Android anatomy


General Discussion


So, I noticed that androids don't need to breathe. This implies that they had lungs not given in order to increase efficiency. Would they have any other inner organs not installed?


Also, does this imply that they are immune to airborne pathogens/airborne poisons?


They still have holes in them. Airborne pathogens could affect the membranes of the eyes, nose and mouth without having to go all the way to the lungs.


The whole "constructed" trait is... odd... to say the least. Per definition, androids aren't biomechanical constructs, the are very sophisticated robots, so they should really be pure constructs rules wise, which would include total immunity to all toxins and gases (except corrosive ones) as well as mental effects like daze, charm, fear, etc. In turn, they should not be able to naturally heal or be healed by magical/chemical means, but have to be repaired.

That's probably how I will handle them in my game...

In terms of the rules as written, they only a receive +2 bonus against gases, so they still "breathe" those in, in some fashion.


In the Core, it does mention they have biological components, thus their need to eat and sleep.

*shrugs* No lungs but they do have a stomach lol


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MakuTheDark wrote:

In the Core, it does mention they have biological components, thus their need to eat and sleep.

*shrugs* No lungs but they do have a stomach lol

That's because paizo didn't want to make them full constructs for balancing reasons... as far as (scifie literature) definitions go, an android is a (full) robot made to resemble a human. SF androids are actually closer to bio droids, cyborgs or even replicants.


warbaby2 wrote:
MakuTheDark wrote:

In the Core, it does mention they have biological components, thus their need to eat and sleep.

*shrugs* No lungs but they do have a stomach lol

That's because paizo didn't want to make them full constructs for balancing reasons... as far as (scifie literature) definitions go, an android is a (full) robot made to resemble a human. SF androids are actually closer to bio droids, cyborgs or even replicants.

Figured that. I imagine the flavor of the androids in SF/PF being like Robin William's character in Millennium Man when it comes to having organic-like parts but not being organic. Would do replicants but then that would be too organic fer my taste.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Androids actually have surprisingly similar anatomies to humans. The difference is that their organs are made out of synthetic materials and their blood is made from nanites. As a result, they don't have organic cells that need to be oxygenated, but they still need to sustain their bodies through food and water.


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MakuTheDark wrote:
warbaby2 wrote:
MakuTheDark wrote:

In the Core, it does mention they have biological components, thus their need to eat and sleep.

*shrugs* No lungs but they do have a stomach lol

That's because paizo didn't want to make them full constructs for balancing reasons... as far as (scifie literature) definitions go, an android is a (full) robot made to resemble a human. SF androids are actually closer to bio droids, cyborgs or even replicants.
Figured that. I imagine the flavor of the androids in SF/PF being like Robin William's character in Millennium Man when it comes to having organic-like parts but not being organic. Would do replicants but then that would be too organic fer my taste.

True... although, according to the fluff, older SF android models have been mostly biological, which would have made them replicants.

Hm, actually, the Nier Automata androids also come to mind here... they didn't need to eat or sleep either, but they could, and they also did bleed.


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Well, there is a wide spectrum between 100% human and 100% machine.

Type I: True humans conceived from unaltered gametes; also humans cloned from other standard humans are also standard humans.

Type II: A sperm or egg with genetically-modified chromosomes makes a GMO-human, which could lead to speciation. Examples: _Star Trek II_, _GATTACA_.

Type III: Synthetics. They are not true GMOs; they are not genetic copy-pasta. They are built from scratch using natural genomes as a guide, or spliced together from known genes. Examples: _Blade Runner_, _Battlestar Galactica 2004_, _Splice_.

Type IV: Cyborgs, beings with organic brains or intact nervous systems, but with machine body parts. (_RoboCop_ series, _Star Wars_, _Star Trek: First Contact_)

Type V: true Androids, mechanical brains with organic parts, like the Android race from Pathfinder/Starfinder. See also _Bicentennial Man_, _Terminator_ (T-800s with organic camouflage only). It could be argued that the synthetics from the Aliens series (Ash, Bishop, Call) are also Type V's, since they 'bleed'.

