Lv 20 i feel is less likely then another mythic AP. Multiple people from Paizo have stated that doing a non-mythic AP to lv 20 would require possibly 2 more books, and they are VERY happy with the 6 book format for APs. Another swing at Mythic i feel is likly, though i feel that they went too ambitious with WotR going for the full 10 ranks, and if they did another Mythic Ap, capping the Mythic Rank out at 5 or 6 (One rank per book) would allow for a better balance in power level.
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^^^That would be pretty cool. It'd make certain builds that don't fully come on line for several levels much more viable since you don't have to muddle through early levels.
Hhhhhhhhh-uh. An oddity. When I go back a page, it looks like James Jacobs posted here "27 seconds ago" but there is no visible post by him. Weeeeiiiirrrrd.
Either way, the idea is super cool, I would ,over for them to be able to do so at some point! I am glad for what they did in WotR, and look forward to any other mythic content they put out!
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There is little appetite for another Mythic AP, based on staff comments (though admittedly from some time ago).
WotR was one of my all time favourite APs and I'm really, really hoping the right story comes along at some point (maybe a test of the starstone AP) and they go back to it.
As I understand things, there were significant problems with high tier mythic rules (player power outpaced the advancement of mythic obstacles). That would imply quite a bit of effort to revisit the theme - there was quite a lot of extremely negative posts about mythic at the time and in my view it crossed the line from constructive to nasty.
I would imagine such negativity will delay a second mythic AP (even if it didn't rule it out completely). There's probably a lot more fun things to work on. If a new one was announced, I imagine it would involve wading through a couple of hundred new posts of bickering fans giving their conflicting advice is overly aggressive posts (or digging back through the rather unpleasant mythic related forums from a few years back). Who'd want to do that for weeks on end?
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I think the big question with an adventure path that goes to 20th level would be the why of it. Is there a story reason to go all the way to 20th level, or is it just an arbitrary desire to get there? In my opinion, most adventure paths end at a pretty natural point.
That said, one of the stretch goals of the upcoming Kingmaker computer game that got unlocked is a new chapter that takes PCs up to 20th level. Depending on how popular the game is, it would be really awesome to see that chapter converted to pen and paper format someday.
As to the mythic rules, while I personally love them, they seem to work better at lower tiers. If there was an adventure path that stuck to tier 3 or even tier 5, I think that would be cool and still provide enough XP to hit 20th level. However, once the mythic rules get involved, there seems to be a desire to reach the very top of the game.
Creative Director
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Hhhhhhhhh-uh. An oddity. When I go back a page, it looks like James Jacobs posted here "27 seconds ago" but there is no visible post by him. Weeeeiiiirrrrd.
My plot to stir things up proceeds apace! Mwa ha ha!
And there are plenty of reasons to do an AP to 20th level... in fact, given the space, ALL of our adventure paths would have worked fine as full 20 level stories. Back in the Dungeon Magazine days, that was the norm, after all.
As for Mythic, I remain pretty uninterested in doing another adventure path that has mythic rules required for players, but periodically using them for NPCs and monsters and the like is fine.
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Hhhhhhhhh-uh. An oddity. When I go back a page, it looks like James Jacobs posted here "27 seconds ago" but there is no visible post by him. Weeeeiiiirrrrd.My plot to stir things up proceeds apace! Mwa ha ha!
And there are plenty of reasons to do an AP to 20th level... in fact, given the space, ALL of our adventure paths would have worked fine as full 20 level stories. Back in the Dungeon Magazine days, that was the norm, after all.
As for Mythic, I remain pretty uninterested in doing another adventure path that has mythic rules required for players, but periodically using them for NPCs and monsters and the like is fine.
I feel regret at your commitment to not using mythic for players in APs, James.
I'm aware that there has been a certain amount of "backlash" regarding some balance issues within high-tier mythic (at least that's the place I see issues with mythic. Up to about tier 5 it works great, in my experience).
I won't try to sway your opinion, but Vorsk's suggestion above is a pretty good one.
Regardless, there is good 3PP support for mythic, and I can't promote Legendary Games' products (particularly the Legendary Planet AP) enough.
I will live in hope that one day your response will change to "might be something we'll do again some day", but for now I think I understand your disinterest.
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I can understand the lack of desire to do a full scale Mythic AP again, after the reception WotR got, but I think it would still be cool to throw in some mythic powers for PCs into an adventure or two- just a single level or three, maybe even just as a temporary boost. That's one of the cool things about the mythic rules as provided, IMO.
