When Is Sacred Weapon Applied to An Attack's Damage


Rules Questions

Paizo Employee Design Manager

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

When is sacred weapon applied to an attack's damage?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

To expand on the question:
I believe Hero Labs is calculating the warpriest's Sacred Weapon Damage incorrectly in some instances, but Hero Labs disagrees and will not correct the issue without a developer FAQ or clarification.
Relevant rules text-

"Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level and not the weapon type. The damage for Medium warpriests is given on the table above; see the table below for Small and Large warpriests. The warpriest can decide to use the weapon's base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—this decision must be declared before the attack roll is made. (If the weapon's base damage exceeds the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn't apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that deal only energy damage."

Relevant points-

1) Sacred Weapon damage is declared at the time of the attack.

2) Sacred Weapon damage is based on the warpriest's size.

The specific instance of the issue is this-

A 20th level Medium-sized Warpriest is wielding a Large-sized bastard sword. Normally this weapon deals 2d8 base damage, so for a Medium-sized warpriest there should be no change in his damage dice. When an enlarge person spell is applied to the warpriest, his bastard sword increases to Huge and deals 3d8 base damage, which should be the same as the Sacred Weapon damage for a Large-sized Warpriest so Sacred Weapon should once again not come into play.

Instead, what Hero Labs is doing is applying the Large-sized Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage first, and then applying the size increase a second time to the bastard sword so that the Sacred Weapon damage is being calculated as 1 size larger than it should be at 4d8. Since Sacred Weapon damage does not come into play until an attack is declared, and the warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage doesn't increase to 3d8 until after he becomes Large, this seems like a clear error, but Hero Labs disagrees and will not correct the issue without official clarification.


What instances? because sacred damage should apply each time the attack hits unless:
a) the warpriest chooses not to use it or
b) the base weapon damage is greater or
c) it's an alchemical item, bomb or other energy damaging attack.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

dragonhunterq wrote:

What instances? because sacred damage should apply each time the attack hits unless:

a) the warpriest chooses not to use it or
b) the base weapon damage is greater or
c) it's an alchemical item, bomb or other energy damaging attack.

Expanded on the issue above. The particular instance is this-

A Medium-sized Warpriest is wielding a Large-sized bastard sword as a two-handed weapon. The warpriest is affected by enlarge person. What is his damage when using Sacred Weapon at this point? I say it's 3d8; that's the Sacred Weapon damage for a Large-sized warpriest, and it's the base damage of a Huge bastard sword. When Sacred Weapon "checks" the base damage at the time an attack is declared, the base damage of the now-Huge bastard sword is the same as the warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage, so there should be no further increase in damage, but what is happening at Hero Labs is they are calculating the Large-sized warpriest's Sacred Damage in first, and then applying a further size increase to the bastard sword so that the warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage is showing as 4d8 instead. This appears to be being applied incorrectly, since the warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage doesn't increase to 3d8 until he's already Large sized, at which point his base damage is also 3d8.

Further question-
Do enchantments like impact apply to Sacred Weapon? Relevant wording on impact- "An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger."

Since Warpriest Sacred Weapon damage is based on the Warpriest's size, not the weapon's, would impact further increase the damage at all? Or in the example above where we have a Large-sized Warpriest with a Huge bastard sword (base damage 3d8), would impact apply first, raising the base weapon damage to 4d8 and thus making it clearly higher than the warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage so that Sacred Weapon does not apply, or would it apply to the Sacred Weapon damage increasing it by 1 step?

I believe the correct order of operations based on the rules should be this-
1) 20th level Medium Warpriest with Large bastard sword deals 2d8 base damage; Sacred Weapon damage is the same, so there is no further damage increase.
2) The Warpriest is enlarged, and his bastard sword becomes Huge; Large Warpriest Sacred Weapon damage is 3d8, Huge bastard sword damage is also 3d8, Sacred Weapon does not apply.
3) Impact enchantment treats weapon as 1 size category large, so final base damage for the bastard sword is 4d8.

What Hero Labs is doing appears to be this-
1) 20th level Medium Warpriest wielding a Large bastard sword is enlarged; the Warpriest applies his Sacred Weapon damage as a Large Warpriest (3d8) first, and the weapon is then further enlarged, becoming 4d8.
2) Impact enhancement is applied to the bastard sword after Sacred Weapon and the additional size increase, making the final damage 6d8.


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Herolab should just ask the dev's directly like they do and can.
But I view that as worded the size of the weapon and also impact shouldn't alter the damage of the sacred weapon. Those are both properties of the weapon's damage die and not the wielder's size.

Liberty's Edge

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I remember this coming up with the Warpriest early on in the playtest. The combo was to enchant a shield with Bashing, and you'd have a Sacred Weapon that dealt damage two steps higher.