Type VI: Fully mechanical beings, Data, all of Asimov's other robots, the toaster-cylons, Terminator T-1000 & T-X, etc.


Well... On the topic of Androids and what they do or do not have... I've seen a discussion before on the nature of an Android's soul (and by extension whether or not it classifies as an A.I. in a classical sense).

A good reason to bring that up is because of a sort of plot twist in something I recently watched. Basically someone who appeared to be human turned out to be an Android made to act as an infiltrator/intelligence gathering unit for a much more powerful A.I.

... If we tried to replicate this in Starfinder, this would require specific parameters that are possible with Androids:

1) The android's mind can be built with a pre-built "mission" that they're psychologically built to fulfil. Or more likely, a pre-set "identity" and skillset (I.E. Mind).
2) That the androids are largely speaking more likely than not to stick to that imperative due to how their psychology is set up (though nothing is certain).
3) That such a specific psychological build does not preclude a soul.

... That last one is surprisingly relevant not only to Starfinder, but the show I saw the twist in; given in that show, if any talk of "the soul" ever came up it would probably immediately say that A.I. would have as much a soul as humans do (but be vague about what exactly that means, and occasionally implying that a human and A.I. partnership shares the same soul... Its complicated.)

Well... Its one specific plotline... If its actually possible in canon, I'm sure actually pulling it off in a game will require a GM to place a player into the game to play the character in question with the actual intention of betrayal.

... Hmm... Wonder if I should post a more in depth idea of this plot to a "random plots" thread.

Sovereign Court

There's a lot of examples in sci-fi for androids/human-like machines;

Beta Unit from Last Starfighter
Ilia from Star Trek 1
Data from ST:tNG
Cylons from BSG reboot
Bishop from Aliens

And just like that list being diverse, so are the abilities and makeup of androids.

I say play it how you want without breaking the rules.


Cyrad wrote:
Androids actually have surprisingly similar anatomies to humans. The difference is that their organs are made out of synthetic materials and their blood is made from nanites. As a result, they don't have organic cells that need to be oxygenated, but they still need to sustain their bodies through food and water.

While i believe this is (was?) true for Androffan Pattern Androids, the Starfinder write up for the species described them differently, possibly due to a different manufacturing process, maybe even due to trademark on certain components or manufacturing abilities of different corporations, new make Androids are a mix of machine parts, cybernetics and actual biological parts. I dont have the full write up on hand but i dont think they are nearly as nanite dependent as APA models were. the net effect however is the same, perhaps they have some other internal process that refreshes oxygen in their biological parts without using an outside source? Technically they are still taking in energy via food so they could have a scrubber of some kind that just refreshes their internal stores without violating any laws of physics i know of...


Being able to process "food and water" is confusing. Do they have 100% efficient breakdown and usage of material, or is there waste? Can they get sick? If their blood is made from nanintes, does that mean that their blood is a naninte swarm? Are they constantly reproducing blood or a blood like substance? What function in their bodies does the blood actually have to their organs? Why does healing magic work on them or mending? Why do they have pain receptors? Who built them and who is still building them? Are there laws governing their rate of construction since making them is a non-natural process? Why do people build them if they have equal rights and thus can't just be sold as worker units since they are machines? Are androids an AI and if they are, is there any legislation controlling the limits of AI? If they are built, not born, what is the time and cost to build one? Can they be built with a different chassis? Since Androids are artificial that mimic organics, can't you have an android with the appearance of any race, including a non-bipedal creature? If their are constructed, how do you perform maintenance on them? Are they "androids" in the term like Cell from DBZ who was clearly organic and not really an android but a biological construction and fusion of cells that had been modified through careful gene mapping and modding? Are there racial tensions with androids since they are artificial, and thus can potentially be mass produced to outnumber the organics and becomes a majority force and take over, depending on programming? Are they built with a safety shut down system if they ever go rogue?

Also, Luna Protege, was that thing you watched one of the Terminator movies or TV series by any chance?
There are a lot of things but suffice to say, androids confuse me and I require much more information.


