Let's Queer Up Starfinder!


Advice

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
CeeJay wrote:
Playing a character with a different gender identity or sexuality from you has nothing at all to do with erotic RP or "pretending to have sex with NPCs." Gay, bi and trans characters can be onscreen without obliging anybody to have sex just the same as straight characters can. They're such completely different things, and that's a bizarre enough non sequitur, that that tangent almost seems to qualify as outright derailment.

I dunno if I 100% agree here actually. Playing a trans character obviously has nothing to do with sex or romance inherently, but if there's absolutely no romantic or sexual themes in even a 'fades to black' way it becomes really hard to have any sexuality that matters (including being straight) and I've certainly seen and played in games where that was more or less the case. To my frustration in at least one case (since my character's sexuality would've been interesting if it'd ever come up).

People who come from a pure hack and slash school of gaming (or some other that focuses utterly away from characters personal lives) often legitimately don't 'get' why any sexuality (including being straight) is relevant to what they play as a miniature wargame in many ways.

So, the question of whether sexuality and romance come up in games is at least tangentially related to Queer Representation in Starfinder, since without the assumption that some romantic/sexual themes will arise such representation tends to sorta fade away. It's tangential to the main issue, but not a derailment per se, IMO.

1) But the tangent wasn't "no romantic or sexual themes", but "porn or roleplaying sex". The general response to that was in fact, "but romance".

2) True that the pure hack & slash school might miss it, though I suspect that's at least partly because they're also caught in a heteronormative world view and don't see examples of heterosexual behavior where they exist in the setting, but imagine any homosexual ones standing out or being explicitly sexual.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
1) But the tangent wasn't "no romantic or sexual themes", but "porn or roleplaying sex". The general response to that was in fact, "but romance".

Well, yes. But riffing off slightly off topic stuff sometimes is typical for any thread.

thejeff wrote:
2) True that the pure hack & slash school might miss it, though I suspect that's at least partly because they're also caught in a heteronormative world view and don't see examples of heterosexual behavior where they exist in the setting, but imagine any homosexual ones standing out or being explicitly sexual.

There's an element of that in many cases, yeah, but it's not the only factor involved.


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In most cases the PCs will never learn about the gender identity and sexuality of any NPC. In most cases you will never known if the woman you are talking to is trans- or cisgendered or if she is homo- or hetero- or even bisexual.

FirstChAoS wrote:

...

I also have issues playing female characters long term, sort of a odd disconnect I do not get with other character types, not sure why.

And that's a problem?!?

I know about gay players who can only play straight male characters.
I know about female players who can only play male characters.
And I, being a straight man myself, have stopped playing male characters years ago and only play female characters.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:
1) But the tangent wasn't "no romantic or sexual themes", but "porn or roleplaying sex". The general response to that was in fact, "but romance".
Well, yes. But riffing off slightly off topic stuff sometimes is typical for any thread.

Assuming that the existence of queer characters in someone's a game is a demand for porn or erotic RP is more than just "slightly off topic" for my money.

I'm not particularly buying this either:

Quote:
People who come from a pure hack and slash school of gaming . . . often legitimately don't 'get' why any sexuality (including being straight) is relevant to what they play as a miniature wargame in many ways.

... because even if one plays this way, it is simply not plausible for someone to be cognitively functional, involved with the hobby and totally unaware that other people exist who play in other ways. That seems incredibly unlikely to me.


Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
In most cases the PCs will never learn about the gender identity and sexuality of any NPC. In most cases you will never known if the woman you are talking to is trans- or cisgendered or if she is homo- or hetero- or even bisexual.

"In most cases", true. Just as in real life(tm), you won't learn the gender id or sexuality of most people you talk to casually.

So what?
In some cases you will and it's not that hard to see at least clues to orientation.


CeeJay wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:
1) But the tangent wasn't "no romantic or sexual themes", but "porn or roleplaying sex". The general response to that was in fact, "but romance".
Well, yes. But riffing off slightly off topic stuff sometimes is typical for any thread.

Assuming that the existence of queer characters in someone's a game is a demand for porn or erotic RP is more than just "slightly off topic" for my money.

