Ok so looking through the wondrous items in the ACG I stumbled upon this.
It costs 2,250 GP and basically does nothing more then turn your male character into a girl, and upon drinking a second one turns you back. The changes are permanent (Barring a second Elixir) and provide no bonuses to Disguise Checks. It explains you still look like the same person just of a different sex.
Why is this a thing?
What is the functions for it?
Does this mean we are about to see Gender specific items?
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It is a thing because some people want to change their sex. That's all there is to it.
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Because the only way to change one's gender in-game is either through polymorph magics or cursed items, and not everyone is comfortable in their own gender. The first time a wizard or alchemist thinks "I wonder what it's like to be a (wo)man," they can figure it out now.
That, or Beguiling Gift shenanigans (though nothing beats the Philter of Love.)
EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...
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EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...
Technically, you are still incorrect. If the GM is that much of a stickler, the Alchemist would have to pick up the 'Master Craftsman' Feat before 'Craft Wonderous Item', they would simply declare Craft (alchemy) their associated Craft skill...
I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.
Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.
I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.
Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.
It originally showed up in a post on the boards not long after Wrath of the Righteous started last year. There is a prominent NPC couple in the first Chapter for whom that item figures strongly, or rather for whom it would figure strongly, if it existed when that AP came out. Putting it in the ACG is likely more of a 'now we can put that argument to bed' kind of thing.
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Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion'sevangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
fixed that one for you.
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EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...Technically, you are still incorrect. If the GM is that much of a stickler, the Alchemist would have to pick up the 'Master Craftsman' Feat before 'Craft Wonderous Item', they would simply declare Craft (alchemy) their associated Craft skill...
Ha, yeah. But with that feat anyone can be an elixir-maker! I still find it silly that RAW elixirs and philters aren't things that can be brewed without being at least 1/4th done with a character. Ah, well, c'est la vie.
Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.
No offense here. Just answering, since questions were asked.
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Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.
That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.
:-P
What other sorts of elixirs do we need?
Elixir of Breast-Enhancement.
Elixir of Liposuction.
Elixir of Face-Lift.
I wrote some spells that can do all of these.
For the muscles part, consider spending points in strength or using a manual.
fixed that one for you.Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion'sevangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
i would think wanting to be able to change someone's sexuality against their will would be no more bigoted than wanting to change their sex against their will. It was important that we have explicit and codified rules for one, why not the other?
What other sorts of elixirs do we need?
Elixir of Breast-Enhancement.
Elixir of Liposuction.
Elixir of Face-Lift.I wrote some spells that can do all of these.
For the muscles part, consider spending points in strength or using a manual.
I think that you make a good point that we already have a mechanism in place to create this kind of magic at any table where it might seem appropriate or necessary.
Of course, such a potion would work both ways ...Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.
:-P
Of course. Absolutely.
I can actually think of some interesting scenarios you could run surrounding that, like thwarting a royal marriage intended to produce an heir...
It originally showed up in a post on the boards not long after Wrath of the Righteous started last year. There is a prominent NPC couple in the first Chapter for whom that item figures strongly, or rather for whom it would figure strongly, if it existed when that AP came out. Putting it in the ACG is likely more of a 'now we can put that argument to bed' kind of thing.I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.
Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.
It's interesting - we just finished our run in the AP (truly awesome campaign incidentally once Mythic rules were thrown out) and this never once played a role in our game. Never even came up. Of course, we were more focused on the whole 'rid the world of the demonic scourge that threatened to destroy it' rather than exploring the social ramifications of an interracial lesbian couple that also apparently needed to be transgender, so now I'm wondering if we missed the point entirely...
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Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.
Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.
Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.
People in real life have been forced to deal with lots of things that remain possible - and in some cases are even encouraged - in this game. If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?
I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?
People in real life have been raped, murdered, tortured, made slaves, etc. but fantasy gaming (Paizo included) have never shied away from these topics, what makes this one so sacred that it cannot be addressed fully?
People in real life have been raped, murdered, tortured, made slaves, etc. but fantasy gaming (Paizo included) have never shied away from these topics, what makes this one so sacred that it cannot be addressed fully?
Most likely, the Paizo developer who created this item (for the best intentions) did not realize the can of worms they were opening.
That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda.
I think this is the real problem.
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i would think wanting to be able to change someone's sexuality against their will would be no more bigoted than wanting to change their sex against their will. It was important that we have explicit and codified rules for one, why not the other?fixed that one for you.Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion'sevangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
The bigotry comes from calling it cure Homosexuality, which implies that Homosexuality is something that requires curing.