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Looks like the announcemnet hapepnd, so I can get a little more specific:
The AP we're launching NEXT Gen Con is "Return of the Runelords." It will indeed be a full 1st to 20th level adventure path that will indeed use Mythic rules for a few of the NPCs
WOO~!!
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Looks like the announcemnet hapepnd, so I can get a little more specific:
The AP we're launching NEXT Gen Con is "Return of the Runelords." It will indeed be a full 1st to 20th level adventure path that will indeed use Mythic rules for a few of the NPCs
Cool. :)
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While i will buy every AP volume Paizo publishes and am very excited to read the story of the Runelords return, i won´t play or GM anything that goes beyond level 13 anymore, UNTIL it´s Starfinder or Pathfinder 2.0.
It´s just not worth the amount of work and it doesn´t function well from both mechanical and story-wise standpoints.
Personally i hope, that at the end of this AP, "New Thassilon" will indeed rise inside the borders of Varisia (maybe it´s just a city-state or a small region) and change the landscape of Golarion (if only a very tiny little bit) after over 10 years of a mostly static status quo. ;-)
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Looks like the announcemnet hapepnd, so I can get a little more specific:
The AP we're launching NEXT Gen Con is "Return of the Runelords." It will indeed be a full 1st to 20th level adventure path that will indeed use Mythic rules for a few of the NPCs
It would be cool if there were a few suggested vignettes for Mythic PCs to gain their/more Mythic powers, though. I'm happy to deal with the mechanical side of the PCs getting Mythic ranks, but if the people who write or edit the story--and know what's coming next, for those of us who don't read the whole six instalments before starting--suggest how one can mesh Mythic PC advancement into the story, that'd be nice, and I don't think it'd detract from the AP for the people not having mythic PCs.
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It would be cool if there were a few suggested vignettes for Mythic PCs to gain their/more Mythic powers, though. I'm happy to deal with the mechanical side of the PCs getting Mythic ranks, but if the people who write or edit the story--and know what's coming next, for those of us who don't read the whole six instalments before starting--suggest how one can mesh Mythic PC advancement into the story, that'd be nice, and I don't think it'd detract from the AP for the people not having mythic PCs.Looks like the announcemnet hapepnd, so I can get a little more specific:
The AP we're launching NEXT Gen Con is "Return of the Runelords." It will indeed be a full 1st to 20th level adventure path that will indeed use Mythic rules for a few of the NPCs
I'm very sorry, but I'm not interested in that at all. That's not the story I want to tell. Nor do I want to open up another Adventure Path that I've got a lot of personal work invested in to be lambasted in the way that Wrath of the Righteous was for its Mythic PC elements.
I want Return of the Runelords to be regarded as what it is—the conclusion to a trilogy and the first pure 1st to 20th level Pathfinder AP we've done. Even including "Mythic option" sidebars in print would ruin that, in my view.
Feel free to adjust the AP in your home game for Mythic PCs (as you should feel free to do so for ALL of our adventure paths), but it's not something I want to spend time or space or energy on in print.
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That's super fair.
Though I love the mythic rules, I understand the pain of that sort of thing.
Thank you for sharing those stories, though.
They mean a lot to me!
Regardless, between Starfinder, War for the Crown, and Return of the Runelords Paizo is making me a super-happy customer, and a super-sad customer, because I lack a few cool million un-invested "free" money to dump into the company to purchase stuff and distribute like candy to various people...
EDIT: to clarify and add a bit!
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Does this mean there almost certainly won't be an AP set in Ibdylos? While I'm miffed about that, I'm also excited about the incoming APs and understand the issues around 20th-level, Mythic Tier 10 PCs.
It may be that I'm one of those people who haven't got a PC to level 20 and wants to, but I'm excited for an official AP that hits the cap for other reasons, mainly regarding what it's about.
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I am pleased that there will be an AP that brings pcs to 20th level. It brings back memories of when I ran The Savage Tide AP for my friends (not all memorable memories are *nice* though).
That being said, as much as I like high level challenges for high level pcs, it is so easy to get lost with the stat block of a high level npc. With several high level npcs, it can be like playing multiple games at the same time. The worst part is failing to bring that character to life with role-playing (my hardest challenge was the Winter Council in the 2nd Darkness AP).
It would be great if there was an additional pdf file (or Word document) separate from the adventure itself that delved a little more with the tactics and capabilities of the high level npc/monster or maybe provide highlights of previous play-tests to illustrate how a DM can be creative and/or pro-active with the npc/monster against the heroes. I am not recommending something that describes tactics against every conceivable situation (that's ludicrous), but enough to help the DM (a) understand how the abilities work and (b) to help make the npc/monster more memorable.