I'm not particularly buying this either:

Quote:
People who come from a pure hack and slash school of gaming . . . often legitimately don't 'get' why any sexuality (including being straight) is relevant to what they play as a miniature wargame in many ways.
... because even if one plays this way, it is simply not plausible for someone to be cognitively functional, involved with the hobby and totally unaware that other people exist who play in other ways. That seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Its right there in the quote, "they play as a miniature wargame" and the explanation is in the other part of the quote that you left out, "that focuses utterly away from characters personal lives" I've seen players who use this approach in and out of combat, everything before them is a challenge to be solved, whether its a murder mystery, being ambushed by ogres or negotiating supply lines for a new settlement their character is just a mechanism to interface with the challenge. They probably "get" that other people play in other styles but that is not the game they signed up for. Really it just comes down to what the group wants out of the game. Dont try to be that person who bends the game around what you want at the cost of the fun for the rest of the table, a statement that applies to both the war gaming and the simulationist approaches to the hobby. Its not lacking in any cognitive functions to not want to play a game in a manner that you dont enjoy.

Liberty's Edge

CeeJay wrote:
Assuming that the existence of queer characters in someone's a game is a demand for porn or erotic RP is more than just "slightly off topic" for my money.

The post we're talking about appears to have been in response to Envall's post...which was explicitly and almost exclusively about actual sex. I disagree with the post in question (and posted why), but imputing homophobic motives seems presumptuous given it was directly following, and seemingly a direct response to, a post about actual sex.

If it'd been out of nowhere and actually equated any queer content with watching porn, my own response would've been quite different.

CeeJay wrote:

I'm not particularly buying this either:

Quote:
People who come from a pure hack and slash school of gaming . . . often legitimately don't 'get' why any sexuality (including being straight) is relevant to what they play as a miniature wargame in many ways.
... because even if one plays this way, it is simply not plausible for someone to be cognitively functional, involved with the hobby and totally unaware that other people exist who play in other ways. That seems incredibly unlikely to me.

There's being intellectually aware, and then there's being emotionally aware. Knowing people play games differently from you is indeed common, but it's sometimes jarring to be presented with evidence of other playstyles that diverge profoundly enough from your own. It can cause serious cognitive dissonance and questions like "Wait...people actually do that?" Which is exactly what the question we're talking about usually is in my experience. A 'Wait, what?!' moment in written form. And one I've seen before, and in reference to heterosexual sex as well.

I've experienced that kind of 'Wait, what?' personally once or twice (though never on this specific topic), and my own playstyle is pretty eclectic and inclusive of various styles depending on specific game. Someone whose experiences are narrower is gonna have that happen even more often.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The post we're talking about appears to have been in response to Envall's post...which was explicitly and almost exclusively about actual sex.

The post I'm talking about was by FirstChAoS, which was about gender and sexuality (not sex) and to which Thomas replied "Most people don't play role playing games to pretend to have sex with NPCs anyway."

There was an earlier post by Envall, specifically about how prevalent sex is in the setting, which was also not about RP'ing sex at the table and to which Thomas' prior rant was similarly off-topic.

So basically there is no reason for people to be ranting about whether people are RPing sex at the table or not, is there? [EDIT: And it s/b obvious enough why, I'm not going to go on about it & eat up the thread.]


thejeff wrote:
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
In most cases the PCs will never learn about the gender identity and sexuality of any NPC. In most cases you will never known if the woman you are talking to is trans- or cisgendered or if she is homo- or hetero- or even bisexual.

"In most cases", true. Just as in real life(tm), you won't learn the gender id or sexuality of most people you talk to casually.

So what?
In some cases you will and it's not that hard to see at least clues to orientation.

Remember that this whole topic was started by someone who believed that the setting is not queer enough. All I wanted to say that it really does not matter. In most cases cases it is really not important if someone is queer or not. And if the PCs really want to know the GM may decide such things. And nothing forbids your GM to change the gender, sexuality etc. of official Starfinder characters...

The RPG Béthorm has a cute table with which you can determine the gender identity, gender expression, biological sex and sexuality of acharacter. So it is possible to have a asexual nonbinary with male gender expression and female biological sex or a straight transgendered man with female gender expression or gay intersex women with neutral gender expression.

The setting is still young. We have already a lot of queer NPC in the Pathfinder APs and a least four of the iconic Pathfinder characters are queer (Kyra is a lesbian), Merisiel and Seltyiel are bisexual and Shardra is transgendered). And among the seven starfinder iconics we already have one non-gendered (Iseph) and a lesbian (Navasi) and perhaps even a pan-sexual (Obozaya).

Silver Crusade

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Why is this even a topic??? In this category or section?? Who cares whether your character lays, stays, preys or does one-handed rummy with there self?? They have and there are communities for that exact purpose. If that's all you want out of this FANTASY GAME played with dice, miniatures, paper and pens.. then you, my friend, have a very serious problem- and it ain't with what your character does. I can ASSURE that during my gaming session I don't want the characters in my party wondering who's looking at their ass or who their thinking of going down on when we're faced with a room full of monster or in dangerous peril. Geezz, get a grip.....

