What would happen if a modern day earth nation is thrown on Golarion?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:

Why this idea Volkard?

You have seen it in a dream or something like that?

Real life, on several occasions.

Liberty's Edge

Speaking about 1632; what kind of characteristic shoul have a small modern settlement to have succes in Golarion or a path world? (Geothermal or Hydro, Militar base, Factory)

Liberty's Edge

Thank you a lot, Mad Comrade for the suggestions ;)

Liberty's Edge

Quite macabre, Volkard :)


Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:
Speaking about 1632; what kind of characteristic should have a small modern settlement to have success in Golarion or a path world? (Geothermal or Hydro, Military base, Factory)

It's the people that matter, the settlement is their starting gear. ;)

I'd suggest any location that is reasonably self-sufficient at least in the short term. Many towns with a population of 10,000 - 20,000 in real world terms that is not an oversized senior care facility or retirement home has at least some chance to make it. The population size is large enough to provide genetic diversity and provides a decent "pillow" for the inevitable casualties. If they have the misfortune of encountering certain villains or monsters early on, they're in deep trouble.

In broad strokes you want the terrain features of both the 'source town' on Earth and whatever its destination is on Golarion to match up as closely as possible. Transposing Venice to the lethal mountains of Xin-Shalast merely clutters up the latter mountains with fresh corpses. Transposing, to borrow from 1632, a mining town into Varisian foothills is a bit better, although depending on where things get messy in a hurry regardless. Only modern firearms and plenty of ammunition will be making the difference of death-by-monster and survival.

Any community that has a decent-to-strong river or a natural spring is probably a decent candidate. After that any number of other factors are helpful. A small factory, machinist shops, a public school or two or three of some sort and a medical clinic or hopefully a small-to-decent sized hospital will really help. Hobby enthusiasts that are into medieval stuff will of course quickly prove invaluable as will a variety of hand-to-hand combat instructors (providing the town's first brawlers and monks), even a hot air balloon enthusiast can prove quite valuable unless dragons or similar flying monsters are nearby, in which case they're in deep trouble as the likely candidates for first casualties-by-monster. Gardeners and if the town is fairly lucky any variety of farmers and those that raise livestock will be appreciated very quickly. People don't like starvation very much. ;)

You might want to decide on the transposition location you desire on Golarion first, then pick a town - in your case, from Italy - that you are at least passingly familiar with and have been to. If you're really excited to do this, I'd suggest taking your next holiday to said Italian town and get to know the place before transposing it into your campaign.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:

Kitzune: you say Golarion diseases in Italy?

Such as Lycantropia?

I mean Earth diseases suddenly being introduced to Golarion.

Airborne and vector-based earth diseases are much scarier than the diseases we know as adventurers. I understand that it'd just be tedious to randomly throw fortitude saves around peasants, so we don't make mechanics for whatever the equivalent of the flu or smallpox is, plus Remove Disease isn't a very high-level spell... but nobles and adventurers being resistant/immune isn't exactly what you should be looking for in a sudden clash of civilizations.

Plus Italy knows and would probably quickly accept magic, especially if the priests at the Vatican could suddenly use divine magic. Meanwhile, outside of a few AI in Numeria, most of Golarion is completely unaware of bacteria and viruses.


Asmodeus would not be happy. He knows who G*D is and they are enemies.
The vatican has hidden resources, including artifacts, spellbooks, Dipple's alchemicle formulary, ect. 2 important exports are wine and cars. Since some dinosaurs survive, there are pockets of oil and natural gas. Nobles who buy cars will develop oil wells.


KitsuneWarlock wrote:
Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:

Kitzune: you say Golarion diseases in Italy?

Such as Lycantropia?

I mean Earth diseases suddenly being introduced to Golarion.

Airborne and vector-based earth diseases are much scarier than the diseases we know as adventurers. I understand that it'd just be tedious to randomly throw fortitude saves around peasants, so we don't make mechanics for whatever the equivalent of the flu or smallpox is, plus Remove Disease isn't a very high-level spell... but nobles and adventurers being resistant/immune isn't exactly what you should be looking for in a sudden clash of civilizations.

