Grandfathering request: Lore Warden


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 1/5

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Would Campaign Leadership please agree to grandfathering of the original Lore Warden fighter archetype?

Many of the arguments for doing so have been hashed out in earlier threads, but I will try to summarise succinctly.

1. the archetype does not have any similar equivalent: whilst some mechanical elements can be replicated with other classes, these alternatives have very different role-play connotations (eg Untamed Rager is not a scholarly fighter).
2. the new version of the archetype is very different than the original.
3. rebuilding will be very hard to do because to preserve the mechanical aspects of the original would require departing from the essential role-play characteristics of the scholarly fighter.
4. players have purchased content in good faith that has been invalidated by the unexpected revision presented in Adventurers' Guide.

Others may wish to present additional arguments.

Thanks for your consideration.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

I don't have a character that uses Lore Warden so I don't have a "pony" in this race, but I support those who wish to have this done.

1/5

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Supervillain seems to have brought up most of the relevant points.

I would also add that "let the players use Adventurer's Guide content if they show the Field Guide" violates one of the stated purposes of requiring players to own the books. With that ruling, GMs can no longer ask to see the player's resource to verify how an ability works. "Just check the PRD" doesn't work if nobody in the group has immediate internet access.

I agree with supervillain, though; please grandfather in oldLoreWarden.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
shaventalz wrote:
I would also add that "let the players use Adventurer's Guide content if they show the Field Guide" violates one of the stated purposes of requiring players to own the books. With that ruling, GMs can no longer ask to see the player's resource to verify how an ability works. "Just check the PRD" doesn't work if nobody in the group has immediate internet access.

You should bring a printout of the PRD if you don't have reliable internet access or a tablet with the screencaps.

I'm ambivalent about including a grandfather clause to the changes.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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Personally I dislike grandfathering of stuff that goes illegal.
Like grandfathering races is fine because they are still legal via boons.
Grandfathering a class that is illegal but reopened via chronicle would be fine.
But grandfathering classes that are illegal to me is annoying because then people show off and play these classes that have been deemed as inappropriate for PFS play and usually will slow track them, doubling the time they have to use their inappropriate option, plus holding onto them to only play certain scenarios, thus elongating the time more that it takes grandfathered classes to leave the system.
Like I still see grandfathered Mystic theurge that are only like lv9 now from doing the above.
While I can understand that the character's build and vision is quite possibly broken and irreparable with current legal material, I prefer in principle to keep with the change. This seems to effectively supposed to be viewed and handled as change via errata for PFS, and it's stated in the rules as stuff that happens and that you'll need to change for it. So while purchased in good faith, that good faith was supposed to already be aware that things could change any day when new errata comes out. So the fact that the errata isn't the same book doesn't really change that it's errata.

I do support that the rebuild offered maybe be more than normal, allowing for potentially up to a complete rebuild of the character.

Silver Crusade

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I'm in favor of grandfathering this.

I don't have a lore warden myself any more. I actually did have one that I played once at level 1, but I had too many PCs and never got around to playing him again. I eventually rebuilt him two or three years later, when I had another PC idea that excited me more.

I'm just opposed to screwing over players, in general.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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The summoners got to stay. Are lore wardens nearly as bad?

*pawprint*

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

I second what BNW said. This is a pretty big redo of the archetype. Given the precedent of APG Summoners not having to rebuild, I would ask that you allow those of us with Lore Wardens to keep our current characters without needing to rebuild.

(I'm also sad about what happened to the Enlightened Bloodrager, but that's another story.)

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I support this request... But I have to admit that I still don't understand why this archetype had to be changed.

Hmm

PS I have no Lorewardens.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I have only one PFS character. He is heavily multiclassed to be a somewhat efficient Halfling Opportunist. The build relies rather strongly on the old Lore Warden. If it cannot be grandfathered, I will have to rebuild my character completely or he will turn out very different and even less viable than he currently is :-(

Scarab Sages 4/5

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As someone without any Lore Wardens, I support grandfathering them. I just don't see keeping the old ones around as something that is going to cause any major problems, while forcing them to rebuild is going to impact a lot of characters. Something similar to APG Summoner requiring they be 2nd level and have played a game with Lore Warden levels seems like it would be fine.

