Two Potential Worries Re: Starship Combat Blocks


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here’s a pair of questions/potential concerns regarding the Starship combat blocks given in the CRB.

In the Starship combat blocks, the crew are given a Gunnery modifier. Given the rules on p320, this modifier would seem to be determined by: (BAB or ranks in Piloting skill, whichever is higher) + (dexterity bonus).

So calculating the maximium Gunnery modifier for a PC, by level, gives us:


  • Lvl 1: +5 = +1 BAB +4 Dex (18 Dex)
  • Lvl 2: +6 = +2 BAB +4 Dex (18 Dex)
  • Lvl 3: +8 = +3 BAB +5 Dex (20 Dex)
  • Lvl 4: +9 = +4 BAB +5 Dex (20 Dex)
  • Lvl 5: +10 = +5 BAB +5 Dex (21 Dex)
  • Lvl 6: +11 = +6 BAB +5 Dex (21 Dex)
  • Lvl 7: +13 = +7 BAB +6 Dex (23 Dex)
  • Lvl 8: +14 = +8 BAB +6 Dex (23 Dex)
  • Lvl 9: +15 = +9 BAB +6 Dex (23 Dex)
  • Lvl 10: +17 = +10 BAB +7 Dex (24 Dex)
  • Lvl 11: +18 = +11 BAB +7 Dex (24 Dex)
  • Lvl 12: +19 = +12 BAB +7 Dex (24 Dex)
  • Lvl 13: +20 = +13 BAB +7 Dex (24 Dex)
  • Lvl 14: +22 = +14 BAB +8 Dex (26 Dex)
  • Lvl 15: +23 = +15 BAB +8 Dex (27 Dex)
  • Lvl 16: +24 = +16 BAB +8 Dex (27 Dex)
  • Lvl 17: +25 = +17 BAB +8 Dex (27 Dex)
  • Lvl 18: +26 = +18 BAB +8 Dex (27 Dex)
  • Lvl 19: +27 = +19 BAB +8 Dex (27 Dex)
  • Lvl 20: +29 = +20 BAB +9 Dex (28 Dex)

Now, the Starship combat blocks seem to describe crew whose level equals the tier of the ship (e.g., they have as many ranks in any given skill as the ship has tiers). And starting with the Tier 1 ships, their Gunnery modifiers are as follows:


  • Tier 1 Kevolari Venture/Starhive Drone Mk III: +5 Gunnery (0 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 2 BMC Mauler: +12 Gunnery (6 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 4 Idaran Vanserai: +10 Gunnery (1 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 5 Blackwind Sepulcher: +11 Gunnery (1 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 6 UIE Hiveguard: +13 Gunnery (2 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 8 Norikama Dropship: +16 Gunnery (2 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 9 Hivonyx Titan Hauler: +17 Gunnery (2 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 10 Atech Immortal: +24 Gunnery (7 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 12 Idaran Millennia +22 Gunnery (3 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 14 Thaumtech Omenbringer: +25 Gunnery (3 higher than PC max)
  • Tier 16 Vindicas Tyrant: +33 Gunnery (9 higher than PC max)

Q1. Are some of these Gunnery numbers typos?

After Tier 1, all of these Gunnery modifiers are higher than it’s possible for a PC to have. For the most part it’s 1-3 points higher than the PC max. But the BMC Mauler, Atech Immortal and Vindicas Tyrant have Gunnery modifiers 6, 7 and 9(!) points higher than the maximium PC modifier at the corresponding levels. This seems way out of whack, leading me to think these values may be mistakes.

Q2. How are PCs supposed to survive against these ships?

Now, we know that monsters are generated in a different manner than PCs in Starfinder, and aren’t constrained by the same limitations. And we know that this is balanced by the fact that they’re also made weaker than PCs in certain respects (e.g., they don’t get both Stamina and HPs, don’t get Resolve, etc.), so everything plays out fine.