Dark Archive

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badlands122 wrote:
Why is this even a topic??? In this category or section?? Who cares whether your character lays, stays, preys or does one-handed rummy with there self?? They have and there are communities for that exact purpose. If that's all you want out of this FANTASY GAME played with dice, miniatures, paper and pens.. then you, my friend, have a very serious problem- and it ain't with what your character does. I can ASSURE that during my gaming session I don't want the characters in my party wondering who's looking at their ass or who their thinking of going down on when we're faced with a room full of monster or in dangerous peril. Geezz, get a grip.....

Why not?

Just because this isn't how you want to play Starfinder, that doesn't mean there aren't others who do. Representation is important to some people. This discussion isn't going to impinge on how you run your games, so if this isn't something your interested in then read something else.

Liberty's Edge

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CeeJay wrote:
The post I'm talking about was by FirstChAoS, which was about gender and sexuality (not sex) and to which Thomas replied "Most people don't play role playing games to pretend to have sex with NPCs anyway."

Fair enough, I guess, still I feel like (based on the later much longer post) it's mostly the 'profoundly different gaming styles' thing. which, to reiterate, I've seen using almost the exact same terminology in regards to straight romance options and the like.

CeeJay wrote:
There was an earlier post by Envall, specifically about how prevalent sex is in the setting, which was also not about RP'ing sex at the table and to which Thomas' prior rant was similarly off-topic.

I was talking about ThomasBowman's second post on the subject, actually. the first was a throwaway comment, not really a derail, and the second is in direct response to a discussion of sex.

CeeJay wrote:
So basically there is no reason for people to be ranting about whether people are RPing sex at the table or not, is there? [EDIT: And it s/b obvious enough why, I'm not going to go on about it & eat up the thread.]

Not in my opinion, but this is legitimately not the first time I've seen this attitude. And it seems pretty on-topic and worth discussing why people are interested in portraying sexuality in general. Speaking of which...

badlands122 wrote:
Why is this even a topic??? In this category or section?? Who cares whether your character lays, stays, preys or does one-handed rummy with there self?? They have and there are communities for that exact purpose. If that's all you want out of this FANTASY GAME played with dice, miniatures, paper and pens.. then you, my friend, have a very serious problem- and it ain't with what your character does. I can ASSURE that during my gaming session I don't want the characters in my party wondering who's looking at their ass or who their thinking of going down on when we're faced with a room full of monster or in dangerous peril. Geezz, get a grip.....

And here we go again. I'll just quote myself here:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Well, a lot of people get into RPGs at least partially for the same reason people get into theater, to get into their character's head and explore who they are as a person. To take on the role and persona of a character to at least some extent. I certainly consider that one of the main reasons I like playing RPGs.

If that's not your particular motivation for getting involved, that's fine...but it's hardly an uncommon or unique one, and if one is gonna explore who their character is, for many characters sex and romance and how they feel about those things are gonna be a pretty big deal and thus likely to come up.

That's why.


Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
In most cases the PCs will never learn about the gender identity and sexuality of any NPC. In most cases you will never known if the woman you are talking to is trans- or cisgendered or if she is homo- or hetero- or even bisexual.

"In most cases", true. Just as in real life(tm), you won't learn the gender id or sexuality of most people you talk to casually.

So what?
In some cases you will and it's not that hard to see at least clues to orientation.

Remember that this whole topic was started by someone who believed that the setting is not queer enough. All I wanted to say that it really does not matter. In most cases cases it is really not important if someone is queer or not. And if the PCs really want to know the GM may decide such things. And nothing forbids your GM to change the gender, sexuality etc. of official Starfinder characters...

The RPG Béthorm has a cute table with which you can determine the gender identity, gender expression, biological sex and sexuality of acharacter. So it is possible to have a asexual nonbinary with male gender expression and female biological sex or a straight transgendered man with female gender expression or gay intersex women with neutral gender expression.

The setting is still young. We have already a lot of queer NPC in the Pathfinder APs and a least four of the iconic Pathfinder characters are queer (Kyra is a lesbian), Merisiel and Seltyiel are bisexual and Shardra is transgendered). And among the seven starfinder iconics we already have one non-gendered (Iseph) and a lesbian (Navasi) and perhaps even a pan-sexual (Obozaya).