4/5

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My seeker is a 14th level Lore Warden/Duelist. He will probably only get to play in one scenario a year. How can that be worth the effort of a total rebuilding? He certainly isn't stealing the spotlight from the other seekers.

Dark Archive

Please don't. Too much stacking CMB bonuses into absurdity. Please allow full rebuilds, but no grandfathering.
Summoners were a class completely rebuilt from the ground up. This is just an archtype change.
To allow someone that has a level 2 lore warden to be so completely different from a fresh level 1 lore warden is too much.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

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I support the grandfathering of Lore Wardens. It's a pretty drastic change and I haven't seen any problems with them locally.

1/5

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Please don't. Too much stacking CMB bonuses into absurdity. Please allow full rebuilds, but no grandfathering.

Summoners were a class completely rebuilt from the ground up. This is just an archtype change.
To allow someone that has a level 2 lore warden to be so completely different from a fresh level 1 lore warden is too much.

It requires a complete rebuild, feats and abilities change. Also that means that you must purchase a new book to play your existing character, unless they suspend the rule for owning the material for this archetype. And that would create even more problems than grandfathering.

Dark Archive

thorin001 wrote:
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Please don't. Too much stacking CMB bonuses into absurdity. Please allow full rebuilds, but no grandfathering.

Summoners were a class completely rebuilt from the ground up. This is just an archtype change.
To allow someone that has a level 2 lore warden to be so completely different from a fresh level 1 lore warden is too much.

It requires a complete rebuild, feats and abilities change. Also that means that you must purchase a new book to play your existing character, unless they suspend the rule for owning the material for this archetype. And that would create even more problems than grandfathering.

No it doesn't. You have to own the source material to use the class features, so yes if you wish to use any version of Lore Warden you have to own the new book?

1/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I have no lorewardens and I support this message.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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thorin001 wrote:
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Please don't. Too much stacking CMB bonuses into absurdity. Please allow full rebuilds, but no grandfathering.

Summoners were a class completely rebuilt from the ground up. This is just an archtype change.
To allow someone that has a level 2 lore warden to be so completely different from a fresh level 1 lore warden is too much.

It requires a complete rebuild, feats and abilities change. Also that means that you must purchase a new book to play your existing character, unless they suspend the rule for owning the material for this archetype. And that would create even more problems than grandfathering.

They've already said, once the PRD is updated you need to use that source but are able to use your book as the ownership requirements. So if you have the old book, just print out the PRD for the new stuff you use and you're good to go.

Sovereign Court 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Savannah aka KitsuneWarlock

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Rebuilding this is going to be a total headache. I already had to make little flash cards with all my feats for this balanced-if-not-underpowered character, and now I'm going to have to retrain numerous class levels and feats to fit everything into the same way.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The summoners got to stay. Are lore wardens nearly as bad?

*pawprint*

And I opposed that too. A bad idea remains bad. No need to repeat it


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Let the people who bought your books use your books. Not buy your book then have to do more stuff to use what is not what you bought the book for.

Updates and Errata should not only make things worse.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Post deleted.

Mine as well. Just one left. ^_^

Shadow Lodge

I personally have several characters that dipped into lore warden (2 levels) however the loss of a feat in those instances does Irreparable harm to all of those characters

I support Grandfathering ... or at the very least Full Rebuilds of the affected PC's

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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As a GM, the updates have been a pretty solid round of fixes to things that were too powerful.

Lore Warden's fate is unfortunate but not grossly so unless you were a Lore Warden dipper.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Douglas Edwards wrote:

As a GM, the updates have been a pretty solid round of fixes to things that were too powerful.

Lore Warden's fate is unfortunate but not grossly so unless you were a Lore Warden dipper.

So it is 'unfortunate' that a knowledge skill-accessing fighter archetype has been removed from consideration for a good portion of folks?