Plus Italy knows and would probably quickly accept magic, especially if the priests at the Vatican could suddenly use divine magic. Meanwhile, outside of a few AI in Numeria, most of Golarion is completely unaware of bacteria and viruses.

This is pretty important, think of all the diseases that probably exist now that would be SUPER virulent to a primitive culture due to antibiotic use. All the plant based medicines and herbal remedies that had some effect due to antibiotic properties in the medicine (think willowbark tea vs aspirin).

Liberty's Edge

You're right, Mad Comrade but I bet a major ammunition storage helps ;)

I imagine best thing will be to take a place u have been and you known very well or you have seen in holidays wandering both by foot and car, integrating your memories with maps researches and inventing the details u need. Or even better a place that u haven't seen yet, to have the special plesure of looking it with different eyes and imaginative fantasy.
Having the choice, better a modern town, such as 1632 or a modern town but with medioeval architecture (casles, walls), maybe a turistic town. Yes in Europe and in Italy we have a lot, little and not so little.

Liberty's Edge

I think avistan is quite used to plagues, virus and pests. They are not like First Nations coming in contact with Europeans. And Italy is not Liberia. There is not Ebola or something like that. I think only disease in Golarion they don't know will maybe be HIV.
The dangerous will be bigger for Italians, with Avistani diseases such as bubonic plague, typhus, lycantropia and so on

Liberty's Edge

* the danger


Italy will rule Golarian.

First they export Automobiles.
Then the auto mechanics will go out...

Liberty's Edge

The point is not automation, but industrial production; Ellenistic Greece ha some kind of automatization, but without industries they remained only expansive toys. So in Golarion.
And to be valuable cars should have possible to be repaired end feed with oil


Many "Avistani" diseases are well-documented here on good ol' Earth. The question is are the Italians able to keep their populace vaccinated? Avistani strains of influenza, measles, smallpox, et al are not necessarily ones the Italians will be immune to - and vice versa the cornucopia of diseases the Italians are loaded down with are not necessarily ones the Avistani populace will have developed an immunity to.

In short, everyone gets to make the Fort saves. ;)

The concepts of assembly line production works pretty well even without larger factories gobbling up electricity.

Once the Italians realize the danger they're in, I suspect a healthy effort into re-familiarization with hand-loading ammunition will come to the fore right quick. Mail armor from modern metals is fairly easy to make in a by-hand assembly line.

Location, location, location. Choose wisely and you have a heck of story/series of campaigns. Choose poorly, lots of people die, probably horribly...


Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:

I think avistan is quite used to plagues, virus and pests. They are not like First Nations coming in contact with Europeans. And Italy is not Liberia. There is not Ebola or something like that. I think only disease in Golarion they don't know will maybe be HIV.

The dangerous will be bigger for Italians, with Avistani diseases such as bubonic plague, typhus, lycantropia and so on

yes but the plagues viruses and pests they are used to have undergone rapid evolution in modern times. Look at MRSA. Thats a bacteria thats pretty virulent and will REQUIRE magic to overcome.

Liberty's Edge

And before exporting something so energetic expansive such as cars Italians have to ripristinate power supplies, by de-carbonizing most of the grid.
Maybe they can export some car. But without oil supplies their values is height but not so much. Ovviously you can sell some old car for curiosity or maybe some electric car with a photovoltaic generator. Some nobles or monarchs would buy that even for a milion g coin each.

Liberty's Edge

Yes, but I think they are used to disease and when in Golarion there is a lowering of population for an epidemic or other reason high number of children occours. I guess they don't make so much children as in historic medioevali Europe 5-8 per woman, cause I can't notice there are many important characters with so much brothers and sisters. But maybe because they are most of upper class. Many for ignorant Avistani peasants is much more similar to historic Europe. And if in Gol they did' have capability to rapidly fill the gap they would alerady be extincted with so mush disasters, invasions, earthquakes, famine, monsters attacks and epidemics


In Pennsylvania there was an oil well long before Henry Ford was born.
It's substance to substance so fabricate should work fine.
Abracadabra, oil to gasoline.