Jaçinto wrote:

Being able to process "food and water" is confusing. Do they have 100% efficient breakdown and usage of material, or is there waste? Can they get sick? If their blood is made from nanintes, does that mean that their blood is a naninte swarm? Are they constantly reproducing blood or a blood like substance? What function in their bodies does the blood actually have to their organs? Why does healing magic work on them or mending? Why do they have pain receptors? Who built them and who is still building them? Are there laws governing their rate of construction since making them is a non-natural process? Why do people build them if they have equal rights and thus can't just be sold as worker units since they are machines? Are androids an AI and if they are, is there any legislation controlling the limits of AI? If they are built, not born, what is the time and cost to build one? Can they be built with a different chassis? Since Androids are artificial that mimic organics, can't you have an android with the appearance of any race, including a non-bipedal creature? If their are constructed, how do you perform maintenance on them? Are they "androids" in the term like Cell from DBZ who was clearly organic and not really an android but a biological construction and fusion of cells that had been modified through careful gene mapping and modding? Are there racial tensions with androids since they are artificial, and thus can potentially be mass produced to outnumber the organics and becomes a majority force and take over, depending on programming? Are they built with a safety shut down system if they ever go rogue?

Also, Luna Protege, was that thing you watched one of the Terminator movies or TV series by any chance?
There are a lot of things but suffice to say, androids confuse me and I require much more information.

Have you been following the game much? a lot of this is covered in previews and then again in the book itself.

Do they have 100% efficient breakdown and usage of material, or is there waste? Undefined, probably beyond the scope of simulation for the game.

Can they get sick? Yes, they are organic enough that they can and will suffer from disease.

If their blood is made from nanintes, does that mean that their blood is a naninte swarm? Possibly but if so the nanites act no different than regular old blood cells. no swarm traits for their bodily fluids.

Are they constantly reproducing blood or a blood like substance? Assume yes, their bodies require a steady input of energy just like any other creature and some of that energy is going to go into automated maintenance and repair processes.

What function in their bodies does the blood actually have to their organs? See above.

Why does healing magic work on them or mending? This is actually a neat point and was covered incidentally back with the release of the Advanced Class Guide and some talk over Trans characters in the setting, the basic idea was that magical healing works on things with souls or that once had souls and the magic basically reinforces the soul's body image, allowing it to at least partly remake istelf as the soul "remembers" being.

Why do they have pain receptors? because their minds and bodies are designed just like any other living creatures, this is also what allows them to carry souls. my conjecture is that copying an existing structure was easier than coming up with something wholly new to do the same thing. its possible that the interpretation of pain signals in the same manner as other living creatures is due to the presence of a soul vice a simple signal being sent to the brain.

Who built them and who is still building them? The oldest Android Shells would date back to Androffa somewhere around 20,000 years prior to the setting's launch point. since then there were rogue factories on Golarion making small quanitities up until Golarion became advanced enough on its own to copy the designs. Once that happened is seems that the knowledge spread and many different companies and nations would have had the ability to do so. prior to the setting launch point, Androids became recognized as fully sophont and were given freedom but the infrastructure and technology to make them is at this point ancient and aparently not too hard to come by so many illegal Android plants remain that produce new shells for illegal gains. Androids themselves likely also create new shells to further their own race.

Are there laws governing their rate of construction since making them is a non-natural process? Likely nothing regulating their numbers as that would be the same as putting a child limit on any other species which would not go over well. there are laws that basically say if they are created they can not be enslaved but that is not fully enforced everywhere.

Why do people build them if they have equal rights and thus can't just be sold as worker units since they are machines? Because they are built in places where the law doesnt reach or doesnt look so they can still get away with making them for manual labor, things like mining asteroids or the like sinc they dont breath or other sorts of jobs such as happens in real life even though slavery is supposed to be illegal everywhere.

Are androids an AI and if they are, is there any legislation controlling the limits of AI? They are, and they have souls the same as any other PC species. as to laws that govern AI, apparently no since gaining an AI is pretty much the signature ability of the Mechanic class. Though it should be noted that this AI is not anywhere on the same level as an Android AI as it doesnt really have independent abilities outside the PC that made it. But this is mixing setting elements and rules balance elements.