Silver Crusade 1/5

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Douglas Edwards wrote:

As a GM, the updates have been a pretty solid round of fixes to things that were too powerful.

Lore Warden's fate is unfortunate but not grossly so unless you were a Lore Warden dipper.

You make it sound like anyone who isn't "pure" lore warden is some kind of munchkin.

Lore Warden has been around for 7 years. It is, imho, quite unreasonable to say that an option that has been available for 7 years should all of a sudden be regarded as egregiously overpowered and meriting the nerf hammer.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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Its not THAT bad as is - everyone acts like it has been reduced to complete unplayableness and it just hasn't.

It IS dumb that you lose a feat (especially since you're effectively losing 3 feats in armor and shield proficiencies already) but a fighter with a brawler's maneuver training is still pretty good at what it does.

Alternatively, getting Know thy enemy done quicker is pretty solid and creates a new and more in keeping with the "Smart Fighter" option.

1/5

Douglas Edwards wrote:

As a GM, the updates have been a pretty solid round of fixes to things that were too powerful.

Lore Warden's fate is unfortunate but not grossly so unless you were a Lore Warden dipper.

As someone with a near-"pure" Lore Warden (dipped out of it for one level), I have to disagree quite strongly with you view.

The new Lore Warden loses what I used it for, and still nerfs the stuff I saw as too weak to use.

Douglas Edwards wrote:

Its not THAT bad as is - everyone acts like it has been reduced to complete unplayableness and it just hasn't.

It IS dumb that you lose a feat (especially since you're effectively losing 3 feats in armor and shield proficiencies already) but a fighter with a brawler's maneuver training is still pretty good at what it does.

Alternatively, getting Know thy enemy done quicker is pretty solid and creates a new and more in keeping with the "Smart Fighter" option.

Four feats in armor and shields (don't forget the poor, maligned Tower Shield.)

Brawler's maneuver training is passable in limited circumstances, with a narrow focus. Not "pretty good", not even "decent" unless you plan on only fighting medium bipeds with class levels.

Know Thy Enemy is bad. Standard action for +2 attack and damage, lasting 1/2 level rounds. So until 6th, I spend a standard action to... get +2 for a single round. If you want someone that can do this, the Slayer does it much better, AND it comes with more skill points, AND it keeps medium armor and shields.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

supervillan wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:

As a GM, the updates have been a pretty solid round of fixes to things that were too powerful.

Lore Warden's fate is unfortunate but not grossly so unless you were a Lore Warden dipper.

You make it sound like anyone who isn't "pure" lore warden is some kind of munchkin.

Lore Warden has been around for 7 years. It is, imho, quite unreasonable to say that an option that has been available for 7 years should all of a sudden be regarded as egregiously overpowered and meriting the nerf hammer.

But were you really using Combat Expertise for combat expertise in the first place?

The text is still pretty favorable. You just lose an extra bonus feat and don't get to use the defensive fighting aspects of Combat Expertise.

The mega nerf here is one feat which I get makes a HUGE difference in terms of builds but the ability to access those feats without 13 int is pretty decent and until last year Lore Warden was the only way to do it but in the end its probably not entirely build-shattering

1/5

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Douglas Edwards wrote:
But were you really using Combat Expertise for combat expertise in the first place?

Nope. Which is why being forced to pay for it now is just another kick in the teeth. If I'm paying for a feat tax, you'd better believe I'm picking Dirty Fighting first.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

You're not really paying for it though - you're circumventing a requirement for it.

To be clear though none of this is why I oppose grandfathering - I oppose grandfathering because as a VO the bookkeeping required of us is already pretty heavy. Adding in more necessary character audits to make sure a character is truly and correctly granfathered isn't something I want.

1/5

Douglas Edwards wrote:

You're not really paying for it though - you're circumventing a requirement for it.

To be clear though none of this is why I oppose grandfathering - I oppose grandfathering because as a VO the bookkeeping required of us is already pretty heavy. Adding in more necessary character audits to make sure a character is truly and correctly granfathered isn't something I want.

