Immortals and the gap


General Discussion


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Do they have a "missing" block of sketchy memories?

I'm thinking predominantly extraplanar creatures who were on the material plane prior to the gap and are still there now. However, it could also (potentially) include an android. Has there been any discussion about direct knowledge of "pre gap" times?


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Look at how the elves were affected by the sudden gap in their memories, and how their long lifespan weights more than ever. Regarding immortals I suppose this is a close exemple to how they would be affected.

I don't know about begins such as solars and pit fiends, creatures from the outer sphere, to which hundreds of years are a tiny fraction of their "existence". But they surely were also affected. Some previews even hinted that maybe even the gods might have lost sections of their memories in the gap.


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I think it depends on what exactly they are. I'd imagine there are plenty of servants of the gods who know what went down and just refuse to speak about it, but anyone not in direct service/control of the gods probably has no idea. The Elves are all freaking out because they lost a large chunk of their lives and I doubt the neutral parties from the various planes were trusted to keep that knowledge a secret (Lookin' at you Efreet) but I'd imagine high ranking angels, devils, or psychopomps know the story and just can't talk about it.

Dark Archive

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The first rule of the Gap is we don't talk about the Gap...

Grand Lodge

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So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?


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Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?

Technomancers are not wizards, technomancers are just the norm for casters in SF. 6th-9th level spells still exist, but they're simply not the norm anymore.


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Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?

People kept thier skills, just like they knew who their family is, even if they don't have any memories learning a skill or meeting their spouse. The history books aren't blank, there are words in there but they constantly changing and the pictures look blurred. I think memories are the same, the memories are fuzzy, impossible to put the pieces together. That would be traumatic.


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Rek Rollington wrote:
Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?
People kept thier skills, just like they knew who their family is, even if they don't have any memories learning a skill or meeting their spouse. The history books aren't blank, there are words in there but they constantly changing and the pictures look blurred. I think memories are the same, the memories are fuzzy, impossible to put the pieces together. That would be traumatic.

From what I understand the pages ARE blank, and people do actually have no memories, just skills and personal knowledge (like who their family is).

Silver Crusade

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IonutRO wrote:
Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?
Technomancers are not wizards, technomancers are just the norm for casters in SF. 6th-9th level spells still exist, but they're simply not the norm anymore.

Sure, and if a wizard were to achieve 20th level in the Pathfinder era, they could take immortality as a discovery and still be alive in the Starfinder era, if we assume that the two settings have any crossover. (not disagreeing with you)

While not the norm, wizards could still exist in Starfinder.

Which leads us to the Gap...I'd say yes they have lost their memory, no they've not lost their spell knowledge. They just don't recall learning that stuff.

Grand Lodge

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Dean HS Jones wrote:


Sure, and if a wizard were to achieve 20th level in the Pathfinder era, they could take immortality as a discovery and still be alive in the Starfinder era, if we assume that the two settings have any crossover. (not disagreeing with you)

While not the norm, wizards could still exist in Starfinder.

Which leads us to the Gap...I'd say yes they have lost their memory, no they've not lost their spell knowledge. They just don't recall learning that stuff.

I now have the funniest mental image of a wizard waking up one day going, 'How did I get here?'.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Also, remember that a lot of weird stuff happened during the gap.

What if there aren't any immortal wizards around because something happened to them. What exactly, no one knows.


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it's known that the gap lasted for Millenia. That's why I asked about immortals rather than elves (I only mentioned androids as a special case, it'd be a pretty special set of circumstances for one to live thousands of years).


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Dean HS Jones wrote:
IonutRO wrote:
Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?
Technomancers are not wizards, technomancers are just the norm for casters in SF. 6th-9th level spells still exist, but they're simply not the norm anymore.

Sure, and if a wizard were to achieve 20th level in the Pathfinder era, they could take immortality as a discovery and still be alive in the Starfinder era, if we assume that the two settings have any crossover. (not disagreeing with you)

While not the norm, wizards could still exist in Starfinder.

Which leads us to the Gap...I'd say yes they have lost their memory, no they've not lost their spell knowledge. They just don't recall learning that stuff.

My query is about what they remember before the gap (when they learned their spells).

It's also relevant to archeology. Investigations of periods during the gap run into the "patchy" problem. (There might be records but they're likely to be incomplete, confused or downright contradictory). Does this hold true for investigations into Thassilon? Have they said?


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Since Golarion has disappeared, it would be hard to do archaeological research on Thassilon.

I don't have the book in hand yet, but IIRC someone stated that the Gap lasted about 300 years (not for millenia, or even a millenium).

Grand Lodge

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How would this effect any of the Runelords (assuming some haven't woken up yet)?


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I know but i'm not talking.


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Bellona wrote:
Since Golarion has disappeared, it would be hard to do archaeological research on Thassilon.

Okay, archeological research elsewhere. Historical research on thassilon.

Quote:
I don't have the book in hand yet, but IIRC someone stated that the Gap lasted about 300 years (not for millenia, or even a millenium).