Well, sure. Obviously, the GM can change up whatever they want. I read the OP as being excited about what was there and suggesting ways to go further, for those who do want to "queer up Starfinder".

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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On Aug 30, 2017, Sara Marie wrote:
We do not need to have a rehash of the "should there be more queer content" discussion.
On Nov 27, 2017, Sara Marie wrote:

The premise of the thread is a discussion of ways to add queer elements to Starfinder games. If you are not interested in reading about or discussing this, leave. Hide the thread if you need help staying out of it.

You are not welcome to come into this thread and argue about the validity of people wanting to add queer content to their games.
Dec 6, 2017, Sara Marie wrote:
While I appreciate the willingness to discuss how gender might play various roles in Starfinder, I feel some recent posts have been edging into territory that is unintentionally offensive or otherwise hurtful to members of our community. Be thoughtful with word choice and keep in mind that stating your opinions as definitive facts or declarative statements can quickly escalate a thread from feeling like a conversation to feeling aggressive or insulting.

If you are not interested in respectfully posting your thoughts on adding queer content to Starfinder, you do not need to post in this thread. If you don't want to see this thread come up in forum activity, you can hide it by viewing the forum list of thread titles and clicking the "∅" across from the thread title you wish to hide on the far right side of the page.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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After some internal discussion, I'm moving this thread over to Advice.

Silver Crusade

Well, a lot of people get into RPGs at least partially for the same reason people get into theater, to get into their character's head and explore who they are as a person. To take on the role and persona of a character to at least some extent. I certainly consider that one of the main reasons I like playing RPGs.

If that's not your particular motivation for getting involved, that's fine...but it's hardly an uncommon or unique one, and if one is gonna explore who their character is, for many characters sex and romance and how they feel about those things are gonna be a pretty big deal and thus likely to come up.

If people want to get into theater, role/persona of another character to some extent, then BY ALL MEANS do it, that's what there for....there are also clubs and venues for that type of stuff.

Liberty's Edge

badlands122 wrote:
If people want to get into theater, role/persona of another character to some extent, then BY ALL MEANS do it, that's what there for....there are also clubs and venues for that type of stuff.

Indeed. All RPG Clubs I've ever been involved in have been exactly such venues.


The following tables are taken from Béthorm - The Plane of Tékumel and were modified for using a d20 instead of a d100 and queered up a bit.

Gender Identity
1: Roll again: even female, odd male
2-10: female (48%)
11-19: male (48%)
20: nonbinary (4%)

Gender Expression
1-16: same as gender identity (87%)
17-18: different from gender identity (6%)
19: androgynous (4%)
20: gender neutral (3%)

Biological Sex
1-17: cisgendered (95%)
18-19: transgendered (4%)
20: intersex (1%)

Sexuality
1-15: heterosexual (90%)
16-17: homosexual (4%)
18-19: bi-/pansexual (5%)
20: asexual (1%)

Most characters will still be cisgendered heterosexuals, but the chance to have something else has been increased.


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badlands122 wrote:

Well, a lot of people get into RPGs at least partially for the same reason people get into theater, to get into their character's head and explore who they are as a person. To take on the role and persona of a character to at least some extent. I certainly consider that one of the main reasons I like playing RPGs.

If that's not your particular motivation for getting involved, that's fine...but it's hardly an uncommon or unique one, and if one is gonna explore who their character is, for many characters sex and romance and how they feel about those things are gonna be a pretty big deal and thus likely to come up.

If people want to get into theater, role/persona of another character to some extent, then BY ALL MEANS do it, that's what there for....there are also clubs and venues for that type of stuff.

Or, you know, just don't make it a part of your home games. And, in turn, you don't have to worry about how inclusive the rest of us want to make our home games.


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Don't let this topic be buried! Gay eternal, to the stars and beyond!

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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As noted several times previously, if you do not want to take part in this discussion, stop posting in it.


I feel like I keep seeing new post indications, then I click on the thread and the last one is Sara Marie's post. What is going on in here?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are a few people who take issue with the idea of different ideas regarding the orientation of characters in Starfinder, and they chime in here every so often to say that it isn't necessary to have such a discussion, and that people should just stop posting about alternate sexuality.

Not Sara Marie, she's been doing an amazing job of keeping the thread on-track!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Do Androids dream om of electric sex?

Dark Archive

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BadNarnian wrote:
Do Androids dream of electric sex?

Androids *are* electric sex!

(At least that's what I was told by an android trying to get into my pants. Surely that person wouldn't have lied to me!)