Also, the 'important that we have explicit and codified rules for one', was because a rather ugly & vocal minority flipped their s#%@ when Wrath of the Righteous had the audacity to have a prominent NPC be a fully functioning Male-to-Female transgender, so one of the Paizo staff whipped up a magic item that could have accomplished the job and there were enough members of the customer base that said 'cool!' that they went ahead and added it to the magic item list on the next hardcover book they had in the pipeline.
So I just realized that with the Investigator/Alchemist Alchemical Allocation extract you can drink the Sex Shift Elixir, spit it back into the container and redrink it indefinitely so long as you keep preparing your extracts.
... Which is entirely disgusting and unsanitary, but I'm sure people will find out some extremely funny ways to make use of this fact.
Now I know what extract I need to pick up next...
EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...
Now that is SOME bullsh*t right there. What gives, APG devs?
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Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.
Umm, isn't the only reason transsexuals need their own movement because the current state of medical science is incapable of replicating the effects of this elixir?
Your family should (emphasis on should) be cool with you no matter what you do, and if friends don't accept the change they weren't really friends anyway.
The problem is that a large number of MTFs simply cannot pass as women due to their facial features, bone structure, or what have you, and they cannot acquire a working uterus at present.
Meanwhile, FTMs have far more limited options for corrective surgery, because it's a lot harder to create something that wasn't there than to rearrange something that is, and consequently their medical remedies at present are pretty terrible.
In a perfect world, a person with gender dysphoria could simply say "so, a hormonal trigger was switched on/failed to activate during the first month of gestation, and this procedure is meant to correct that."
But given how messed up gender roles in society are (where women are *ALWAYS* evaluated at least partially based on their suitability as breeding partners even when the context makes that completely and utterly irrelevant [such as Supreme Court Justices]), the unconvincing and surface-level nature of current procedures forces people with gender dysphoria into a cognitive space that acts like an "Uncanny Valley" for bigots.
When medical science catches up with this magic item, the phrase "I was born with different genitals" will be no more relevant than "I was born with a cleft palate." It would just be a biochemical error rectified ages ago, and no one would care.
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Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.
When your town is being stomped into the ground by gøddamned stone giants while ghouls feast on the moldering bones of your dead, I highly doubt anyone will give one single, solitary f*ck what you did in the privacy of the smoldering crater where your bedroom used to be.
Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.
Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.
Check the Shaman iconic. The Elixir of Sex Shift is written rules to explain how she changes her sex to match her gender in-universe.
If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?
I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?
Who said it is "important"? It is one magic item in one book in a game system with many books that have many magic items. Is every single magic item "important"? So important that Paizo is blameworthy for failing to exhaust every single concept with all possible variations?
"Look! They have a magic item called a 'Folding Boat.' But, just a second here. . .hey! There's no mention of a 'Folding Wagon!' I can't find a 'Folding Cart' either! Some people like to travel by land. What sort of maritime agenda are they trying to foist on us?"
If you don't like the item, house-rule it away. Done. Easy peasy.
I don't think Paizo is the one with the agenda here.
If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?
I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?
Who said it is "important"? It is one magic item in one book in a game system with many books that have many magic items. Is every single magic item "important"? So important that Paizo is blameworthy for failing to exhaust every single concept with all possible variations?
I don't think Paizo is the one with the agenda here.
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated it publicly. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?
C'mon man. I doubt even you believe that. Nor do I think you need to pretend that you do in an effort to smear me personally. When you stop discussing the topic at hand and resort to attacking an individual instead, you've already lost the debate.
Didn't we already have this discussion?
Yes and no.
We had a very similar discussion about Shardra Geltl.
But this is about this item. Which, while it may have been created to support her story, is rife with possibilities for abuse.
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?
There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.
In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.
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Didn't we already have this discussion?Yes and no.
We had a very similar discussion about Shardra Geltl.
But this is about this item. Which, while it may have been created to support her story, is rife with possibilities for abuse.
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.
In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.
Oh I don't disagree at all. I can acknowledge that its a noble and laudable goal while at the same time holding the position that its inappropriate to use their game as a platform to push a socially progressive agenda that is of dubious benefit to a small minority of its patronage, especially when considering that most people who engage in gaming do so with the understanding that its a safe haven from such socio-political heavy-handedness. That's my opinion but I'm not alone in it... and if that opinion happens to be a minority one, well then I'm confidant that in the interest of fairness, Paizo will champion me next, eh?
