I was using it as Gather Information used to be, except you could also use it to gather information from yourself (i.e. remember). But I just noticed that Diplomacy encompasses the Gather Information mechanics now, so I'm not sure what to do with it either.
According to the SRD, Knowledge Local encompasses things like the laws of the land, which you wouldn't necessarily "gather" from social encounters, unless you have a character with a particular hankering to consult with a barrister from the second they enter town.
Also, you get to know personalities that aren't necessarily social and a feel for institutions that already exist without the added frustration and/or unwanted attention of walking up to the thieve's guild and asking the polite lady behind the counter if she could please tender to you a flow chart with each branch of their operation unto you to save you the trouble of possibly getting a knife in your back if you really do want that information.
But yes, I will agree that the skills are somewhat clunky. As a player that runs bards frequently, I do not use so much local unless specifically asked by the GM and I cannot remember the last time that happened...
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All of the Knowledge skills are impossibly broad. Take a look at Knowledge (Nature), since that has some pretty solid real-world comparisons.
Knowledge (Nature) covers every field within zoology and botany. You can know as much about whales as monkeys as elm trees as mushrooms as bacteria. Ask any biologist and they will tell you that one person being competent in all those fields (let along a master) is ludicrous in the real world. Oh, and toss in that you also know about fey, monstrous humanoids and meteorology. Because the almanac and minotaurs are always taught together in school.
Now lets look at Knowledge (Religion). You know things about gods, myths, religious practices, symbols and undead. Yep. Because you studied well at Seminary, you know the weaknesses of Vampires too. That makes perfect sense.
Knowledge (Arcana)? Ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons and magical beasts. Because golems and dragons are so incredibly similar.
I won't go on because I think the point is made. Knowledge (Local) is really better named Knowledge (Humanoids). It's the Knowledge (Nature) for humanoids. It tells you where humanoids live, things about their nature, what kinds of stuff they like/dislike, and some about their past.
If you are going to make Knowledge (Local) be specialized based on location, then you might as well do so for all the other knowledges.
I won't go on because I think the point is made. Knowledge (Local) is really better named Knowledge (Humanoids). It's the Knowledge (Nature) for humanoids. It tells you where humanoids live, things about their nature, what kinds of stuff they like/dislike, and some about their past.
I really like this. I'm going to use it this way in my game. Thanks!
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Thanks for the input, guys. Knowledge Local was really the only Knowledge Skill that bugged me. I don't have a problem with the other Knowledge skills being unrealistically broad. I mean, we are afterall, playing a game in which magic is real and there are monsters, other sentient races besides humans, etc...
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A good option that was suggested in another thread is to select one "region" when you take the skill and to add another region every time you increase it, a bit like linguistic and languages.
So you take Knowledge (local) at rank 1 and select Varisia, next level you add 1 to the rank, add Nidal and check both with 2 ranks in the skill, and so on.
About the breadth of knowledge of the different skills, it is true you know about plants and animals and weather, but not at the level of a modern zoologist, botanist or meteorologist.
Three century ago the difference between a zoologist and a botanist would have been meaningless.
Having had a GM tell me that I can only use Knowledge (Local) at a disadvantage because my character was not from the area, I have hopefully the unique experience of knowing that that manner of shirking on a skill is incredibly lame.
Case in point was a Serpent Skull game. My character, a rogue, was from the Shackles. She was the only one in the group who had Knowledge local trained, and there was no bard. 5th level character with IIRC 2 ranks, for a total of 6 or 7 in the skill, rolled over a 10, and the GM decided, "well, I am going to give you a penalty since you're not from Eledar" and did not give us the information we were looking for. Party paladin was upset because he had to waste game time interviewing people to learn basic information.
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James Jacobs had a wonderful comment about Knowledge (local).
Having ranks in the skill does not mean simply that you know about one specific area. It does not mean instant knowledge about every town in the world. You know how to learn about a region. You can look around town and quickly figure out where to find the local leaders, for example.
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Thanks for the input, guys. Knowledge Local was really the only Knowledge Skill that bugged me. I don't have a problem with the other Knowledge skills being unrealistically broad. I mean, we are afterall, playing a game in which magic is real and there are monsters (1), other sentient races besides humans (2), etc...
(1) Honey Badgers and almost everything that lives in Australia.
(2) Dolphins. I sometimes wonder about humans, present company excluded of course.
(1) Honey Badgers and almost everything that lives in Australia.(2) Dolphins. I sometimes wonder about humans, present company excluded of course.
1) It's a fact! Honey badgers, bullets ants, jellyfish 20ft across lots of monsters.
2) dolphins, elephants, several beings pass the rouge test.
I like the idea of Know(Local) having 2 sides to it.
(1) Specific to a region: Having ranks in this means you know an area well. You know the people, the places, relatively current events. You know that this suburb town has an Orc problem, that the Church of Mathoine is in the Westboro district, and you know a hole in the wall that makes the best chicken pies in the region. You know that the Brandside neighborhood (South of the market, which has a nice family run micro-brewery) has a hidden gang war, and that Freddy Four Fingers is in charge of the Street Sharks, who like to use poisoned knives as their calling card and have claimed some abandoned catacombs as their hidden underground. Effectively, you are a source of info which other ppl turn to, to get information about the area. This can be very useful in an urban adventure, because you know who to talk to, where to hide out, and so on.
(2) Synergy: I also propose that ranks in this skill are added to ranks to other skills if they pertain to the region. For example, to figure out what you know about a church in "your backyard", you could add the ranks of Know Religion and Know Local. To know about the animals common to the region, add Know Local + Know Nature. This could explain why your garden variety villager can know all there is to know about the Elephants (CR7; DC 17 to know anything relevant) that live nearby.
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James Jacobs had a wonderful comment about Knowledge (local).
Having ranks in the skill does not mean simply that you know about one specific area. It does not mean instant knowledge about every town in the world. You know how to learn about a region. You can look around town and quickly figure out where to find the local leaders, for example.
I like this. This is what I will be doing from now on.
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As someone who's done a fair bit of traveling, I don't make Local or Geograpy specific to regions. Whether I'm in Canada, Spain or Senegal, cities are cities and people are people. Communities share a lot of similarities wherever you go, enough that I feel a broad application to the Local and Geography skills is acceptable. Having more ranks in the skill just means you've studied more about the places you might someday visit. Besides, it's still possible to fail a knowledge check, and, in that case, it just means the character hasn't read much about that subject or doesn't remember what he's learned.
We have a bit of a house rule in our games with factions. (We use Hero Lab so factions are something you can select for your character. I have added a "faction" for every nation... like with PFS but everything in the inner sea world guide is a choice.)
So a character gets his homeland as a free faction. Then any other factions he chooses to take with DM approval from RP are added to the list of factions. (This covers both regions and things like guilds or schools.) You can also get to add a regional faction if you live in the area for six months or more.
Having a faction provides a couple of benefits.
1. You can use and learn any traits/feats/spells that are from that region.
2. Knowledge Local will now apply to that region or group of people.
3. You can learn a language common to that region via linguistics without having to deal with that portion of the RP. (In our world you cannot level up and learn "Orc" unless you have access to something that speaks/reads/writes "Orc".)
4. You have a chance to be "known" in that faction... for good or bad.
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James Jacobs had a wonderful comment about Knowledge (local).
Having ranks in the skill does not mean simply that you know about one specific area. It does not mean instant knowledge about every town in the world. You know how to learn about a region. You can look around town and quickly figure out where to find the local leaders, for example.
+1