However, I do realize some of the constraints Paizo works with, and as such, I honestly don't expect the above suggestion to ever happen precisely like that. Yet, the placement of the stat blocks of the major villains and allies after the end of the adventure, with background content and tactics employed included, does cover some of what I was discussing in the preceding paragraph. So, at least there is that. :)
Cheers!
CB
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That being said, as much as I like high level challenges for high level pcs, it is so easy to get lost with the stat block of a high level npc. With several high level npcs, it can be like playing multiple games at the same time. The worst part is failing to bring that character to life with role-playing (my hardest challenge was the Winter Council in the 2nd Darkness AP).
In the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Karzoug got a sidebar to help with this. I imagine the other Runelords that appear in the AP will have the same, especially the Mythic ones.
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If we could just get another mythic adventure in the form of a module, that would be great.
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Does this mean there almost certainly won't be an AP set in Ibdylos? While I'm miffed about that, I'm also excited about the incoming APs and understand the issues around 20th-level, Mythic Tier 10 PCs.Doesn't mean anything of the sort.
Yay! But instead of getting hyped about that, I've gotta stay hyped about this instead.
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In the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Karzoug got a sidebar to help with this. I imagine the other Runelords that appear in the AP will have the same, especially the Mythic ones.
Ah, I did not have a copy of that product so I did not know about the inclusion of that sidebar. It is a nice addition to the usual stat-block format. :)
I find it easier to remember tactics and similar content if they are not buried in a stat block (well, calling it buried is a bit much but it does blend in a little too well there) so keeping them elsewhere in a sidebar, or in a different colour scheme, or even mentioned as bulletin points instead (see Legendary Games' Planetary Heroes for an example of bulletin points being used to briefly describe a few things about the character) helps my often-overloaded brain in remembering essentials that are not directly connected to a stat block. But that's just me, a small segment of the consumer base - I have no idea if other have similar issues with stat blocks as me. ;)
I do wonder how the use of npcs/monsters with mythic tiers or ranks will affect treasure distribution in this AP. I hope though that we will see less artifacts (at least the kind that you can carry around) and maybe more emphasis on the pcs using their creativity to resolve the hurdles before them. Maybe it is just me but it seemed that the last couple of APs there were a substantial amount of "new" artifacts being introduced. Just my impression (which can be totally wrong).
CB
Curse of the Crimson Throne, I always thought.
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Wait if return of the runelords is the conclusion to the trilogy what's part two? The only one I can think of is shattered star but that doesn't necessarily tie in to the first rise of the runelord.
Shame about no mythic options I enjoyed them but such is life.
Shattered Star is 100% the second AP in the trilogy. The whole plot of Shattered Star, after all, is about...
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Wait if return of the runelords is the conclusion to the trilogy what's part two? The only one I can think of is shattered star but that doesn't necessarily tie in to the first rise of the runelord.
Shame about no mythic options I enjoyed them but such is life.
Shattered Star is 100% the second AP in the trilogy. The whole plot of Shattered Star, after all, is about...
** spoiler omitted **
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Wait if return of the runelords is the conclusion to the trilogy what's part two? The only one I can think of is shattered star but that doesn't necessarily tie in to the first rise of the runelord.
Shame about no mythic options I enjoyed them but such is life.
Shattered Star is 100% the second AP in the trilogy. The whole plot of Shattered Star, after all, is about...
** spoiler omitted **
That way you're missing the GenCon premiere. And you don't want to miss GenCon.
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Creative Director
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Wait if return of the runelords is the conclusion to the trilogy what's part two? The only one I can think of is shattered star but that doesn't necessarily tie in to the first rise of the runelord.
Shame about no mythic options I enjoyed them but such is life.
Shattered Star is 100% the second AP in the trilogy. The whole plot of Shattered Star, after all, is about...
** spoiler omitted **
Because we're well over half a year too late to make that sort of change to the Adventure Path.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hhhhhhhhh-uh. An oddity. When I go back a page, it looks like James Jacobs posted here "27 seconds ago" but there is no visible post by him. Weeeeiiiirrrrd.My plot to stir things up proceeds apace! Mwa ha ha!
And there are plenty of reasons to do an AP to 20th level... in fact, given the space, ALL of our adventure paths would have worked fine as full 20 level stories. Back in the Dungeon Magazine days, that was the norm, after all.
As for Mythic, I remain pretty uninterested in doing another adventure path that has mythic rules required for players, but periodically using them for NPCs and monsters and the like is fine.