Man, life must be so confusing for androids (and everyone else around them who hasn't adjusted to their life-cycle).

You wake up in a fully adult body, not even slightly, but *a lot* 'used,' and find out that, a week ago, the person in this body was married to someone who doesn't like you very much, for walking around in the body of their dead spouse...

Or you wake up in the fully adult body of someone who spent the last five years on the station nailing everything that moved, and you've got a horrible reputation as a horndog and nobody that you'd want to talk to will give you the time of day, and lots of people you find creepy as balls are giving you that look and texting if you want to hook up later, thinking that you are that other person, with whom they had an on-again, off-again sort of arrangement.

"No, they're dead. I'm a completely different person. I don't know you. I don't even know your species, so I can honestly say that not only do I not know *who* you are, I don't even know *what* you are."

"I can tell you what you aren't, 'though, and that's 'coming home with me.'"

Liberty's Edge

Not all Androids have a used body (just some of them). And I think avoiding such identity confusion is one of the more utilitarian uses of a Serum of Appearance Change.

I know if I were planning on willing my body to someone I'd leave them with a method of changing their appearance so as to avoid confusion. Really solicitous android 'parents' might even throw in a Serum of Sex Shift just to make sure their heir doesn't have to deal with any bodily features they'd rather not.


But others may simply do not care...


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...or may not remember that they need to do that.

I could easily see an Android being swamped with system updates... *ducks*


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, whatever the exact method, I imagine that some cosmetic modifications are a nigh-universal element of the android culture of 'birth'.

That said, I doubt that an android would normally be offended by someone new walking around in their old friend/spouse/whatever's "body". The android reincarnation process is a standard and expected part of their lifecycle, after all. Now, *other people* might find it weird and creepy. . .


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"How many times have I told you? I am NOT Ukongrei - 3. I am Ukongrei - 4 Please QUIT stalking me!"

#AndroidRebirthIssues


Or Androids faking a rebirth to get out of awkward social commitments or service contracts. i could have fun starting a character as Mark-1 and claiming by the end to be at Mark-14 just to try to get out of various situations... Also, by just being an Android called MK 1, 2, 3 etc.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


"How many times have I told you? I am NOT Ukongrei - 3. I am Ukongrei - 4 Please QUIT stalking me!"

#AndroidRebirthIssues

Been there, experienced that.


One of the characters in our game is an Icon because their prior persona was famous a decade ago. It's a fun angle.


Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't know if other races would have a Trans "issue?" no offence meant, but multiple genders is in the scifi genre and rpg.

Prime Directive, for example has a race, "the Hydrans come in three sexes that are generally referred
to as “male”, “female”, and “matriarchal”. As the
matriarchals have the intelligence of a sheepdog, they are
not often seen as player characters."

Ringworld engineers describes a race with 3 genders. "It's suggested in the first book that puppeteer females must mate with two males, one of each of the two "male types" the puppeteers have, in order to conceive. In the second, the Hindmost (who is mated to Nessus) explains Puppeteer reproduction in more detail. The "female" Puppeteer is actually a different species, which acts as a host for the embryo formed by the gametes placed into it by the Puppeteers, whose two "male types" are their actual "male" and "female" genders. The organs used to deposit gametes are described as being "most similar"."

Interesting articles-
-Gender and Sex Roles in Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness
https://msu.edu/~skoutela/resp3.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/puzzle-why-are-there-two-sexes-20170707/

Anyway, it looks like "male" and "female" tend to stay the same. Its the third that has a different gender name.


s0ulrider wrote:

I don't know if other races would have a Trans "issue?" no offence meant, but multiple genders is in the scifi genre and rpg.

Prime Directive, for example has a race, "the Hydrans come in three sexes that are generally referred
to as “male”, “female”, and “matriarchal”. As the
matriarchals have the intelligence of a sheepdog, they are
not often seen as player characters."

Ringworld engineers describes a race with 3 genders. "It's suggested in the first book that puppeteer females must mate with two males, one of each of the two "male types" the puppeteers have, in order to conceive. In the second, the Hindmost (who is mated to Nessus) explains Puppeteer reproduction in more detail. The "female" Puppeteer is actually a different species, which acts as a host for the embryo formed by the gametes placed into it by the Puppeteers, whose two "male types" are their actual "male" and "female" genders. The organs used to deposit gametes are described as being "most similar"."

Interesting articles-
-Gender and Sex Roles in Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness
https://msu.edu/~skoutela/resp3.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/puzzle-why-are-there-two-sexes-20170707/

Anyway, it looks like "male" and "female" tend to stay the same. Its the third that has a different gender name.