It ended about three hundred years ago. It's known to have lasted for several Millenia.


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The thing about immortal wizards is that they'd remember their skills but all of their spellbooks, all of their research and all of the knowledge they had kept in any written form would be essentially destroyed by the Gap. So even if an immortal wizard still existed he wouldn't have access to most of his own power.


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Eox is full of immortal "wizards" who predate the gap by millenia, you know.


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Their spellbooks would be fine -- they would know how to cast their spells, just not exactly when they learned them.


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Except for all of the 7th-9th level spells of course, they disappeared or got phased out at some point during the Gap.


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Necrovegemite wrote:
Eox is full of immortal "wizards" who predate the gap by millenia, you know.

Has their been any comment on them retaining uncorrupted, pre-gap memories?


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Luke Spencer wrote:
Except for all of the 7th-9th level spells of course, they disappeared or got phased out at some point during the Gap.

7-9th level spells didn't necessarily disappear; we just don't have rules for them (yet). Kind of like witches and psychics at the start of Pathfinder.


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Distant Scholar wrote:
Luke Spencer wrote:
Except for all of the 7th-9th level spells of course, they disappeared or got phased out at some point during the Gap.
7-9th level spells didn't necessarily disappear; we just don't have rules for them (yet). Kind of like witches and psychics at the start of Pathfinder.

Okay fair enough that was a poor choice of words. Perhaps instead I should say they became less common within the Pact Worlds (Eox being one of the best examples due to the ammount of necrovites) as indicated by the fact that they weren't present in the core rulebook which is focused primarily on what is most commonly found in that particular part of the setting.


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Luke Spencer wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
Luke Spencer wrote:
Except for all of the 7th-9th level spells of course, they disappeared or got phased out at some point during the Gap.
7-9th level spells didn't necessarily disappear; we just don't have rules for them (yet). Kind of like witches and psychics at the start of Pathfinder.
Okay fair enough that was a poor choice of words. Perhaps instead I should say they became less common within the Pact Worlds (Eox being one of the best examples due to the ammount of necrovites) as indicated by the fact that they weren't present in the core rulebook which is focused primarily on what is most commonly found in that particular part of the setting.

And even most necrovites probably couldn't cast 7th+ spells, as few characters ever actually get to be high level in-universe.


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IonutRO wrote:
Rek Rollington wrote:
Balancer wrote:
So what would happen to an immortal human wizard? Would they wake up with this large gap in their memory, unable to remember how to cast any spells higher than 6th level?
People kept thier skills, just like they knew who their family is, even if they don't have any memories learning a skill or meeting their spouse. The history books aren't blank, there are words in there but they constantly changing and the pictures look blurred. I think memories are the same, the memories are fuzzy, impossible to put the pieces together. That would be traumatic.
From what I understand the pages ARE blank, and people do actually have no memories, just skills and personal knowledge (like who their family is).

Page 424 goes into more detail. Some pages are blank, some are contradictory (changing between readings).

I suppose that's the best way to tie in Pathfinder. Everything prior to Pathfinder is solid history, the story of actual Pathfinder differ wildly due to Pathfinder player actions so the history from that point on is constantly shifting between the possible outcomes while large parts of the history between then and now are simply unwritten (blank) and can be filled out when the Starfinder Society (and Pazio's writers) discover them.


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Sounds good.

By the way, I don't have my book in hand yet. Can anyone please tell me how far into the future Starfinder is with respect to Pathfinder/Golarion? Or is that left up the individual GM?


Bellona wrote:

Sounds good.

By the way, I don't have my book in hand yet. Can anyone please tell me how far into the future Starfinder is with respect to Pathfinder/Golarion? Or is that left up the individual GM?

Part of the reason that the Gapis a setting feature is so that the devs don't have to answer this particular question.


I thought they did. Several thousand years +300something.


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Balancer wrote:
Dean HS Jones wrote:


Sure, and if a wizard were to achieve 20th level in the Pathfinder era, they could take immortality as a discovery and still be alive in the Starfinder era, if we assume that the two settings have any crossover. (not disagreeing with you)

While not the norm, wizards could still exist in Starfinder.

Which leads us to the Gap...I'd say yes they have lost their memory, no they've not lost their spell knowledge. They just don't recall learning that stuff.

I now have the funniest mental image of a wizard waking up one day going, 'How did I get here?'.

They may not remember, but they would know it's the same as it ever was.


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Voss wrote:
I thought they did. Several thousand years +300something.

So basically, the pathfinder question was "What happened to Aroden"?

Now, the starfinder question will be "What happened to Golarion"?


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Pretty much yeah


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Bellona wrote:

Sounds good.

By the way, I don't have my book in hand yet. Can anyone please tell me how far into the future Starfinder is with respect to Pathfinder/Golarion? Or is that left up the individual GM?

They don't specify what year the Gap started. The only things they confirm is that it's known that the Gap lasted for "several millenia" and that it is universal and ended around 300 years ago. The endpoint wasn't consistent throughout the universe: some places it's more recent, some later. The range given was 275 - 310 years ago (although those are indicative, not stated as hard facts).

