I might let detect evil work. The phylactery is part of the lich, effectively-it's his soul's housing. The lich as a powerful evil undead would have an aura for that spell, and the phylactery was created through some nasty ritual.
If you can detect a soul, that might work. Not sure how to do that.
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How can you tell if a magic item is a Lich's phylactery?
Assuming he's made some effort to disguise it as another magical item and created a fake phylactery that looks like a traditional one. How would the party know otherwise?Especially if he made the real phylactery something the PC's might take as treasure.
How did he disguise the phylactery? Magic Aura is the most common method, and it can be pierced by Greater Detect Magic.
The spell: Legend Lore is another possible option.
The spell Object Reading would probably do it, although it's fooled by Charge Object and Implant False Reading. Psychic magic is a whole lot rarer than arcane or divine, though, so even finding a scroll of that might not be easy.
Also, even even though Magic Aura makes it look like the fake phylactery is magical, it doesn't fool alignment detection. And if you concentrate on Detect Evil for three rounds, you get the locations and power of each evil aura. So, sure, it will detect the evil party members, but just waiting for three rounds makes it easy to tell them apart from the phylactery. I don't think there's a long-lasting way to fool alignments. Undetectable Alignment only lasts a day and spells like Misdirection only last 1 hour per level.
Also, if you would consider the soul of the lich a "creature", simple Deathwatch would do it, but that's a bit of a stretch.
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Had a phylactery destroyed in a game last night. It was a simple jade tea cup hidden in a cupboard with others just like it. The players first cast detect magic, then detect evil, determined it was necromantic and powerful, then destroyed it. They'd beaten the lich physically, so all they had to do was find the phylactery and destroy it. Bear in mind this wasn't just a one shot game; it was the culmination of several adventures where they were tricked and tricked again by false phylacteries made of expensive jewels and other items.
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dc 30 seems way to low a lvl 1 character can get that with a good die roll
If that character basically went all-in on Intelligence and Knowledge (Arcana/Religion), then and only then would they even have a chance and still a pretty slim one.
And consider that that's the same DC as learning useful facts about CR 20 creatures, so ones that are fairly rare and very weird. Compare that to going "I'm pretty sure that something should happen when we smash this guy's soul container." and a DC of 30 seems more than appropriate for this task.Certainly, a DC of 50 as you propose is ludicrous. A DC of 50 is knowing fairly intricate details (three useful facts) about the Tarrasque. Liches and how to destroy them are small potatoes compared to the freaking Armageddon Engine.
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The dungeon in the middle of my world has a Lich who's made his phylactery the lynch pin of a gate that spews demons into the world. Its not even tough to destroy: just a wooden door that starts leaking demons with the first point of damage. The party actually repaired it to keep the gate sealed.
Another Lich made a titanic column that effectively holds up the Dungeon roof and all the floors between. Damage starts all manner of cave ins and such, with slabs of ceiling falling on characters. Players do stupid things, and they kept at it to a TPK and still failed to do enough damage. Sigh...
I would love to see a 3pp produce a piece on phylacteries and Liches, beyond what little is already done. Hint Hint.
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Step 1: Kill lich.
Step 2: See if a lich starts forming near the item. If it does, the item may be a lich's phylactery.
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Lick it. If it tastes like sulfur, you've found the phylactery.
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Lick it. If it tastes like sulfur, you've found the phylactery.Or possibly just a rotten egg
You'd be surprised by how many rotten eggs end up being phylacteries!
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not really dc 50 would be pretty moderate level, dc 30 is far to easy especially since people can get +17 to a skill fairly easily at around level 3-4(if you go all out you can potentially have 1-3 skill at +21 at level 1), the question isn't the dc of knowing if phylacteries exist its is this object a phylactery which would be a far more difficult dc to determine then the one to identify a lichdc 30 seems way to low a lvl 1 character can get that with a good die rollIf that character basically went all-in on Intelligence and Knowledge (Arcana/Religion), then and only then would they even have a chance and still a pretty slim one.
And consider that that's the same DC as learning useful facts about CR 20 creatures, so ones that are fairly rare and very weird. Compare that to going "I'm pretty sure that something should happen when we smash this guy's soul container." and a DC of 30 seems more than appropriate for this task.
Certainly, a DC of 50 as you propose is ludicrous. A DC of 50 is knowing fairly intricate details (three useful facts) about the Tarrasque. Liches and how to destroy them are small potatoes compared to the freaking Armageddon Engine.
Where are you getting DC 50 from?
Liches are typically CR12, add 15 to account for the rarity of the information being sought and the base DC should be 27. It is reasonable to round that up to 30, but 50? Really?
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The primary issue here is the dual assumptions
1: Every party has at least one character who is hyper-specialised in each skill
2: DCs should be keyed so that hyper-specialised characters are still challenged significantly by level-appropriate skill checks
In my experience that creates a pointless arms race where higher DCs prompt further optimising that prompts higher DCs. If you happen to like that style of gaming, then that is different but I think most people find that to be extra work for no extra fun.