If they are built, not born, what is the time and cost to build one? Not specified, since even if you did create an android, it would be an evil act to force them to work for you and PCs are expected to not do that. Otherwise it would be like buying the leadership feat since you could make an army of NPCs... so, GMs discreation.

Can they be built with a different chassis? Yes, to an extent, is is stated that the vast majority are built to look human but that special order shells have been made and some models were made distinct from other types. in game terms you could give them any cosmetic changes you want so long as you still conform to the size and limb limits, there is also enough space that you could have an NPC android that looks like a dragon or any other craziness the GM wants and it would still work in the setting.

Since Androids are artificial that mimic organics, can't you have an android with the appearance of any race, including a non-bipedal creature? They actually are partly organic but aside from that nitpick and as stated above, yes, you could have an Android look like anything but they always seem to have circuitry like patterns to them to give them away and if you are going really far away from a human body plan than they arent entirely appropriate for PCs in a lot of games anymore.

If their are constructed, how do you perform maintenance on them? So long as they are getting the food and rest they need than their bodies heal the same as any other creatures. They can also benefit from medicine checks, medicinal product and healing magic just like any other living creature.

Are they "androids" in the term like Cell from DBZ who was clearly organic and not really an android but a biological construction and fusion of cells that had been modified through careful gene mapping and modding? You can describe an android in basically those terms but the default assumption is that there will be mechanical parts in an Android in addition to the organic parts.

Are there racial tensions with androids since they are artificial, and thus can potentially be mass produced to outnumber the organics and becomes a majority force and take over, depending on programming? They cant be programmed since they have souls, you would need to use mass domination effects to control them like that. But otherwise the book clearly states that they have a lot of tension with other species for a number of reasons, some of which is jealously over their effective immortality. They usually choose to renew after about a hundred years but if they decide not to than they live healthy, happy lives indefinitely unless physically destroyed.

Are they built with a safety shut down system if they ever go rogue? No but as a story element you could have illegal shells being produced with an implanted bomb that forces them to make a Save or Die if they try to escape.


On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Also with the soul identifying the body thing, what if they have multiple personality disorder? If each personality recognizes the body differently, wouldn't healing work differently by that logic?

Also, is everyone that makes an android a 20th level mechanic, since at level 20 they can make a True AI?


Jaçinto wrote:

On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Also with the soul identifying the body thing, what if they have multiple personality disorder? If each personality recognizes the body differently, wouldn't healing work differently by that logic?

Also, is everyone that makes an android a 20th level mechanic, since at level 20 they can make a True AI?

Well, the fact that androids can effectively kill themselves and then have a new android, with the same body, but none of the memories be born makes things a bit weird. Perhaps the mind is in part tied to the soul?


Jaçinto wrote:

On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Also with the soul identifying the body thing, what if they have multiple personality disorder? If each personality recognizes the body differently, wouldn't healing work differently by that logic?

Also, is everyone that makes an android a 20th level mechanic, since at level 20 they can make a True AI?

Their brains are designed to work just like an organic brain, they have memories and emotions just like anything else. they can not be programed with specific memories abilities or otherwise "class levels" pre-installed. Free will seems to be determined by the presence of a soul or at least a soul garuntees it and it is much trickier to figure out without it. You seem to still be thinking of an Android bran as operating as a computer with an OS, it seems to much more be a computer that is in itself at least partly organic that grows its own nueral connections, it is not programmed with any governing laws or code.

No matter how many personalities the body may have it is still only one soul. The soul would probably have an imprint of what it is supposed to be and that is what directs the magic to repair the shell. Non of this is actually in the book though, its all from forum discussions about Pathfinder with some of the Paizo people a few years back. It is at best "head canon" from contributors. Your GM is free to rationalize it anyway they want and its just as valid from a lore perspective.