There are also fragments of information sources from during the gap and 'pockets' of coherence in different parts of the universe covering different periods. There is potentially a way to collect all these pockets of information from across the galaxy and piece them all together into a coherent train of history from Pre-Gap to Post-Gap (although I'm guessing there's not going to be much canonically released information in such a way, that's kind of the in-world motivation for why people bother investigating such things).

Liberty's Edge

So if a character who was born and lived during the Gap woke up and found themselves in the post-Gap Pact Worlds, what would they remember? Would they remember where they're from, or would they only remember basic stuff like family, skills, etc?

I'm not sure there'd be an official answer to this, but it's an interesting question.


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I think they'd remember where they're from (there was reference to nations emerging from the Gap knowing they were at war with another country but not knowing what started it).

Having said that, it also appears to be inconsistent - so potentially some people would remember and others not (maybe even one planet knows they're at war with another which is completely oblivious to the fact).


Ioun wrote:
Voss wrote:
I thought they did. Several thousand years +300something.

So basically, the pathfinder question was "What happened to Aroden"?

Now, the starfinder question will be "What happened to Golarion"?

I suppose. I don't see either question as particularly mattering or being worth asking.

There are lots of interesting questions, ranging from corporate intrigue, exploration and politics to 'who is paying us today?'

To me, Pathfinder always felt very local, and that is one of its strengths- to focus on a particular area and create some layers. When it starts oozing demons everywhere and having shouty gods giving pop quizes, it loses a lot.

As long as there aren't 'epic' battles for the galaxy every Tuesday, Starfinder has a lot to offer.


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Little something I found interesting about the immortals was, with Eloritu, there are six magic runes. Curiously, Ibra's constellation on his symbol has six major stars (and three lesser ones). Tying Ibra to Eloritu doesn't seem to far off since one holds the 'mysteries' of the universe, and the other is secrets.

I also wonder if the three lesser constellations have something to do with Triune,if only through the correlation of numbers. Interestingly, all three gods are considered neutral without leaning toward law or chaos.


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Ioun wrote:
Voss wrote:
I thought they did. Several thousand years +300something.

So basically, the pathfinder question was "What happened to Aroden"?

Now, the starfinder question will be "What happened to Golarion"?

You know what would be a real troll? If Aroden showed up somewhere in the galaxy right when the gap ended, and because of the gap we'd still be left asking the question "what happened to Aroden?" even then.

Other than that... Imagine an immortal Wizard who's been traveling the galaxy for the whole time during the gap (and wasn't really around before it), essentially became famous on basically every planet they went to, and did this on basically half the planets in the galaxy.

Everyone would be like "hey, I know you!" and have to idea where they know them from. But otherwise it would be like that cheap movie "Dude, where's my car?", but on a galactic scale. Heck, maybe its almost a literal case of that, maybe they left a powerful magical item that has sentimental value to them somewhere in the galaxy, and they've go NO IDEA where they left it or why. Only that it belongs to them.


Gap this, gap that.
now every time someone says it this it what I think.

Big O, it's show time.

that show had no memories either.

Grand Lodge

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Somehow in my head canon, Aroden is playing Dr. Who. He died, (because that's what time lords do.) and eventually came back, saw some risk to the universe and absconded with home world to a unknown location (like Dr. Who did with Gallifrey)

As to whether Torag is now traipsing around in time with Aroden as his companion is still up to conjecture.

Grand Lodge

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Oh god, Tar-Baphon now becomes the Master in this equation,...Mwhahahahahahahh

Liberty's Edge

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From what I can tell, the Gap was retroactive.

That is, history was going along normally with people living their lives with all their memories intact and detailed historical records available... and then suddenly a few thousand years of (non implicit) memory and history were wiped out.

Anyone who lived long enough would thus have normal memories before and after the gap, but only implicit (i.e. unconscious / procedural) memory for the time period covered by the gap.

Historical records are a bigger problem because a lot of them would have been lost or converted to new media during the Gap and thus no longer available afterwards. The physical removal of Golarion, and any old records remaining there, further compounds this problem for the history of that world in particular.


CBDunkerson wrote:
From what I can tell, the Gap was retroactive.

This is probably our default assumption, yes.

... Now odd next question, likely not canon, but its worth playing with the idea...

... What if... The memory/record erase only happened some time after "the gap" ended? Like, suddenly, in what would later be considered 10AG, everybody suddenly forgot everything before 10 years ago... But up until that point they still remembered. Leaving like, 10 years where they were still acting based on existing memories, and that they remember (mostly) but cannot remember what the memory they were acting on was.

This is pure fan-fic thought at this point. Just sounds like something that might make a good story.

What's more likely to happen in verse is that some Alien shows up who's "gap" was misaligned, so for a while it started 10 years before AG for them, retained those memories for 20 years, then mysteriously lost those first 10 years of memory as if they were hit by the gap again.

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