This is likely my ignorance showing, but its my understanding that 1) the struggle of being born physically different than they are mentally or emotionally is one of the greatest hardships facing our transgender population and that 2) Pathfinder is a fantasy game. Who's fantasy is it to relive the hardships they suffer in daily life every day?
Oh I don't disagree at all. I can acknowledge that its a noble and laudable goal while at the same time holding the position that its inappropriate to use their game as a platform to push a socially progressive agenda that is of dubious benefit to a small minority of its patronage, especially when considering that most people who engage in gaming do so with the understanding that its a safe haven from such socio-political heavy-handedness. That's my opinion but I'm not alone in it... and if that opinion happens to be a minority one, well then I'm confidant that in the interest of fairness, Paizo will champion me next, eh?That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.
In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.
Actually, using their game to "push a socially progressive agenda" is (IMO) not a bad thing. Like any other form of entertainment, it can and (if handled carefully) should also spread ideas. (At its best Star Trek is a good example of this.)
The problem is that I feel that Paizo needs to throttle things back a bit - they are being too heavy-handed. If an agenda is pushed too hard, it can lose the very people who it needs to reach.
So, no, you are not alone in your impression. I see that my perception is (at least) parallel to yours.
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So, Ranma is an Alchemist?
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Ok so looking through the wondrous items in the ACG I stumbled upon this.
It costs 2,250 GP and basically does nothing more then turn your male character into a girl, and upon drinking a second one turns you back. The changes are permanent (Barring a second Elixir) and provide no bonuses to Disguise Checks. It explains you still look like the same person just of a different sex.
Why is this a thing?
What is the functions for it?Does this mean we are about to see Gender specific items?
You got hit with a reincarnate spell and came back as a different sex?
You got hit with a reincarnate spell and came back as a different sex?
RAW Reincarnate doesn't have a sex-switch mechanic. It's purely race. Though I know of a popular homebrew chart that takes ARG races into account and threw in a sex-determinator in as well.
Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.
:-P
Much maligned as I am to make a pithy comment on a subject as sensitive as this. Such an item would definitely make "it's not a choice" arguments a tad unwieldily to use in Golarion. Granted the cost of such an item would easily put it out of the hands of almost everyone ever in that setting.
As to later comments about why similarly-themed items are not just going all the way, I'd say it's likely a combination of American legal and litigation concerns (a lawsuit, even if tenuous, can bring unwanted bad publicity and still significant legal expenses even if beaten in court). Paizo is an American company, subject to such publishing laws, and outright creating such items might offend the sensitivities of people who simply want to bury their head in the sand, not wanting to be challenged in their thoughts, beliefs, and convictions.
Personally I'm in your camp of pretty much going all the way with the thought experiments that can be done with such items. Ideas are just like anything else in this quality, to quote good ole' Urdnot Wrex.
Anything that goes unchallenged becomes weak.
That said, much as I'm confident in my ability to GM in such situations, I doubt there are currently very many entire tables that could handle these things. For every transgendered person seeking to emulate the strength and resolve to go through what needs to be done for them to be at peace with themselves, there are still probably a half-dozen players who just want to use the item for things like "making the nobleman who's expected to produce an heir totally wake up next to a dude!"
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Once again, Wiggz, you are so on point it's scary.
With your Kolchak-level investigative reporting, you have discovered and outed our agenda.
Curses!
We had hoped that we could insidiously inject your RPG games with optional social liberalism and inclusivity; options that you could easily opt out of in your own games before you noticed it, but you found us out! The next step to offering inclusive options was totally going to be physically enforcing it at your game table, but we would never get away with that now!
We're deeply sorry that making the game a space where everyone feels welcome and can tell whatever stories they want to has singled you out and made you feel victimized, because you certainly have never personally been catered to in every form of media for the last forever, and now that other kinds of people are being catered to, the world that you know is under attack by our agenda!
Next time, Gadget! Next time!!
Am I the only one whose reaction to such an item is to figure how to make a delayed-effect version and then "spike" the drinks at wild parties?
Thanks, i now have another idea for a potential sidequest.
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Why is this item getting so much attention?
It's self explanatory in function, and should it be something you would never use, then why should you care?
Really, why is this even in the rules forum?
It's a make-believe magic item.
Not some allegory for the trails of the transgender community, or a tool of some kind agenda.
Seriously, are we going to say the Decanter of Endless Water is statement about poverty in Africa?
Why are we doing this?
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Why does item have to represent something?
Why can it not be taken, as is?
Do we need to analyze every magic item, to discover what it represents, and then hypothesize the agenda behind every magic item?
What does the Bag of Everlasting Dung represent? What is the agenda behind such an item?