Naphtha (gasoline) was known to the Egyptions. It was mostly considered a dangerous byproduct though.

Liberty's Edge

How would change Avistani market? (Steel costs in industrialized world 1/10.000 than in pre-ind one, and so one) The re-industrialized Italy has enough productive capacity to destroy Golarion industry, such as the glass factory in Sandpoint?

Liberty's Edge

(Italy has an endemic lack of raw materials that will save the primary sector in Avistan, but speaking about the low artisans and the little Avistani industries situation is totally different; ovviously excellent artisans would be safe, but the one that works for mass-products?)

Liberty's Edge

Speaking about Earth it won't be totally useless to make an effort about thinking cultural changes for in-game reasons; it could be possible to make sessions maybe ten years later, for and underwater submarine exploration, and it could be useful to create a realistic setting with cultural changes for American, French or Chinese or Italian refugees that were abroad when the fact happened members of the crew, to make more realistic interaction between them.


Problem is the viability and applicability of mass production from Island Italy to Avistan. What are they going to produce in mass quantities that will be in-demand as an export?

Automobiles won't be. Golarion has wandering monsters capable of obliterating a regular "horseless carriage" in a round or two, or ripping out the occupants and eating them.

Canned goods are a much more likely candidate as an exported good.

Italy's industrialized capabilities have to (a) survive, (b) be manned, (c) probably be de-computerized, and (d) have a target export audience worth the effort. Remember, Island Italy is going from a world of trillions of people and potential customers to maybe a total population, including themselves, of about 150-200 million.

Italian exports are probably going to be familiar concepts to the world: food and wine. Especially early on it won't be a bad idea to keep it secret that they are capable of true mass production. Their metal ships are going to be bad enough as it is.


Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:
Speaking about Earth it won't be totally useless to make an effort about thinking cultural changes for in-game reasons; it could be possible to make sessions maybe ten years later, for and underwater submarine exploration, and it could be useful to create a realistic setting with cultural changes for American, French or Chinese or Italian refugees that were abroad when the fact happened members of the crew, to make more realistic interaction between them.

It's really hard to speculate much about it without knowing what's at the location of transposition. Ideally it's a relatively barren one far from anything of significant interest. Given the size of geography being transpositioned, this would be for the best.

Liberty's Edge

And, oh!, a seemingly banal question (but I think is not). Linguistic barrier:
In Golarion Common Tongue (Taldan) is at any effect Common English?
Because, a) in case it is in Italy there are many people that speaks it. b) in case it isn't there will pass some decades till great part of the population start knowing it.
Ovviously original Paizo pubbl. are in English, but there exists even translations in a lot of languages.
And maybe Paizo itself is translating things into English as major historians translates names and chronicles to be read from their public.
(And, in other continents they have another common tongue, right?)

Another important note. I don't think Gol population is so low. In fact Avistani population is low, probably less than 50 millions (being Taldor and Cheliax the more populous ones -If Oppara has more or less 130.000 inhab and Gol pop is similar to Medioevali one it has to have 1-2% of taladan inhab; due to a complex. urbanization rate of 5%, so Taldor has probably little less than 8-9 million population)
In The Inner Sea and Qdira Manual is said that Qdira has a population similar to Taldor (confirmed by their 100.000 man's army 1% of nation population). They said even that Kelesh Empire has 8 satrapies, every one as big as Qdira. And it's tot said, but I guess the Empire has a core which is not part of any satrapy, but directly controlled by the Empire, and, regardless what they said (assumingly in Qdira Manual is stated Kelesh Emperore receives more than 3.000 concubines only from Qdira); Keleshite Capital must be bigger than Absalom, because the Emperor's court and guards only must have more than 100.000 components, and such number of people requires artisans, and all that money make merchants to come, and even criminals and workers and beggars.
So the Kelesh Empire only must have 80-100 millions inhab.
Vudra is said to be little smaller than Keleshite Empire (80-50 mill)
Than there are other kingdoms and regions in Casmaron (10-20 mil)
The Dragon Kingdoms such as Minkai (more inhab than avistan, so at least 60 mill)
And than Arcadia and Garund (about the first one we don't know many things, but I guess they have little less inhabitants than avistan and Garund, that we know only in it's north part, that has probably half inhab than Avistan and southern part at list the same, so 50+50)
And than underwater and underground kingdoms.
So I think Gol pop is 600-700 millions, more or less as in Earth at I century BC.