Now, these crew stats also seem to be generated in a different manner than the PCs, and (with respect to Gunnery modifiers, anyway) seem to be strictly better than a PC could be at the same level. But unlike monsters, these ships aren’t weaker than PC-built ships in other respects. These ships appear to be made by the same rules as PC ships. This suggests that enemy ships have a substantial built-in advantage over PC ships of the same level.

So what do you think? Does it seems like these are typos, or reasons to be concerned? Or am I just missing something that makes this less worrying?


I'm not one for breaking down the crunch, but page 326 points out that an Average challenge for starship combat would be 2 less than the tier of the PC's ship. Example: if the PC's ship is tier 4, an average challenge starship battle would be an enemy in a tier 2 ship. This may or may not have something to do with the numbers.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Good point, it does say that.

Of course, the text on p326 attributes it to the danger of starship combat, since if the ship goes down, all of the PCs are taken down as well...

But perhaps the desire for starship combat to feel especially challenging, coupled with some mistakes when stating the three big outliers (BMC Mauler, Atech Immortal, Vindicas Tyrant) might explain things?...


The Goat Lord wrote:
I'm not one for breaking down the crunch, but page 326 points out that an Average challenge for starship combat would be 2 less than the tier of the PC's ship. Example: if the PC's ship is tier 4, an average challenge starship battle would be an enemy in a tier 2 ship. This may or may not have something to do with the numbers.

That's because a ship of the same tier as the PCs' is just as strong as theirs- i.e. expected to have a roughly 50% chance of winning the battle. Which isn't really an average challenge, but more like a really rough bossfight, since losing either ends the campaign or puts the PCs in an awful situation.


I haven't gone over the intricacies of starship combat yet (only had time to skim that section) but I think that had to do with the size of the ships and the rules about large teams of gunners?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Goddity wrote:
I haven't gone over the intricacies of starship combat yet (only had time to skim that section) but I think that had to do with the size of the ships and the rules about large teams of gunners?

Hrmm, and interesting thought...

Not sure it can explain these values, though, since the BMC Mauler (one of the three ships that's an especially big outlier) has a crew of two: the pilot and a gunner. And that gunner has a gunnery modifier 6 higher than the PC max at that level...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

OK, I figured out what's going on, and these Gunnery values do indeed seem to be mistakes in the ship stat blocks.

In particular, on p326 it states that NPC skill modifiers for good skills should be 4+1.5*tier (ranks), and for master skills should be 9+1.5*tier (ranks), which exactly matches the Gunnery values in these stat blocks (the three ships with the especially big values are the "master skill" values; the others are the "good skill" values).

Three reasons to think it's a mistake:

1. Gunnery modifiers aren't skill modifiers, they're attack modifiers (usually: BAB + dex bonus).

Using the skill modifier table for Gunnery modifiers is akin to using the suggested skill value progression for monsters to determine their attack bonus -- something which (it seems) advances according to a different progression.

2. Gunnery modifiers should be much lower than skill modifiers.

This is because the Gunnery modifier doesn't benefit from any of the extra boosts skills get, like the bonus for being a class skill, insight bonuses (from Skill Focus or class abilities), racial bonuses, theme bonuses, and the like.

3. Contrary to what the text on p326 suggests should be the case, these Gunnery modifiers are higher (and sometimes much higher) than it's possible for PCs to obtain.

On p326 it says "Most starship combat encounters are between characters of roughly equal level and skill". So the modifiers assigned to the crew of a tier X ship should be roughly comparable to the values an optimized PC of level X could have.

But while it's possible for PCs to have skill modifiers as high as those given for "master skills" -- 9+1.5*level, for every level from 1-20 (a Lashunta Operative with a maxed out attribute in the relevant skill will do the trick), it's impossible for PCs to have Gunnery modifiers even close to 9+1.5*level -- at best, they start off 5 behind that mark at level 1, and the gap grows to 10 by level 20.

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