The number of sexes should not have any bearing on the gender identity of an individual. Even if there is a species with only a single sex, individual members of that species may identify as male, female, neither, whatever. It may be they have no concept prior to contact and after seeing how other species organize themselves they began to adopt what they saw as gender characteristics that they wanted. Basically when writing up an entirely fictional species you can just as easily include things as to not include them. One could just as well conclude that a species with more than two sexes would have a far greater number of Trans individuals since the number of potential conflicts between biological sex and gender identity multiples. The setting already lays out that natural evolution, divine intervention and directed mutation/augmentation are all at play across the galaxy in creating life so the sky is the limit on what is out there. Or rather the sky isnt even the limit as to what is out there... whatever.


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Torbyne wrote:
s0ulrider wrote:

I don't know if other races would have a Trans "issue?" no offence meant, but multiple genders is in the scifi genre and rpg.

Prime Directive, for example has a race, "the Hydrans come in three sexes that are generally referred
to as “male”, “female”, and “matriarchal”. As the
matriarchals have the intelligence of a sheepdog, they are
not often seen as player characters."

Ringworld engineers describes a race with 3 genders. "It's suggested in the first book that puppeteer females must mate with two males, one of each of the two "male types" the puppeteers have, in order to conceive. In the second, the Hindmost (who is mated to Nessus) explains Puppeteer reproduction in more detail. The "female" Puppeteer is actually a different species, which acts as a host for the embryo formed by the gametes placed into it by the Puppeteers, whose two "male types" are their actual "male" and "female" genders. The organs used to deposit gametes are described as being "most similar"."

Interesting articles-
-Gender and Sex Roles in Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness
https://msu.edu/~skoutela/resp3.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/puzzle-why-are-there-two-sexes-20170707/

Anyway, it looks like "male" and "female" tend to stay the same. Its the third that has a different gender name.

The number of sexes should not have any bearing on the gender identity of an individual. Even if there is a species with only a single sex, individual members of that species may identify as male, female, neither, whatever. It may be they have no concept prior to contact and after seeing how other species organize themselves they began to adopt what they saw as gender characteristics that they wanted. Basically when writing up an entirely fictional species you can just as easily include things as to not include them. One could just as well conclude that a species with more than two sexes would have a far greater number of Trans individuals since the number of potential conflicts between biological sex and gender identity multiples. The setting already lays out that natural evolution, divine intervention and directed mutation/augmentation are all at play across the galaxy in creating life so the sky is the limit on what is out there. Or rather the sky isnt even the limit as to what is out there... whatever.

Though you might expect more drastic Sexual dimorphism to reduce the chance of trans individuals. In the Hydran example: Would male or female Hydrans really feel like they were matriarchs - with the intelligence of a sheepdog?

If the 'female' puppeteer is actually a different species, essentially being parasitized by the Puppeteers, I doubt the other Puppeteers would identify as such.

What would trans even mean in a species that naturally changes physical gender as part of its lifecycle?

Biology gets weird and it's not clear that trans issues would necessarily arise in all intelligent species. That said, we're making these up, so I don't think there's any reason to arbitrarily disallow it, unless you're playing with some pattern odd enough it just doesn't make any sense.


The whole traditional concepts homosexuality and transgender stops working with non-binary species like the shirren or the maraquoi or the asari from Mass Effect or with species without gender dimorphism.
The shirren have three genders. So, which gender will a tansgendered host shirren have? Male? Or female?
The maraquoi have seven genders(!) of which three prvide the genetic material, three a responsible for the different stages of the pregnancy and one is "facilitating" the whole reproduction (and also provides a quarter of the genetic material without being active in the physical process. What would homosexuality or transgender mean for them?
Mass effect's asari are monogendered. So transgendered or heterosexual asari simply do not exist.

Dark Archive

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thejeff wrote:
What would trans even mean in a species that naturally changes physical gender as part of its lifecycle?

It's possible that a member of such a naturally transitioning race could identify exclusively with one of the genders, and take some sort of hormones, or undergo some sort of medical procedure, to lock them into the gender with which they identify. Other remembers of their race would transition normally, every season, every couple of years, after producing a child, whatever, but the non-gender-fluid person would instead remain the same gender, for life, and basically occupy the same niche that a person who transitions from one gender to the other in a species that *doesn't* cycle through regular gender transitions does.