(IF ANYONE likes to start a conversation about demography of Gol or even about Keleshite Empire -about that Empire, that is probably the biggest in Golarion around 4700 year and is so influent in Avistani events and incomprensibly there isn't any publication I was able to find- would be very interesting to me)

Liberty's Edge

Maybe less, but for sure not less than 350 millions inhab. even if I'm doing a macroscopic mistake.


The Kelish Empire, going on memory, isn't on the map asides from its westernmost satrapy of Qadira.

Same for Vudra.

Minkai, Hon-La et al are technically on a different continent, as are the Garudan nations (Shackles, Mwangi Expanse, et al).

Still, the known reaches of Golarion also have, unlike Earth, to contend with lots of hostiles beyond the pale of what we're used to.

I don't think Earth's population exceeded 500 million until after the Age of Sail circa the 17th century A.D. or C.E. or whatever they're calling it these days. While Golarion has live, working magic, it's more than balanced out by considerably more hostile fauna and flora.

Underwater nations have vastly more hostile fauna and flora to deal with in general terms than do the landlubbers. I expect that, at best, underwater populations are 5% that of the surface. Same for underground areas, possessed of long-lived races competing against fauna and flora and each other that are probably more difficult than beneath the seas because vast distances are the exception instead of the rule.

Yellowtongue Fever was maybe, what, 6 centuries past, perhaps/probably more recent, again going on memory. Wiped out bucketloads of people on land.

Combined population, thinking on it and factoring in (a) global, and (b) the several populated areas instead of just the surface I'd say you're probably about right at 300-350 million sentients. What the Italians are even (a) aware of, and (b) able to export to is a wholly different kettle of fish. 250 million at best globally, perhaps a third of that number in total lives on the map of Avistan and northern Garund. Of that third a decent proportion are not going to be viable customers. Keeping it simple, I'd estimate their best-case-market 'audience' at about 75 to 80 million. Best case. Probably much, much lower, especially for the first generation or two.

All in all, what Italy has to market to and with is a vastly smaller market than in modern times. Combine with the general lack of instantaneous communications, a much poorer overall marketplace due to the agrarian pre-Industrial marketplace and the likelyhood of short-term anything of consequence on a global scale seems minute.

Now, first step's first. What are the most valuable commodities to pre-Industrial societies? Salt and spices. Combine with canned goods and unique wine shipped by an utterly lethal Merchant Marine and they have an excellent trade option once they decide to emerge from their oversized island out in the deep blue sea.

Shadow Lodge

Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote:

A portion of Azlanti Ocean appears on Earth. Italy appears in Golarion.

Filled with Aboleth, Gillmen, Kraken, other weird things.

Worse yet, how long until James Jacobs is drafted to go to D.C. to brief President Trump on the "Gillman situation".


Eh, I dunno about automobiles not being exported, bear in mind for all the wild areas Avistan also has large mostly stable nations. Something that can truck along at 60mph is going to be too fast for most monsters to do anything about anywhere with a solid road system.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Eh, I dunno about automobiles not being exported, bear in mind for all the wild areas Avistan also has large mostly stable nations. Something that can truck along at 60mph is going to be too fast for most monsters to do anything about anywhere with a solid road system.

That presumes the accompanying infrastructure comes along with it. I suggest looking up the early automobiles and how they (didn't) fare so well until the widespread implementation of graveled and paved roads. Graveled roads and the equivalent are not a thing even in many of the largest 'cities', most of whom are utterly dwarfed by the transposed Italian metropolises.

We're talking about exporting industrialization which has to accompany widespread literacy to really take root. Not something that is necessary on Golarion. Nor will it be fast.