Regarding the opening post if the PCs are using knowledge arcana I would rule as follows:
DC27 uniquely identify the Lich
DC32 include information on what the phylactery looks like
DC37 includes likely location
DC42 how it is protected.
If the PCs acquire information by another means I would reduce the DC accordingly. So for example if the PCs already know who the Lich is I would reduce the DC to identify the phylactery to 27.
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not really dc 50 would be pretty moderate level, dc 30 is far to easy especially since people can get +17 to a skill fairly easily at around level 3-4(if you go all out you can potentially have 1-3 skill at +21 at level 1), the question isn't the dc of knowing if phylacteries exist its is this object a phylactery which would be a far more difficult dc to determine then the one to identify a lichdc 30 seems way to low a lvl 1 character can get that with a good die rollIf that character basically went all-in on Intelligence and Knowledge (Arcana/Religion), then and only then would they even have a chance and still a pretty slim one.
And consider that that's the same DC as learning useful facts about CR 20 creatures, so ones that are fairly rare and very weird. Compare that to going "I'm pretty sure that something should happen when we smash this guy's soul container." and a DC of 30 seems more than appropriate for this task.
Certainly, a DC of 50 as you propose is ludicrous. A DC of 50 is knowing fairly intricate details (three useful facts) about the Tarrasque. Liches and how to destroy them are small potatoes compared to the freaking Armageddon Engine.
While it is possible to get +17 on a skill at that level, it requires significant investment beyond just skill points and a class skill. Far more investment than most characters are going to make in a knowledge skill.
synthesist summoner gets you +8 racial bonus to skills of your choice for evolution points as for my builds about 99% of them are rules legal they just aren't using crappy point buys or the terrible pfs rule set
This level of hyper-specialization results in a character that trivializes one specific task at the cost of being significantly less capable at everything else.
Lets just hope you guessed correctly, at first level, which specific skill you needed to min-max around.
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It's just another magic item. So the DC is CL of the item, which is typically 11+15=26. So get a 26 on your spellcraft check.
That is the rules based answer, but for story purposes the GM may not make it that easy.
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If it looks really expensive and there's an angry wizard reforming next to it, it just might be a Phylactery.
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...not really dc 50 would be pretty moderate level, dc 30 is far to easy especially since people can get +17 to a skill fairly easily at around level 3-4(if you go all out you can potentially have 1-3 skill at +21 at level 1), the question isn't the dc of knowing if phylacteries exist its is this object a phylactery which would be a far more difficult dc to determine then the one to identify a lichdc 30 seems way to low a lvl 1 character can get that with a good die rollIf that character basically went all-in on Intelligence and Knowledge (Arcana/Religion), then and only then would they even have a chance and still a pretty slim one.
And consider that that's the same DC as learning useful facts about CR 20 creatures, so ones that are fairly rare and very weird. Compare that to going "I'm pretty sure that something should happen when we smash this guy's soul container." and a DC of 30 seems more than appropriate for this task.
Certainly, a DC of 50 as you propose is ludicrous. A DC of 50 is knowing fairly intricate details (three useful facts) about the Tarrasque. Liches and how to destroy them are small potatoes compared to the freaking Armageddon Engine.How would you get +21 to one skill, never mind 3, at 1st level? I've seen you make other absurd claims that people have called you out on, and none of them sound possible without house rules.
In my experience most people wouldn't have a bonus of more than +9 in any one skill at 1st level. But since the topic is about phylacteries, let's try to find the maximum possible bonus for knowledge arcana/religion.
+5 from ability score
+3 from class skill
+3 from skill focus
+1 from skill rank
+1 from a traitSo we've got a maximum possible bonus of +13 at 1st level. But that's nowhere near your claim of +21. And only towards one skill.
Now your claim of +17 by 4th level is more plausible. But even the most optimized characters would
Not using the listed point buys or following the other attribute allocation rules is actually contradictory to what many would consider a "legal" build, both at their table, and as the general system usually assumes.
Which is why, whenever you give advice, people balk at your statements because they don't get a starting 30 Intelligence modifier like you do at your highly atypical table since your game allows 500+ point buys and 30+ race point custom races.
I (and many others) seriously question why you give advice when that advice is really only applicable at your table, and nowhere else, which is what people are asking advice for (a game NOT at your table).
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For a homebrew, I would say the appropriate DC for a skill check that someone in the party needs to succeed on would be:
Party level+3+3+10
The party level is to represent a character putting 1 rank into the skill in each level, the first +3 is for class skill, the second +3 is assuming a 16 in the related attribute, and 10 as average roll. You might not have a character who exactly fits this, but this will put the skill where the party can use spells or class abilities or other such things to be reasonably likely to succeed in.
Lady J, I would not put a DC that high, simply because characters might be able to reach the DCs you are suggesting if their entire character was based just around that skill. But that is something they can only do for one skill, and so you can't assume the party has that for every skill.