Not all rectangles are squares. Just because a 20th level mechanic can make a True AI does not mean only they can. The equipment section specifically states that governments and corporation have access to manufacturing techniques and scales that are forever beyond the PC wealth chart and are able to do a lot more, a lot more cheaply, than PCs can ever do. this is why it is at best no cheaper to make your own weapons than it is to just buy one from the shop, the machines they used to mass produce the weapon let a low CR NPC churn out what a PC has to be level 10 to even try.


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I had been thinking on similar lines but a different topic.

I was wondering how Androids perceive deities like Calistria (as the Goddess of Lust) or an incubus/succubus. I know that Androids can still feel emotion but it seems odd that a race that doesn't procreate would have the same reactions. Heck, over the course of a body's life there could be many Android souls. An Android body is really just a frame for the soul as there's no actual distinction between male and female in a species that doesn't procreate.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll probably just run it as-is but it strikes me as incredible bizarre.


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Are androids all built genderless? Given their past slavery and original denials if sentience there might have been sexbot versions. Less ickily, I would imagine some designers would want to pattern them as directly after humans as possible for reasons of pride and the challenge.


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Since they don't reproduce, the shape of an Androids body (chassis, frame, whatever) is no more relevant than the color of their hair; it's purely cosmetic.

The Androids are effectively immortal. If they aren't killed then they only expire if the soul decides to "pass on" as some do at about 100 years. And one body could potentially house many many souls over the "life" of the body. The whole point of "passing on" is to let a new soul into the body (according to RAW) so the Android body certainly isn't aging in any appreciable way.

The whole Android fluff raises, for me, a whole host of questions that aren't answered and some of the implications seem contradictory or just don't make sense.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsbo)

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Jaçinto wrote:
On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Let's turn this around Meatbag, how can you prove that you have free will? All of your decisions are just driven by chemical interactions in your brain. No one wrote them, but they are surely deterministic all the same.

All you organics are quite obsessed with free will, and how they totally have it, but I have yet to see a definition of free will that is not either self-defeating or so broad as to be meaningless. Consider:

If your actions are determined by physics, you can not choose how you act. So you can not be said to have free will.

If your actions are driven by the soul, well the soul must use some lawful, deterministic, process to arrive at its decisions. So you've just moved the determinism up one level, and your actions are determined by soul physics.

If your actions are not driven by the laws of physics, or by a higher level of soul physics, then your actions must be driven by a random process. And if your actions are random, how can you be said to be responsible for anything? Therefore you have no free will.


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Sir Jolt wrote:
I was wondering how Androids perceive deities like Calistria (as the Goddess of Lust) or an incubus/succubus.

Consenting physical pleasure is still pleasure. As a race, androids seem to have less hang-ups about their bodies than humans. They still seem to pair off into couples (or possibly other poly units) even without a need for biological reproduction.

Experiencing love and feeling pleasure without any biological reproductive needs seems like a pretty good deal.

Edit:

Sir Jolt wrote:
An Android body is really just a frame for the soul as there's no actual distinction between male and female in a species that doesn't procreate.

We don't know that. We don't know yet whether androids have or don't have DNA, RNA, and epigenetics. We don't know if their bodies produce hormones, as a hormone wash during Renewal and/or throughout their life. In humans, all those things are vitally important, and they are the foundation for much more than male and female. (Even "male" and "female" isn't that simple.) If androids lack some or all of those building blocks, what replaces them?


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Jaçinto wrote:

Also, Luna Protege, was that thing you watched one of the Terminator movies or TV series by any chance?

There are a lot of things but suffice to say, androids confuse me and I require much more information.

Actually it was from an Anime.

And that Anime was:
Digimon Universe: Applimonsters

Basically the self proclaimed Protagonist's best friend for years turned out to be a sort of Sleeper Agent for the "Final Boss" A.I. called Leviathan. This being that he turned out to be an Android made by Leviathan.

This reveal of course came after a lot of navel gazing about the relationship between artificial intelligence and humanity, with most of the protagonists saying something to the effect of "Best Friends!"... Needless to say, the reveal came with a line to the effect of "That's right, I too am an A.I."