If I went straight Fighter, I would have a feat at 2nd. I trade that feat for pseudo-Combat Expertise. Or, alternatively, that's requiring the archetype to take a certain feat at a given level (and then not actually GIVING it.) Yes, that's paying for it.

I can't say anything as to your experience with character audits. In my experience, they either don't happen, happen after the fact when someone does something that's always been illegal, or they happen in an online game with plenty of prep time.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

Yes but what you might NOT have is an int of 13. That's the purpose of it.

It IS totally useless at that level but its not nothing.

If it were up to me I would have done one (removing full access to Combat Expertise but allowing the regular bonus feat still) or the other (just flat out granting Combat Expertise without the int requirement) but not both as they have done.

But what I don't want to have to do as a VO is keep track of who all has a special rules-bending grandfather clause in the region.

It was admittedly worse with the APG summoner, precisely because it was so game-shatteringly good, but I just don't want that to be the precedent every time something like this happens.

3/5

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Douglas you're giving up a feat that you would otherwise have if you weren't taking the archetype, it's functionally equivalent to playing a core fighter and taking Combat Expertise as a feat. And the real issue is that this has rendered people's characters unplayable. Maneuver training is not good because specializing in a single combat maneuver is not good, and the bonus from maneuver training is garbage to begin with. The other abilities of the Lore Warden are... really not good. Not a person on this earth was complaining about how Lore Warden was OP and needs nerfs because it's a dang fighter archetype, so it baffles me why they even did this in the first place, but the fact that it fundamentally and irreparably cripples builds that made use of it to the point where they either can't be played anymore or have to be retrained into less thematically appropriate options is appalling. And I'm sorry but "I don't personally want to do more bookkeeping" is not an excuse to support ruining other people's characters.

Grand Lodge

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I don't have a LW, but I fully support grandfathering. It will prevent a lot more problems and heartache than not grandfathering.

1/5

Douglas Edwards wrote:

Yes but what you might NOT have is an int of 13. That's the purpose of it.

It IS totally useless at that level but its not nothing.

Again, Dirty Fighting. Don't need Int 13, COUNTS as Int 13 and some other goodies, and gives a situational benefit a "maneuver master" type can actually use.

And if you don't have Int 13, newLoreWarden doesn't help any. You still need that Int to pick up the maneuver feats that the archetype is supposed to support - check their prereqs.

3/5

As an added bonus, Lore Warden wants Int anyway because they're the Int Skill Fighter archetype, so really that only affects 2 level dips.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

shaventalz wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:

Yes but what you might NOT have is an int of 13. That's the purpose of it.

It IS totally useless at that level but its not nothing.

Again, Dirty Fighting. Don't need Int 13, COUNTS as Int 13 and some other goodies, and gives a situational benefit a "maneuver master" type can actually use.

And if you don't have Int 13, newLoreWarden doesn't help any. You still need that Int to pick up the maneuver feats that the archetype is supposed to support - check their prereqs.

Which wasn't an option before for a lot of people (myself included) when they made their Lore Wardens.

Retraining really is pretty viable here and is a one time pain in the butt.

Grandfathering is a many times over pain in the butt on people who already have a lot of those thrust on them. The only option we have is to lessen the load is to literally just be negligent which isn't something that should be encouraged.

1/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I often wish to see published works of banned content that re-balances them enough to be legal for play. For example, I doubt I will ever see a new book that has a redesigned synthesist or an eldritch archer.

5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

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Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
My seeker is a 14th level Lore Warden/Duelist. He will probably only get to play in one scenario a year. How can that be worth the effort of a total rebuilding? He certainly isn't stealing the spotlight from the other seekers.

Exactly. My 13.2 LW rarely even makes full attacks or combat maneuvers because I'd rather spend my combat time helping other players do cool things. The old LW was flexible enough that I could do a lot of useful things other than lay out ridiculous amounts of damage every round. If I retrain into the new LW, I lose the entire flavor and flexibility of the character. But I'd be able to lay down even more ridiculous amounts of damage every round. I just don't want to.

By making the LW 'less powerful', you have actually increased my damage output while making me unable to do anything but damage.