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If it looks really expensive and there's an angry wizard reforming next to it, it just might be a Phylactery.
You would never find my phylactery if that is what you were using as your criteria.
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Most Liches I know hide their soul away from the lair they operate from. Some distant, forgotten place. My favorite is a dragon's hoard. You should really get permission from said dragon as you aren't sure when you'll need to hang out there for a few days to regenerate. Leave yourself a few useful items so you can start rebuilding.
As to identifying one that has been collected by troublesome "Heroes" the spell Detect Evil should be your first step. Yes, if it has been worn by its foolish owner for years and has other evil spells attached to it the Detect Spell won't help much. Having other evil people nearby won't matter, the spell will let you get specific by the third round of concentration.
The higher level divination spells like Legend Lore, Analyzer Dweomer and some psychic abilities should be able to confirm if an object is the phylactery. A sufficiently high DC Spellcraft check to identify the properties of the item should do the job (treat like a Cursed object). Example, if you made it out of an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 the DC to identify a phylactery with Spellcraft is 15 (starting) + 15 (Caster level of the item) +10 (margin of success required to spot a curse) for a total DC of 40. By the time a party can take on a lich, there should be someone in the group who can hit that DC better than half the time.
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An example of a secure phylactery would be a common rock.
Placed in a lead box
Inside a brick
Used in the construction of the foundation of a secondary safehouse. In a sealed basement area that is not included on any blueprints.
The safehouse is located in a major metropolitan area with whom the lich has no obvious connection.
The occupants have no knowledge of the sealed room or what lies embedded in the foundation.
There is a modest collection of artwork guarded by a couple of minor traps. Just in case the hidden room is ever found.
An example of a secure phylactery would be a common rock.
Placed in a lead box
Inside a brick...
So this is an Imp lich? Or a man-sized box in really big brick? I do love the idea of a superintelligent lich not having the wisdom to keep his phylactery in a space large enough for his body to reform in, but I suspect that's not the scenario you had in mind.
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So this is an Imp lich? Or a man-sized box in really big brick? I do love the idea of a superintelligent lich not having the wisdom to keep his phylactery in a space large enough for his body to reform in, but I suspect that's not the scenario you had in mind.
I thought a lich reforms "nearby" its phylactery, not immediately in contact with it. So if you had it in the wall of a room, it would reform in the room near the wall.
Like the aforementioned Lich whose phylactery was a tea cup, that lich probably did not reform inside of the cabinet.
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So this is an Imp lich? Or a man-sized box in really big brick? I do love the idea of a superintelligent lich not having the wisdom to keep his phylactery in a space large enough for his body to reform in, but I suspect that's not the scenario you had in mind.An example of a secure phylactery would be a common rock.
Placed in a lead box
Inside a brick...
The only requirement for rebuilding the body is "nearby."
Thus the basement room; distance between the phylactery and floor would be a matter of inches.
The metal box itself is pretty standard. It is contianed in the baseline phylactery description.
The details of a number of things get hand waved with 'that will mever come up', leaving ample opportunity for 3pp to step in and for campaign rules (house rules are for where we're playing. they are not campaign rules, etc).
4 GMs have actually sat down and hammered out 'rules for their campaign' Liches and why they MUST keep them to hand (4/4). Decreased power for the Lich is one they all went with (4/4), meaning one got 'killed' some 3-5 times because he hid his in a pocket dimension (-5 levels/on every D20 roll). A later group actually thought to detect Portal and found it. 3/4 had the Phylactery do stuff, it already being 'enchanted'. The one Lich had a Word of Recall spell on the phylactery that took both to a secret underwater lair filled with 'unholy water' and various drowning victims. Ever wrassle a waterlogged Ogre zombie while being grappled by other undead? Not pretty.
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How big can a phylactery be?
I mean, if I had a choice, rather than the big conspicuous urn of doom on the ominous pedestal in the dark vault at the bottom of Darkevil Dungeon, . . . I'd rather just make the dungeon itself the phylactery.
/why not a planet?
Edit: Master plan:
1. Craft planet phylactery.
2. Transplant all life on original planet to phylactery.
3. Destroy original planet.
4. Be immortal until some other fool gets the same idea.
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4 GMs have actually sat down and hammered out 'rules for their campaign' Liches and why they MUST keep them to hand.
Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell)
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dc 30 seems way to low a lvl 1 character can get that with a good die roll
For PFS it isn't. With random parties and GM per session, I've been in groups where no one had any knowledge skills. Did one recently with 3 high Str fighters and 2 sorcerers. Terrible perception too. Our solution was to pick up and drag the entire contents a room across town to a named NPC that had skills...GM allowed it, and the plot progressed.
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4 GMs have actually sat down and hammered out 'rules for their campaign' Liches and why they MUST keep them to hand.Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell)
This. A lich's primary thematic element is being a pain in the ass to kill for good. Decreasing their power by making the phylactery easy to find kind of misses the point.