
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Ya'll, please cool down. We aren't trying to take advantage of the system or create infinite wealth loops, or cheat our way to battery craziness. People are pointing out that, BY THE RULES, these problems already exist and some clarity would be appreciated. It's not trying to squeeze some cheese from the rules - it's asking for the developers to address the concern created by the rules themselves.
For all the folks refusing to allow it and creating houserules, good for you. It's obvious it needs to be addressed, and that's fine for you to do. But for society play, or groups that prefer to go without houserules, we still need some official attention. Because in the rules as written, all of the "shennanigans" in this thread are rules legal, as absurd as that may be.
Going by RAI when the RAW is in error is not housreules.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I agree there is things to be worked out. I don't want to make the game harder and I am willing to let some things that I consider trivial slide until an answer is given to us.
You bring up valid points about the transfer of wealth and the carrying of things from one adventure to another. Starfinder is a different game so maybe we need to think about it a little bit of different light when considering organized play.
I am just glad I don't get to make the decisions. I am sure I would not be very popular! :)
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Except it's explicitly stated that in SFS all items come fully loaded, either battery or rounds. It's the only reason my soldier has ammo in his sidearm is that they came with the gun.
Not at all being a jerk. Especially if that is how the CRB is written. Again it states that batteries can be interchanged between weapons and equipment. Show me where it states that the battery you get in a personal comm unit can't work in a weapon that can hold 80+ charges.
Gary - no one is looking for a way around things, we are simply pointing out a serious flaw with the system in regards to batteries. Quit being all high an mighty and assuming thats what we are doing. We are merely stating and issue and want some clarification. Yea gear and weapon and armor are different. But the batteries aren't.
Again my solution is you have to buy batteries separate. Now there could be exceptions. Level 1 characters are not going to be able to buy a battery for the their comm unit, so then the first time you buy one it comes with a battery. After that they don't come with one.
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And any GM that doesn't follow rules as written, in an attempt to limit players, if a cheat. There are lots of examples of "That shouldn't be how that works" but you have to allow it. We follow Rules as Written, Not Rules as Gary interprets them.
It is wrong to think a cell phone battery can run a car. It cannot start it. It cannot keep a car running. But hey both use batteries.
This is a real world example of RAW. Stop trying to take advantage of a mistake.
Can't show you in the rules because they lack clarity. If anyone comes my table and tries take a battery out a comm unit and put it in a weapon or armor I will scrape all the gear. Comm, battery, weapon, and armor. And I GM SFS.
Once a FAQ or errata or something from an offficial source comes out than I will follow that. Even if it is as the rules stand now. But this will be changed. I am certain of it.
So don't come to my table and try to do this. I consider it cheating and will not allow it.
RAW or not.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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And any GM that doesn't follow rules as written, in an attempt to limit players, if a cheat. There are lots of examples of "That shouldn't be how that works" but you have to allow it. We follow Rules as Written, Not Rules as Gary interprets them.
It is wrong to think a cell phone battery can run a car. It cannot start it. It cannot keep a car running. But hey both use batteries.
This is a real world example of RAW. Stop trying to take advantage of a mistake.
Can't show you in the rules because they lack clarity. If anyone comes my table and tries take a battery out a comm unit and put it in a weapon or armor I will scrape all the gear. Comm, battery, weapon, and armor. And I GM SFS.
Once a FAQ or errata or something from an offficial source comes out than I will follow that. Even if it is as the rules stand now. But this will be changed. I am certain of it.
So don't come to my table and try to do this. I consider it cheating and will not allow it.
RAW or not.
I understand what you are saying and realize the position I am in.
I believe there is more than enough ambiguity in the rules as they are written now to support both sides.|
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GMs are compelled to run-as-written, not run by rules-as-written.
At no time may a GM ignore rules clarifications.
Until officially clarified, GMs should use their best judgement regarding confusing or contradictory rules text and players should refrain from creatively interpreting the rules to their own benefit.
>>Using a battery from an NPCs rifle/pistol instead of your own?
I see no problem with this action. I use arrows I find in adventures all the time. A battery is a consumable in my mind. One thing to keep in mind, right now a PC would have no idea how many charages are in the battery. (Which I think is silly. I would let the PCs know if they asked.)
It would be reasonable to assume that batteries would either have some kind of indicator showing how many charges they have left, or that when you load them into a weapon it would show charge status of the battery.
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I'm just annoyed by the whole batteries/charges/recharging concept in general. It's the one thing that has made me less enthusiastic for Starfinder than I should be. I'm a detailed-oriented person and a stickler for things like encumbrance, but I just wish the devs had given this battery area a "rules-light" treatment. I just can't see the fun in tracking the minutiae. It's almost equivalent to a "shoe-leather" tracker that makes PCs buy new boots after x-number of days of walking--it'd be realistic, but I'm glad we don't do it.