13-5-MA7 wrote:
Jaçinto wrote:
On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Let's turn this around Meatbag, how can you prove that you have free will? All of your decisions are just driven by chemical interactions in your brain. No one wrote them, but they are surely deterministic all the same.

All you organics are quite obsessed with free will, and how they totally have it, but I have yet to see a definition of free will that is not either self-defeating or so broad as to be meaningless. Consider:

If your actions are determined by physics, you can not choose how you act. So you can not be said to have free will.

If your actions are driven by the soul, well the soul must use some lawful, deterministic, process to arrive at its decisions. So you've just moved the determinism up one level, and your actions are determined by soul physics.

If your actions are not driven by the laws of physics, or by a higher level of soul physics, then your actions must be driven by a random process. And if your actions are random, how can you be said to be responsible for anything? Therefore you have no free will.

I actually think organic beings don't really have free will as all thought is dictated by the chemical reactions in your brain responding to the situations you are in, based on the make up of your specific brain. Or something like that. Basically it is impossible to prove you have free will over everything you do is just the response your brain takes in the situation you are in given the input you have. You can't "go back" and test to see if you would have acted differently with all the same input and no knowledge of what you have already done.

Poorly worded because it is 2:14 am.


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Jaçinto wrote:
13-5-MA7 wrote:
Jaçinto wrote:
On the programming thing, it is because the brain has to be made and data is entered into it. I am talking about initial construction since the brain mapping has to be designed, since they are artificial. So someone has to make the neural pathways. A lot of thought has to do with genetics and brain patterns. With an android, all that is designed with intent. That is why I am talking about legislation. True free will is impossible, or at least near impossible, to program into something. An Android brain may seem to have free will, but wouldn't it instead be working on parameters?

Let's turn this around Meatbag, how can you prove that you have free will? All of your decisions are just driven by chemical interactions in your brain. No one wrote them, but they are surely deterministic all the same.

All you organics are quite obsessed with free will, and how they totally have it, but I have yet to see a definition of free will that is not either self-defeating or so broad as to be meaningless. Consider:

If your actions are determined by physics, you can not choose how you act. So you can not be said to have free will.

If your actions are driven by the soul, well the soul must use some lawful, deterministic, process to arrive at its decisions. So you've just moved the determinism up one level, and your actions are determined by soul physics.

If your actions are not driven by the laws of physics, or by a higher level of soul physics, then your actions must be driven by a random process. And if your actions are random, how can you be said to be responsible for anything? Therefore you have no free will.

I actually think organic beings don't really have free will as all thought is dictated by the chemical reactions in your brain responding to the situations you are in, based on the make up of your specific brain. Or something like that. Basically it is impossible to prove you have free will over everything you do is just the response your brain takes in the situation you are in given the input you have. You can't "go back" and test to see if you would have acted differently with all the same input and no knowledge of what you have already done.

Poorly worded because it is 2:14 am.

I tend to think having foresight of the (possible) consequences of one's choices are probably the closest thing to "free will" we can have. Your choices may still be pre-determined, but at least they're made knowing the possible outcomes of the choice; and if its made in that knowledge, then its virtually indistinguishable from "free-will".

Or to put it another way; there's no fault in your choice being inevitable if you knew beforehand that such a choice would be the right one (or at least, the preferable one).


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I think that free will is more a statement about our lack of knowledge about what causes others to act as they do. I can't possibly calculate all the chemical processes that make my neighbor Bob do what he does, but if I model Bob as a creature with free will I can make predictions based on previous choices I've seen him make.

You could say that free will is in the eye of the beholder :)


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Sir Jolt wrote:
I was wondering how Androids perceive deities like Calistria (as the Goddess of Lust) or an incubus/succubus.

Consenting physical pleasure is still pleasure. As a race, androids seem to have less hang-ups about their bodies than humans. They still seem to pair off into couples (or possibly other poly units) even without a need for biological reproduction.

Experiencing love and feeling pleasure without any biological reproductive needs seems like a pretty good deal.