I feel regret at your commitment to not using mythic for players in APs, James.
I'm aware that there has been a certain amount of "backlash" regarding some balance issues within high-tier mythic (at least that's the place I see issues with mythic. Up to about tier 5 it works great, in my experience).
I won't try to sway your opinion, but Vorsk's suggestion above is a pretty good one.
Regardless, there is good 3PP support for mythic, and I can't promote Legendary Games' products (particularly the Legendary Planet AP) enough.
I will live in hope that one day your response will change to "might be something we'll do again some day", but for now I think I understand your disinterest.
Just saw this thread, and I'm happy to report that Legendary Planet is very close to completion. I'm making good progress on the final adventure, To Kill a Star, which will wind up with PCs at 20th level and 6 mythic tiers.
What I can say after shepherding this project along is that I have SO MUCH sympathy for James & Co. with all the gazillion moving parts and things that can go wrong along the way in assembling a project as big as an adventure path. I think the final end product has been terrific (including the 5E and Starfinder versions), but oy vey is it a METRIC BLEEP-TON of work.
I certainly hope people are enjoying it as much as Chemlak!
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Does this mean there almost certainly won't be an AP set in Ibdylos? While I'm miffed about that, I'm also excited about the incoming APs and understand the issues around 20th-level, Mythic Tier 10 PCs.
Dunno about level 20/tier 10, but I can say that level 15/tier 8 characters are challenging, yep. They just took out Bezravnis without much trouble (he's not mythic, after all).
I'll check back in 6 months, the players will probably be at level 20/tier 10 right about then. But ... what I'm really curious about is what happens at 20+/10+.
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Hhhhhhhhh-uh. An oddity. When I go back a page, it looks like James Jacobs posted here "27 seconds ago" but there is no visible post by him. Weeeeiiiirrrrd.My plot to stir things up proceeds apace! Mwa ha ha!
And there are plenty of reasons to do an AP to 20th level... in fact, given the space, ALL of our adventure paths would have worked fine as full 20 level stories. Back in the Dungeon Magazine days, that was the norm, after all.
As for Mythic, I remain pretty uninterested in doing another adventure path that has mythic rules required for players, but periodically using them for NPCs and monsters and the like is fine.
I feel regret at your commitment to not using mythic for players in APs, James.
I'm aware that there has been a certain amount of "backlash" regarding some balance issues within high-tier mythic (at least that's the place I see issues with mythic. Up to about tier 5 it works great, in my experience).
I won't try to sway your opinion, but Vorsk's suggestion above is a pretty good one.
Regardless, there is good 3PP support for mythic, and I can't promote Legendary Games' products (particularly the Legendary Planet AP) enough.
I will live in hope that one day your response will change to "might be something we'll do again some day", but for now I think I understand your disinterest.
Just saw this thread, and I'm happy to report that Legendary Planet is very close to completion. I'm making good progress on the final adventure, To Kill a Star, which will wind up with PCs at 20th level and 6 mythic tiers.
What I can say after shepherding this project along is that I have SO MUCH sympathy for James & Co. with all the gazillion moving parts and things that can go wrong along the way in assembling a project as big as an adventure path. I think the final end product has been...
It's been fun watching you guys bring this project together. I've only been able to play the first two books so far, but I'm hoping to get deeper into the AP one day. It's good to have a high quality adventure path outside of Paizo and it's being converted to 5E and Starfinder to boot.
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Does this mean there almost certainly won't be an AP set in Ibdylos? While I'm miffed about that, I'm also excited about the incoming APs and understand the issues around 20th-level, Mythic Tier 10 PCs.Dunno about level 20/tier 10, but I can say that level 15/tier 8 characters are challenging, yep. They just took out Bezravnis without much trouble (he's not mythic, after all).
I'll check back in 6 months, the players will probably be at level 20/tier 10 right about then. But ... what I'm really curious about is what happens at 20+/10+.
Mostly players one- or two-shotting CR 30 demon lords.
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At level 20/10 then a typical mythic melee combatant does 750hp damage in a round unless he starts spending lots of mythic points in which case they can hit 2000......
I gave the end boss of Wrath 16000 hp and he died in 3 rounds, as written 1 pc would have killed him in 1 round, if they got a crit while Foebiting possibly with a single blow.
Never running another mythic game, the rules don't work. But looking forward to more level 20 AP's. I remember thinking Magnuskn was exagerating how bad high level mythic characters were, I was wrong
Never running another mythic game, the rules don't work. But looking forward to more level 20 AP's. I remember thinking Magnuskn was exagerating how bad high level mythic characters were, I was wrong
It appears that Paizo has gotten the message. Don't expect more Mythic content from them.