It's interesting how this sort of role would fit a member of a species that undergoes some other form of life-cycle change or metamorphosis. The floating things, IIRC, change over their lifespans to enormous critters, and it could be interesting to play one that is deliberately choosing to arrest it's development, for whatever reason.

You could play such an alien like a caterpillar who self-identifies as a caterpillar, and has zero desire to become a butterfly, and go all sorts of directions with it.

"I can fit on a spaceship and visit other worlds and space stations and meet new cultures at this stage of development. If I allow myself to mature, I'll be stuck on my homeworld, too big to ever leave, stuck discussing philosophy with the other Dreamers forever. I'm not ready for that yet. I don't think I'll *ever* be ready for that..."


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Playing a male Damaya Lashunta character who prefers male gendered humanoids has brought this whole topic up since I started playing SF. Since the Damaya were clearly correlated with gender in Castrovel's past, one can only imagine there was some kind of society-wide 'transition' on this topic. It is explicitly stated that one determines which subtype you enter at puberty, assumably regardless of biological sex or sexual preference.

It also affects my background in that the reason for his Outlaw status is that as an impressionable teenager he was seduced by an older (male human) mentor, and convinced to participate in an act of piracy. Taking off on the run with said person, who eventually ditched him in the Diaspora, taking the Thuamaugen they had hijacked from his mothers' technomagical gas mining station orbiting Liavara. So I'm screwed, meet this goblin, and do some debt collection work on a few stations before I find my way back to Absolom just in time to start Dead Suns.

I later barter with the Bone Sage to find out exactly how wanted I am and if my image from the news has managed to trigger a manhunt for me. He reveals that my mentor was in fact killed, on Eox, and is likely reanimated. So I'm going to have to encounter my manipulative ex in zombi (?) form at some point.

This is all just part of making characters that breathe, but being queer is kind of a central detail in the storyline as it unfolds. Also the relationship of the older man with much younger boy/man, where a young gifted person is groomed by a skilled but socially awkward adult and has to heal from the damage that causes is a story I know is part of many peoples lives, particularly gay ones. So I was inspired to tell it. I don't think I'd ever be interested in rping sexual situations or joining a group where that was a place it went, but I do think fleshing characters out as sexual beings gives them a depth which would be unavailable otherwise.

As for whether your sexual identity matters or should be a aspect of game is of course a matter of preference for how you want your games played. But as a gay man playing a character with a sexual trajectory similar to my own, I can say that rendering that detail has given a level of personal connection with the character which resulted in a lot more depth to my background story. Similar, I imagine, to the black men I game with whose human/nearhuman characters often have dark skin/hair, sometimes dreadlocks. Seems logical to me.

It also seems logical that any person of any gender would be well challenged to play a character without a conventional gender such as a Barathu, one of the handful of mollusk-like beings, or something that occasionally sprouts a bud or a seed. It brings all kinds of interesting questions about how we imagine ourselves in relation to others and the places we are in.

Sorry/not sorry for the necromancy.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

We've got a pansexual astrazoan in our party who tries to sleep with anything and everything as part of an ongoing research project on the sexuality of alien races (and also because the shapeshifter seems to enjoy it).

We're currently on Eox in the middle of the Dead Suns adventure path with a running bet of whether or not the shapeshifter can "get a ghoul's blood flowing."

He did not discuss this character concept with the group before springing the character on the party. Last night was the first time we've ever had to talk about the kinds of things we as a table are comfortable with. At one point the game ground to a halt because the GM was at such a loss for words--he just couldn't believe the topic matter that was being discussed, not the level of detail in which it was being discussed! (We're all in our thirties.)

Eventually he recovered and asked us which was more important: seducing the lady ghoul, or saving the Pact Worlds.

To which the astrazoan immediately replied without a moment's hesitation: "if we can't seduce lady ghouls, is the universe really worth saving?"


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Post timed out on me before I could fix a few unfortunate typos and add a little extra.

Ravingdork wrote:

We've got a genderfluid, pansexual astrazoan solarian in our party who tries to sleep with anything and everything as part of an ongoing research project on the sexuality of alien races (and also because the shapeshifter seems to really enjoy it). He's even got a saying:

“True mastery first requires practice. Lots and lots and lots of practice.”

Our characters are currently on Eox in the middle of the Dead Suns adventure path with a running bet of whether or not the shapeshifter can "get a ghoul's blood flowing."

He did not discuss this character concept with the group before springing the character on the party. Last night was the first time we've ever had to talk about the kinds of things we as a table are comfortable with. At one point the game ground to a halt because the GM was at such a loss for words--he just couldn't believe the topic matter that was being discussed, nor the level of detail in which it was being discussed! (We're all in our thirties and so can be pretty blunt.)