Forcing the change to the LW harms any player who chose the archetype for its flavor and RP, while making it even easier to powergame- which seems to be exactly what the update was trying to avoid.

In 20+ years of gaming, I have never requested grandfathering, as I find the process extremely distasteful. I'm asking for grandfathering now.

Scarab Sages 5/5

I'm unclear how the new more warden actually adds to damage?

Silver Crusade 1/5

Tallow wrote:
I'm unclear how the new more warden actually adds to damage?

It's an opportunity cost evaluation.

Old lore warden, being pretty good at manoeuvres, is suitable for things like tripping, disarming or dirty tricks, all of which can be used to help other members of your party to shine.

New lore warden has lost much of that specialism. It therefore becomes much less attractive to attempt such manoeuvres, and you wind up being just another two-handed fighter whacking the bad guy with your greatsword.

I think that's what Amanda is getting at.

5/5

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Every fighter level I've ever taken in PFS has been with the Lore Warden archetype, so this affects three PCs of mine (one of whom, an arcane archer, will require a major rebuild). Despite that, I still don't support grandfathering the old version. But that's probably because I don't use the CMB/D system, which is not well implemented.

In PFS, one trip or disarm will effectively end half of the combats, due to the major penalties invoked for being prone and outnumbered. The combat maneuver system was not well-designed in 3.0/3.5, and with the extra feats and bonuses since then, has become far too powerful relative to "regular" combat.

5/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I also don't support grandfathering on principle. Every time we grandfather something that is deemed inappropriate, it continues to do its damage until the character retires. That's 33 games they can negatively impact, if it's a particularly bad option. (Or more, when people go and start up several level 1's just to get around the impending ban.)

I expect the campaign staff will/have looked at all sides of this, and are likely to have more than just forum reports to go on. I trust them to make the right decision for the campaign, and I will change my PC's if needed and go on. Season 9 is shaping up to be amazing (as I prep the upcoming special - oh my gosh, can't wait to run this!!), and losing a +4 is not going to impede my fun that much. YMMV.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Trip and disarm are normal bog standard things you can do as a wizard. Not sure why martial characters get short shafted in something that is so much easier to so with one of the better spells in the game.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
In PFS, one trip or disarm will effectively end half of the combats, due to the major penalties invoked for being prone and outnumbered. The combat maneuver system was not well-designed in 3.0/3.5, and with the extra feats and bonuses since then, has become far too powerful relative to "regular" combat.

I agree the system was not well designed. However, I don't think the Pathfinder version is significantly more powerful than the 3.5 version.

In 3.5, it was a straight opposed Strength check, with +4 per size difference. If the defender was Dex-based, they could use that instead. Improved Trip gave a +4 bonus.

In PF, they added BAB in there to make it easier to trip non-martials. They also added Dex AND Strength for the defender, but size bonuses don't scale quite as quickly. Defender now has to take 10, to speed things up. Then they split the attacker's feat-based bonus into two feats (Improved AND Greater Trip), making it harder/more expensive to actually get. Weapon-based bonuses now apply, though.

So, in summary:
1) PF has a bonus for being a full-BAB class.
2) PF gives two stats to the defender, but doesn't give larger creatures as big of a boost (but I haven't compared monster Strength scores between the two systems)
3) Attacker has to spend more feats for the same numerical bonus, but gets to add their weapon's bonus.

Pretty fair tradeoff, as far as I can tell.

Silver Crusade 1/5

The best way to avoid manoeuvres ending encounters "prematurely" would be to write and run more comprehensive tactics, and to include more than one weapon in an antagonist's stat block.

I have seen an NPC magus get disarmed, and the GM say "welp, he only had that rapier." It did not end the encounter though. The magus kept spellcasting, even landing a shocking grasp whilst disarmed and prone. He also got his rapier back, before the fight finally ended.

And if combat manoeuvres are genuinely overpowered in Pathfinder, what the deuce do we do about stuff like create pit ( >> trip); grease (trips in 4 squares, with a single 1st level spell); pilfering hand, telekinesis.... I could go on.

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