Starfinder Society Developer
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Who'd have thought the Energizer / Duracell wars continued into the far far far future....
OK folks. It's clear that batteries / recharging are a hot topic item right now. I've been paying attention to the discussion, but haven't hopped in yet, because I don't have a full scope of answers on the numerous items brought up here.
Rest assured, I've raised these items with other members of the Organized Play team, as well as the Starfinder Leader Designer (the illustrious Owen). I'm hoping that we'll be able to answer some of these in the near future.
While I understand that I'm not giving the best answer, I want to make sure that we have all our ducks lined up before giving an official ruling. As many people have brought up in this thread, there's a lot of different aspects to this discussion, let alone the impact to the expected wealth curve and economy of the game. Sufficed to say, I have a list of items that I'll be reviewing with the necessary parties, and getting the appropriate feedback on. Once everyone internally is agreed, I'll be sure to get that info out to everyone ASAP.
Thanks for your patience in this folks. I just want to get it right with the first clarification/errata! :)
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One result of the battery charge rules that I have seen in play so far is that PCs only ever use their batteries for the first encounter. After that we strip the batteries from our opponents guns and use them for the rest of the encounter.
After all, consumables found in the course of an adventure can be freely used without effecting your chronicle sheet, and batteries are consumables. Its stupid, but I am also of the opinion that having to pay to recharge batteries is counter intuitive and anti-fun.
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One result of the battery charge rules that I have seen in play so far is that PCs only ever use their batteries for the first encounter. After that we strip the batteries from our opponents guns and use them for the rest of the encounter.
After all, consumables found in the course of an adventure can be freely used without effecting your chronicle sheet, and batteries are consumables. Its stupid, but I am also of the opinion that having to pay to recharge batteries is counter intuitive and anti-fun.
Provided one isn't in a 'zombie apocalypse scenario' where NPCs are important to have to take hits for the team, this also helps out by eliminating the potential for them to strike back with their weapons if they have no power.
Good thinking, will have to remember this.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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One result of the battery charge rules that I have seen in play so far is that PCs only ever use their batteries for the first encounter. After that we strip the batteries from our opponents guns and use them for the rest of the encounter.
After all, consumables found in the course of an adventure can be freely used without effecting your chronicle sheet, and batteries are consumables. Its stupid, but I am also of the opinion that having to pay to recharge batteries is counter intuitive and anti-fun.
Provided one isn't in a 'zombie apocalypse scenario' where NPCs are important to have to take hits for the team, this also helps out by eliminating the potential for them to strike back with their weapons if they have no power.
Good thinking, will have to remember this.
In most of these scenarios, we take the guns as well, so it is a bit of a moot point.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I figure if you're anywhere civilized, there's a socket around somewhere to recharge for free. On an uncharted desert planet? No. On a ship? Yes (maybe not Brethedan or Eoxian). In a mining town on Akiton? Maybe, but it might also short out your batteries. Absalom station? Every 15 feet.
It should take a minute per charge at most, probably less. So maybe not when you're in a rush, but the rest of the time it shouldn't be something to worry about.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Between all the comparison of comm batteries and gun batteries, I have to wonder, how does that compare to a starship?
If comm batteries are way too weak to recharge a gun, doesn't it stand to reason that a typical spaceship doesn't even notice the tiny bit of power used to recharge a gun?
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It stands to reason, but is contradicted by the rules.
Recharging Stations
Most settlements of any significant size have public recharging stations for batteries and power cells. To recharge the full capacity of a spent battery or power cell takes 1 round per charge and costs half the price of the battery or cell. You can recharge a partially depleted battery or cell, but the price for doing so is the same as if it were fully spent. At the GM's discretion, some larger starships might have onboard recharging stations. These might offer recharging at low or no cost, but they typically take 1 minute per charge to recharge a battery or power cell.
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Well, I'm looking at Star Trek as my guide here, and I see tons of weapons and armor and force field being charged by ships, and stations and such and no fees being charged at all. The only time battery capacity comes up are those times they are on an away mission in a non-technological area (for the most part). There are ammunition weapons used in Star Trek too, but they are rare and used for very specific things.
The Problem comes from scarcity model. Is the production of energy so difficult that energy is scarce in space? Is renewable energy, such as Solar not available? I think in a space run game where people can fly to the fricking sun and live on it, that solar power would be readily available to all people. SOOOO... I can't see charging for it. I can see charging a convenience fee, or use fee if you have the only charger on the station. But the power itself? no. This is one of those areas where I'll be house-ruling this to bring my game more into Sci and less into fantasy I suppose.
This said: would solar power (or other renewables) be available in the Drift? I'm guessing not. And with trips that can take a month to complete, that battery charge be pretty worrisome. Even more so if you don't know if you can recharge once you transition back to normal space.