Edit:

Sir Jolt wrote:
An Android body is really just a frame for the soul as there's no actual distinction between male and female in a species that doesn't procreate.
We don't know that. We don't know yet whether androids have or don't have DNA, RNA, and epigenetics. We don't know if their bodies produce hormones, as a hormone wash during Renewal and/or throughout their life. In humans, all those things are vitally important, and they are the foundation for much more than male and female. (Even "male" and "female" isn't that simple.) If androids lack some or all of those building blocks, what replaces them?

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say, "We don't know that." We know that they don't reproduce as that's mentioned multiple times. We know for a fact that they're immortal unless they choose to pass on as that is explicitly mentioned. We know that, unless destroyed, a body can end up housing multiple souls as that also is explicitly mentioned.

What we don't know is how a race that doesn't (and can't) reproduce sexually views physical pleasure. As a result, it becomes hard to classify how such a race perceives a Goddess of Lust (in the sexual sense) or how they would respond to beings, such as an Inucubus/Succubus, that play off sexual desires. Which is why I brought it up in the first place and said: "The whole Android fluff raises, for me, a whole host of questions that aren't answered and some of the implications seem contradictory or just don't make sense."

The easiest way around that is to say that they react the same as everyone else. For me though, that makes the least amount of sense and takes away what makes an android an android and not just a human with lights.


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Sir Jolt wrote:
What we don't know is how a race that doesn't (and can't) reproduce sexually views physical pleasure. As a result, it becomes hard to classify how such a race perceives a Goddess of Lust (in the sexual sense) or how they would respond to beings, such as an Inucubus/Succubus, that play off sexual desires. Which is why I brought it up in the first place and said: "The whole Android fluff raises, for me, a whole host of questions that aren't answered and some of the implications seem contradictory or just don't make sense."

We sort of know. Androids get a +2 to saves against mind-effects. So they are about two more resistant to succubi then a similar human. This is because succubi charm people with magic. So it does not really matter what your sexual orientation is, what you find attractive, or even if you can feel arousal. When a succubus works her mojo you don't get a choice. Sounds creepy, doesn't it.

Reguarding Calistria and Culture, I imagine different androids respond differently. Maybe an android built to be a slave-miner can't feel love, but another android built by a loving android parent can. Androids might have a cottage industry of designer personalities.


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The soul is what gives the androids free will. They are pre-programmed with knowledge, but the soul that moves in to their bodies is what dictates what they do.


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Although androids need to eat not sure how they power the mechanical parts through that and if there is any waste. Although such tech could make an interesting hazard.

Nannite power generators are a way to generate waste food into power though.


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See, that's the thing. They have to be programmed because they don't have a childhood. An androids mind has to be created. Therefore, it has to be made with some information already in it, including the capacity to learn. That is why I am asking if there are legal mandates on what you can program into it at all. Even a mandate that you have to permit unrestricted ability to learn. Since they generally have adult bodies, they don't have to deal with things like frontal cortex development because it is already developed at time of personality installation and thus they are able to manage their hormones and ability to reason without that awkward point of hormones managing though due to the lack of brain development.

Since they are treated as adult and full citizens upon awakening, they don't have to go through the process a human child does of learning the ability to critically think and rationalize, which gives kids some immunity under the law. An android has full rights and obligations already, suggesting they already have a fully capable mind. This implies, again, pre-programmed information which suggests other information can be installed like concepts of morality. While yes it can be adjusted later, but they already ready would have a pre-programmed in one. They also have to be programmed with a pack mentality that humans have, so again you are dictating their thought process.

I may be overthinking, but I enjoy this.


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Sir Jolt wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Sir Jolt wrote:
An Android body is really just a frame for the soul as there's no actual distinction between male and female in a species that doesn't procreate.
We don't know that...
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say, "We don't know that."

My intent was we (as non-developers of Starfinder) don't know what physiological building blocks and subsequent processes are involved in the development and maintenance of an android's physical brain, and thus, its mind. As each android in Starfinder seems to possess unique personalities, goals, and desires/drives, I would hypothesize that differences in each android's physiology contribute to influencing that mind in both pronounced and subtle ways. We do know the humans were at least largely responsible for the current android design ("built in their own image"), and I would again hypothesize that those designers weren't going to reinvent any physiological processes they didn't have to.

