Does a kitsune in fox shape get any size benefits?


Rules Questions


A kitsune in fox shape gets +4 Dex, - 2 strength and +1 natural AC.

Do they also get the size bonuses/penalties of being tiny? Bonus to AC, To Hit, Stealth, needing to move into opponents space to attack etc..


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If they're tiny, then yes. Those things come along with being that size. Unless it says somewhere that a particular tiny creature doesn't have those traits, the default assumption is that they do.


Wow. Wife's unchained Ninja will then start out with +18 to Stealth, when a fox.

Scarab Sages

She'll also provoke an attack of opportunity when entering an opponents space to attack every round. There are downsides to being tiny.

Liberty's Edge

To be fair, it's only slightly better than reduce person on a small character. Except reduce person doesn't take away your hands. Or say a goblin, who can easily have +17 to stealth at first level.


Yeah, I'll update her fox sheet with the good and the bad. Just didn't think of this when I created her character.

Thanks for the clarification.


So at the end of it all what exactly would be the modifiers for everything?


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Grizzly the Archer wrote:
So at the end of it all what exactly would be the modifiers for everything?

Fox Shape acts like Beast Shape II so you get...

• +4 Size Bonus to Dexterity
• -2 Penalty to Strength
• +1 Natural Armor Bonus

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...
• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)
• CMD: -2 Penalty
• AC: +2 Size Bonus
• Attack Rolls: +2 Size Bonus
• Fly Skill: +4 Size Bonus
• Stealth Skill: +8 Size bonus


Gisher wrote:
Grizzly the Archer wrote:
So at the end of it all what exactly would be the modifiers for everything?

Fox Shape acts like Beast Shape II so you get...

• +4 Size Bonus to Dexterity
• -2 Penalty to Strength
• +1 Natural Armor Bonus

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...
• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)
• CMD: -2 Penalty
• AC: +2 Size Bonus
• Attack Rolls: +2 Size Bonus
• Fly Skill: +4 Size Bonus
• Stealth Skill: +8 Size bonus

Awesome. I'm also running a kitsune right now and I couldn't fully figure out his armor.

Isn't there something about armor for tiny creatures that's like half armor bonus. Could've sworn I read something about it.


On top off Gisher's list they should get half AC bonus from armor and use Dex instead of Str for climb and swim checks.

The AC thing won't affect the fox since armor worn while human merges with the fox shape and have no effect.

Liberty's Edge

However, if you wanted to get barding made for the fox form, it would be half the armor bonus. It says so at the bottom of the armor for unusual creatures table in the equipment section.


To point out, if you've got an item can reduce the size of an animal (something akin to an inverted Dire Collar, for example, or just a spell that does it), you COULD still go down yet another size category for yet another boost to AC/Dex/Stealth.

Sovereign Court

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Zarius wrote:
To point out, if you've got an item can reduce the size of an animal (something akin to an inverted Dire Collar, for example, or just a spell that does it), you COULD still go down yet another size category for yet another boost to AC/Dex/Stealth.

No, because that would be two magical size-changing effects. You can have only one.

Sovereign Court

Gisher wrote:

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...

• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)

Why do you get Dex instead of Strenth to CMB again?


Ascalaphus wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...

• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)
Why do you get Dex instead of Strenth to CMB again?

Tiny creatures and smaller use dex instead of str for CMB.

As well as for climb and for swim. It was in a faq. Here it is


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...

• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)
Why do you get Dex instead of Strenth to CMB again?

It's from the Combat Maneuvers section of the CRB.

Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.


Grakul wrote:

On top off Gisher's list they should get half AC bonus from armor and use Dex instead of Str for climb and swim checks.

The AC thing won't affect the fox since armor worn while human merges with the fox shape and have no effect.

Nice catch on the Swim and Climb skills.

Grizzly the Archer wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Additionally you get the following adjustments due to being Tiny...

• CMB: -2 Penalty (and use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod)
Why do you get Dex instead of Strenth to CMB again?

Tiny creatures and smaller use dex instead of str for CMB.

As well as for climb and for swim. It was in a faq. Here it is

I didn't know about that FAQ. There's always more to learn in Pathfinder.

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