At best you're looking at a Model-T (a very nice one, perhaps) Ford. Multi-purpose since one of its many selling points back in the catalog days was that you can take the tires off and use it as an impromptu pump or generator. You also have to have the infrastructure to support it. Quite a trick to achieve when the only supplier has several hundred miles of ocean to ship everything across. And it has to not spook the superstitious masses. Or the archmages et al that simply fireball the "noisome wheeled golem".

Liberty's Edge

Yes, of course, but between a car and a primitive bottle of wine there is a wide range of equipments our civilization could provide (and so Italy exports). Bear also in mind that here on earth Italy is famous as a luxury artigianale producer or an Hi-tech height quality producer but in Golarion it will be is industrial mass production capability that will make the difference, because, in therms of H-quality handicrafts there will be a little number of things in which they could beat elf, dwarf or even a good artisan in Magnimar or Korvosa.
What is going to make the difference for me is mass products or products that requires little a energy and money for us to be produced and a lot for Golarion producers, or even that in Golarion does not exists. Just think to a bicycle, even with disasterd grid and transport, to build and to ship a mountain bike won't cost more than 1.000€, which are (at the current rate) 2 gp. Bicycles are very useful, fast little less than a horse and much more skilled in narrow streets in a city. And you don't need to feed them. I'll guess you would be glad to pay 100 Gp for one of them. I won't be surprised if in ten year they are able to sell 10 millions of that (3,5% of the Golarion inhabitants). That's 1 BILLION golden coins!!! (Or at list half billion to consider trading costs). Than many other things: steel is from 1.000 to 10.000 times more expensive in Golarion and only the dwarves knows how to make it in great quantities (think to Janderoff walls), but I guess they keep low the supplies to make the price market grow, so, even if Italy won't probably be able to sell modern warship to Golarion nations, their scissors, knives and forks, pots and so on would overflow the market, refined Taldan will be enthusiasts of shampoos and body lotions, that I'm sure they already have, but probably costs from dozen to thousands Gp for litre and that Italians can produce for just 5-10€ (1/2 silver coin) and sell for 10 golden ones, and probably they'll sell a milion of them just in Taldor, just for one year, or think to glasses, or sunglasses, textile or carbonium items. Etc etc...
And, as I intended to say, (okey, I admit maybe 600 millions is an exaggerate population for Golarion and 350-400 a much more feasible number) Italy it's used to export in a world with a 7 billion people market. So their productivity will may cause some troubles for a 350-400 millions people world economy.

No one has ideas about linguistic barriers/ Golarion common tongue nature?

Ya, Kerney, I was thinking about documentaries, adventures such as in James Cameron Abyss, and with the taste of mystery and wonder (while people in Italy is trying to survive many in the earth will consider it the greatest event in all history of mankind and there will be a lot of enthusiasm mixed with sorrow and a rush -both governative both private- to acquire information, relics, and so on. To produce documentaries and to have manufacturers to expose in the British or at the Smithsonian or to be examinated by secretive equipes.
And it will fill the mouth of policitian of all nation for many decades I guess. Expecially when they discover the Gilman as an alien sentient specie. (Or even shauguin and lochanath) Maybe causing a new space-race kind of competition to explore Azlanti pocket and establish underwater colonies (decades later)

Liberty's Edge

Yes, of course, Mad Comrade, it would be a good idea, if they find themselves they way to come out the initial difficoulties and managed to remain out of Avistani view for a long term, but, instead, if they decided to start immediately explorations and than decided to try avoiding famine and energy collapse they must start importing food from Avistan or maybe Arcadia (if we put eastern edge of Italy at 1.000-1.5000 km away from Avistan coast, Arcadian one is at just 1.500-2.000 Km west, so they may decide to start with Arcadia) and, before of all OIL OIL OIL (and possibly methane, given the fact that Italian warms homes in the winter and produces electricity mostly with imported methane) they must start selling something if they decides to start suddenly a trade as a mean of solution of the crisis (unless they prefer spending golden bars of the Central Italian Bank).
So it depends by the decisions taken. So, if you had to governate Italy in a smart way in that dramatic situation what will you choose?