Eventually he recovered from his fits of laughter and asked us which was more important: seducing the lady ghoul, or saving the Pact Worlds.

To which the astrazoan immediately replied, without a moment's hesitation: "If we can't seduce lady ghouls, is the universe really worth saving?"


It's fantasy space, just add them here and there like it's no big deal.


So this topic makes me want to ask for advice, because I have a character who touches on this topic in their back story, and as a cis hetero man I don't want to offend.

My Android operative Overwatch was created illegally by a company illegally gathering resources from as of yet discovered planets by waging wars to steal resources from the native populations. Overwatch was part of a black ops Android slave team who's skill set was specifically hacking defense systems so the ground troops could bypass. They were also all female, with highly sexualized bodies that the unscrupulous higher ups did not hesitate to abuse.

Eventually Overwatch escaped with enough data to put the company out of business, and submitted it anonymously to the Stewards. Before the Stewards could take them down though, the company dissolved and it's executives all but vanished, escaping justice. Fearing reprisal and recapture, Overwatch acquired both a serum of sex change and a serum of appearance change. The Android went from a buxom bubblegum pink haired female frame to a thin, wiry male with white hair and pale skin. They assumed a new identity and took up a job running diagnostics at an Anacite forge on Aballon.

Overwatch is chaotic neutral. I roleplay them as emotionally stunted, rarely deviating from a neutral expression, but sympathetic to slaves and other caged and abused creatures. Extremely slow to trust others, Overwatch has divulged their personal history to no one, and never speak about themselves. This extends even to IRL, as this is the first time I have mentioned Overwatch's backstory. No one asks, and he won't tell. they refer to themselves as male, and identify as such. He maintains a calm exterior, even when he sees things that make him angry or scared. He has no sexual attraction or desire for intimacy of any kind. I honestly don't remember what the word for that is...


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pogiforce wrote:

So this topic makes me want to ask for advice, because I have a character who touches on this topic in their back story, and as a cis hetero man I don't want to offend.

My Android operative Overwatch was created illegally by a company illegally gathering resources from as of yet discovered planets by waging wars to steal resources from the native populations. Overwatch was part of a black ops Android slave team who's skill set was specifically hacking defense systems so the ground troops could bypass. They were also all female, with highly sexualized bodies that the unscrupulous higher ups did not hesitate to abuse.

Eventually Overwatch escaped with enough data to put the company out of business, and submitted it anonymously to the Stewards. Before the Stewards could take them down though, the company dissolved and it's executives all but vanished, escaping justice. Fearing reprisal and recapture, Overwatch acquired both a serum of sex change and a serum of appearance change. The Android went from a buxom bubblegum pink haired female frame to a thin, wiry male with white hair and pale skin. They assumed a new identity and took up a job running diagnostics at an Anacite forge on Aballon.

Overwatch is chaotic neutral. I roleplay them as emotionally stunted, rarely deviating from a neutral expression, but sympathetic to slaves and other caged and abused creatures. Extremely slow to trust others, Overwatch has divulged their personal history to no one, and never speak about themselves. This extends even to IRL, as this is the first time I have mentioned Overwatch's backstory. No one asks, and he won't tell. they refer to themselves as male, and identify as such. He maintains a calm exterior, even when he sees things that make him angry or scared. He has no sexual attraction or desire for intimacy of any kind. I honestly don't remember what the word for that is...

That's usually referred to as being asexual, and denotes the lack of sexual attraction to others. This does not necessarily mean that the person isn't interested in a romantic relationship (the lack of romantic attraction other is called bein aromantic), or a lack of libido. You can have all of those in any combination.

I am also cis, so I can't really touch on the transition stuff, but it seems pretty respectful? No blatant "faux pas" I can see.
I think the trauma of your character's background story is more defining than the gender/sexuality stuff necessarily, and I'd say feel free to only include it as much as you yourself feel comfortable (and not treat it as a joke). Though, of course the very strong change in his life can be something to inspire RP, since he has experienced both a highly sexualised, sexist environment and now society at large as a man in a completely differnt body.
Anyways, the most important part is to try and play a person, not a joke, and if there's anyone at the table who might be uncomfortable, or has additional insight in the wide world of gender and sexuality, talk to them!


I appreciate the feedback. It hasn't been an issue at the table, but perhaps because I don't discuss Overwatch's backstory at the table, in or out of character. It doesn't seem like something he would talk to anyone about.

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