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I think adventure paths are fine. What I really want to see are adventure modules for above 17th level play. Bonus if they can be somewhat tangent or related to an existing adventure path. A sort of "reasonable stretch" to allow PCs that finish an adventure path successfully would find the module natural to expand into, yet the ability for a freshly created high level group to play in as well.
A great example was "Witchwar Legacy" being somewhat usable with "Reign of Winter".
As for mythic, one could make a low-tier mythic module without drowning in the balance problems of mid to high tier PCs. Giving a PC one or two tiers isn't a big deal. Things get hard to run past mythic tier 4 or 5; Player choices can shift the power beyond the scope of a printed module for the masses, and requires the GM to have specific knowledge of each PC in advance. A printed module can't assume a mythic vital strike build, or a beginning player choosing subpar mythic path choice. Thus modules are best used for mythic tier play that go no higher than 3 at the most.
In short, more high level, and or low mythic tier modules would be nice for me.
Can anyone do the math show me how players are doing so much damage with mythic rules?
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It goes something like: high Str two-handed weapon, Mythic power attack, Mythic Vital Strike, legendary weapon with foe-biting, greater Vital Strike. For the low-low cost of 1 Mythic power, at 20th level, you are hitting the following: the weapon dice 4 times, then doubled, plus 8 times Str plus 8 times enhancement bonus, plus 8 times 18 (that’s power attack, assuming no extra for two-handing). And if you critical it just goes crazy, but does cost another Mythic power. Oh noes.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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To expand on Chemlak, lets presume a +5 keen holy evil outsider bane greatsword. A mythic martial can easily produce a strength score in the 50 range, so let's assume that. So BAB+20, +20 Str, +5 weapon, plus whatever other to hit bonuses you can scrounge up from buffs. Generally you hit on a 1 - and I mean that literally, you can negate "auto-miss" on a 1 with mythic. So in a single shot you do ~20d6+360, 36d6+720 on a crit. And you can spend a mythic point to get another standard action and do it again in the same round.
That's not even trying hard, it's just taking a few obvious things.
And that's not even looking at spells. Try adding your mythic rank to your caster level on holy word and watch everything evil wither and die in a single spell.
My players had a lot of fun with Wrath, but that fun was mostly effortlessly stomping a hole in the feeble demonic opposition by book 5 or so.
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Thanks for the assist, ryric, and you bring up an important point: neither of us touched on anything esoteric or unusual, just bare-bones damage increasing options. In fact the things I mentioned are all available to a character by Tier 4, so you can use that option 11 times before you run out of mythic power, and even then all that does is reduce those times 8's to times 4's, which is still an incredibly high amount of damage from a single hit.
And that's just one character.
The problem with mythic was that it took Pathfinder's glass cannon issue and took it to the Nth power. There was nothing stopping both players and enemies from simply stacking all of the best damage multiplying powers.
This is my personal suggestion for running a mythic game: Ban ALL mythic feats and spells. Then throw away the automatic powers that players gain from their mythic tiers (like the one that lets them do a day's rest in 10 minutes). THEN go through the list of mythic powers and ban everything that seems too powerful for your game. Heck, while you're at it throw away the entire mythic path system, because it is too inflexible and the starting powers it grants for each path are too powerful.
At that point, all you're left with is the players gaining mythic powers at a rate of 1/tier. When mythic is stripped down to *just that*, you're left with something that is fun and flavorful without being overpowering.
Personally I really like the stat increases and immunities you can get from mythic rules.
I agree the mythic spells were a bit much.
But it's not the spell that were a problem. It's martials one-shotting pretty much everything. Mythic spellcasting is pretty tame.Personally I really like the stat increases and immunities you can get from mythic rules.
I agree the mythic spells were a bit much.
Mythic spellcasting is actually completely ridiculous, and possibly even more game breaking than what the martials can do. With the right combination of powers, mythic spells, and mythic feats you can kill almost anything in one round. You can get AOE damage numbers so high (while also ignoring immunities) that no other character can survive without evasion. Worse than that: you can get save DCs impossibly high while also forcing your targets to roll twice and take the lowest.
When I was playing in Wrath of the Righteous my GM gave up on random encounters because of how ridiculous the wizard in our party was. In book 5 he killed four CR 22 Thanatotic Titans in a single round before anyone else was able to act. There was essentially no point in having us fight anything that wasn't mythic at that point.