Liberty's Edge

Try being more secretive possible and first waiting to solve the interior problems or to start immediate trade with the hope to find fossil fuels within a year and so avoiding the crisis (if they manage to, instead of 10-20 million deaths they can have just 1-3)?


Hi-tech is one of the first things that goes away, and it probably goes away fast. Most of the materials required to produce it are quite difficult to find, although I would caveat that by saying "moar research required".

Nine Days to Anarchy.

How well-stocked are the grocery markets on a day-to-day basis?
How much in the way of pharmaceuticals are available in-country?
How much food is currently stockpiled throughout the country as opposed to depending on a steady flow of imported food and drugs to keep daily needs afloat?
How much of the various fuels are in depots in-country?

Immediate needs are critical. If there's only a week's worth of the 'elderly care' pharmaceuticals typically in-country when the transition hits, everyone depending on those drugs dies, period, end of story, say hi to the Gods for us. If there's only two weeks' worth of food in-country for 60 million people, that's nowhere near enough to ration out over the course of an entire year. If there's about six months' stored foodstuffs in-country with a fresh set of crops in the ground when the transposition hits, that changes dramatically - but is it enough to feed everyone?

People are going to die. A lot of them, how many depends on timing.

Everything else is secondary. Without food and fresh water, nothing else really matters unless the entire population spontaneously became followers of Irori with access to create water and abstemiousness, which does not strike me as a likely occurrence...

More on this later, probably in a day or two.


The Mad Comrade wrote:

Problem is the viability and applicability of mass production from Island Italy to Avistan. What are they going to produce in mass quantities that will be in-demand as an export?

Automobiles won't be. Golarion has wandering monsters capable of obliterating a regular "horseless carriage" in a round or two, or ripping out the occupants and eating them.

Canned goods are a much more likely candidate as an exported good.

Italy's industrialized capabilities have to (a) survive, (b) be manned, (c) probably be de-computerized, and (d) have a target export audience worth the effort. Remember, Island Italy is going from a world of trillions of people and potential customers to maybe a total population, including themselves, of about 150-200 million.

Italian exports are probably going to be familiar concepts to the world: food and wine. Especially early on it won't be a bad idea to keep it secret that they are capable of true mass production. Their metal ships are going to be bad enough as it is.

I guess you have never been run down by a GM Fiat. I mean gamemaster, not General Motors. :)

Liberty's Edge

Many will die, but as I said (stocks of oil methane and coil could provide full functionality for an year if you stop just the more energivore industries such as funderies or shipyards and stop private cars), if they manage to keep industries and transports (by finding an easy to extract oil and methane source) working they could be easily built new agricultural machines to make the production grow. Than consider a kilogram of meat requires ten of corn to be grown. So if you reduce animal breeding (in industrialized country we consume even too much meat) you may be able to make people not starving. The point is keeping transports and production and communication and armies active and full functional. So OIL OIL OIL and Electricity.


Here you go.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/italys-top-10-exports/

Now lets talk about Cloud Giants creating actual cloud data storage.:)


Goth Guru wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:

Problem is the viability and applicability of mass production from Island Italy to Avistan. What are they going to produce in mass quantities that will be in-demand as an export?

Automobiles won't be. Golarion has wandering monsters capable of obliterating a regular "horseless carriage" in a round or two, or ripping out the occupants and eating them.

Canned goods are a much more likely candidate as an exported good.

Italy's industrialized capabilities have to (a) survive, (b) be manned, (c) probably be de-computerized, and (d) have a target export audience worth the effort. Remember, Island Italy is going from a world of trillions of people and potential customers to maybe a total population, including themselves, of about 150-200 million.

Italian exports are probably going to be familiar concepts to the world: food and wine. Especially early on it won't be a bad idea to keep it secret that they are capable of true mass production. Their metal ships are going to be bad enough as it is.

I guess you have never been run down by a GM Fiat. I mean gamemaster, not General Motors. :)

Fell out of a moving car in the winter narrowly avoiding getting turned into roadkill by a school bus once if that counts. ;)


Goth Guru wrote:

Here you go.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/italys-top-10-exports/

Now lets talk about Cloud Giants creating actual cloud data storage.:)

Nice!

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