Sir Jolt wrote:

What we don't know is how a race that doesn't (and can't) reproduce sexually views physical pleasure. As a result, it becomes hard to classify how such a race perceives a Goddess of Lust (in the sexual sense) or how they would respond to beings, such as an Inucubus/Succubus, that play off sexual desires. Which is why I brought it up in the first place and said: "The whole Android fluff raises, for me, a whole host of questions that aren't answered and some of the implications seem contradictory or just don't make sense."

The easiest way around that is to say that they react the same as everyone else. For me though, that makes the least amount of sense and takes away what makes an android an android and not just a human with lights.

I would think that a Goddess of Lust and long-lived intelligent (near-)immortals such as incubuses and succubuses would have learned to adapt to new races. I expect that androids experience physical pleasure and even some form of sexual desire. Both experiences may not map completely with how biological humanoids experience such concepts, but I suspect they are similar. We know that most outsiders (the type) are composed largely of their respective planar material, and yet they also experience forms of physical pleasure and sexual desire, which is why we have half-outsiders, tieflings, and aasimars.

The corebook states androids have biological components, thus their need for eating and sleeping. They also "do not reproduce in the human fashion", but that doesn't totally eliminate a desire to reproduce in some android fashion. They "have no biological need for gender", but that does not eliminate the possibility that other aspects of their physiological development, operation, and maintenance are not regulated/influenced by DNA, RNA, epigenetics, and hormones (or similar biomechanical analogues).

There is much we just don't know about android physiology, but there is enough evidence that convinces me that androids are (much) more than "just a frame for the soul as there's no actual distinction between male and female in a species that doesn't procreate."


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Don't ignore the "programming" that comes from the soul. Those souls came from somewhere. And wherever that is, it may have come with its own history.


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Sounds a lot like the Androids from the Alien franchise
Ash, Bishop, Call, David, and Walter. They all ate/drank and were all more organic than mechanical.


No, they were entirely mechanical. They just looked organic. It's synthetic skin. Remember, they can be "alive" as just a head.

If the "soul" comes with its own history, that would imply a person could be "born" with an already adult mind, so that doesn't work.


Jaçinto wrote:
If the "soul" comes with its own history, that would imply a person could be "born" with an already adult mind, so that doesn't work.

Why wouldn't it work? It's basically the same thing as reincarnation, and that's a pretty common belief.


Then there should be a lot more high level kids in pathfinder


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In (AP #85) Iron Gods, part 1: Fires of Creation:

Ecology of the Android article wrote:

...with age and the inevitable failing of their systems weighing upon them, some androids proved able to bring on a reset of their own initiative and passed this knowledge to others of their kind. This process, now called renewal, erases the android’s mind, releases its soul to travel to the Boneyard, and leaves its body a vacant shell. For 2 to 3 weeks, the android is inactive as nanites rebuild and restore its body to its original, youthful state. Ready to live again, the android awakens to a new life with a reborn soul and, occasionally, faint residual memories of its prior lives.

Traditionally, an android’s renewal was accomplished in a technological “coffin” reminiscent of the incubators that give androids life. On Golarion, cradles built in the image of these sarcophagi have replaced the original chambers, and continue to provide privacy and safety during the transcendent journey of renewal. Despite these elaborate constructs, renewal requires no special vessel, merely time and protection....

How much of this is still true and how much has changed in Starfinder has yet to be revealed. It seems possible that androids' minds come with a standard "Androids 101" block of knowledge ("wiki"?) likely encoded in firmware somewhere in their bodies. As for the rest? Who knows.

Perhaps when the soul is freed/uploaded to the afterlife, some mechanism downloads/needlecasts a new personality, or an amalgam of random personality components, from the Akashic Record? While the body is being rebuilt by nanites for the next occupant, mnemnites are restructuring the brain hardware/cortical stack and encoding it with the new memory and personality, so that everything is ready when the new soul arrives.

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