The current wording prevents that (and it doesn't surprise me that HeroLab is wrong, again). Now you either choose the Weapon's damage, or your Warpriest's damage.

Either or.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Chess Pwn wrote:

Herolab should just ask the dev's directly like they do and can.

But I view that as worded the size of the weapon and also impact shouldn't alter the damage of the sacred weapon. Those are both properties of the weapon's damage die and not the wielder's size.

Despite including the same rules references I included above, this was the response I got when I e-mailed them-

"As far as I understand it the base weapon damage/sacred weapon damage comparison is carried out first, before any further bumps from item size or magical effects, so this seems to be working correctly in my tests. Unless you can point me at any official ruling which establishes a different order of operations I am don't think this is a bug. Hope that clarifies things!

--
Aaron Beal
Lone Wolf Development Support - support@wolflair.com
http://www.wolflair.com"

Thus the thread here.


That's completely bogus and no where in the rules.

how big is the WP? That is literally the only thing it says that alters size. You could have a tiny greatsword or a huge dagger and they'd both do the same sacred weapon damage since YOU'RE not changing size and it doesn't care about what type of weapon you're using.

And impact treats the weapon as one size larger, and since weapon properties don't factor into the damage of the warpriest having the bastard sword's base damage go up with impact would do nothing for the sacred weapon damage.

Like I really fail to see how he reads the rules and gets his understanding. Especially the size is clearly wrong, a large greatsword does 3d6. Why would a medium WP do more damage? The base weapon damage is 3d6. If the damage was based on the weapon's size then having a larger weapon would matter.

But seriously herolab. You have the power to just email the Dev's and get your FAQ questions answered whenever you want it seems, just do that.


Maybe they have access to some errata or FAQ that we don't. It wouldn't be the first time.


Melkiador wrote:
Maybe they have access to some errata or FAQ that we don't. It wouldn't be the first time.

I feel if they had that they'd reference it and not just say, "As far as I understand". Especially because they've shared emails before from the devs when answering questions.

One is being clear that you have a reason for your stance, the other is just what you think.

Grand Lodge

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I've gotten similar responses from the Herolab Devs before. They don't all seem to have a solid grasp on the rules.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Maybe they have access to some errata or FAQ that we don't. It wouldn't be the first time.

I feel if they had that they'd reference it and not just say, "As far as I understand". Especially because they've shared emails before from the devs when answering questions.

One is being clear that you have a reason for your stance, the other is just what you think.

I also wouldn't think they'd ask me to find an official clarification if they already had one.


Ssalarn wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Maybe they have access to some errata or FAQ that we don't. It wouldn't be the first time.

I feel if they had that they'd reference it and not just say, "As far as I understand". Especially because they've shared emails before from the devs when answering questions.

One is being clear that you have a reason for your stance, the other is just what you think.

I also wouldn't think they'd ask me to find an official clarification if they already had one.

What I find rather dumb is that the apparently have access to ask question to the Devs and get answers, but rather than do that they turn the burden to us to get the official answer that is much harder for us to get.

Why when questioned on a pretty clearly divided issue (or one where most think you're wrong) don't they just ask the Dev's? Like then they can answer with the actually correct answer with support, or they can respond saying the Dev's can't answer quickly and it'll need to be FAQ'd so for now we're not changing.


Impact affects the weapons damage. you use either the weapon damage or the sacred weapon damage.

Neither impact or the many similar abilities should affect sacred weapon damage at all.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Maybe they have access to some errata or FAQ that we don't. It wouldn't be the first time.

I feel if they had that they'd reference it and not just say, "As far as I understand". Especially because they've shared emails before from the devs when answering questions.

One is being clear that you have a reason for your stance, the other is just what you think.

Maybe they're under an NDA.

Grand Lodge

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Nowhere does it say that Sacred Weapon alters the weapon's base damage...


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, pretty sure you're right on this.

A large-sized creature wielding a huge-sized bastard sword deals 3d8 dmg.
A large-sized warpriest deals 3d8 dmg with his sacred weapon.
A large-sized warpriest deals 3d8 dmg with his huge-sized Bastard sword sacred weapon, because sacred weapon ignores the size of the weapon and only cares about the size of the warpriest.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

claudekennilol wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Sacred Weapon alters the weapon's base damage...

That was my thought as well. You use Sacred Weapon or the weapon's base damage, and Sacred Weapon does a fixed amount regardless of the weapon type. The only thing it checks to is the size of the warpriest.


That is how I understand it as well. I don't think the OP's wording is detailed enough to encourage a FAQ response, though.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

blahpers wrote:
That is how I understand it as well. I don't think the OP's wording is detailed enough to encourage a FAQ response, though.

The FAQ guidelines are specifically supposed to be simple questions and the devs have stated that overly complex questions are less likely to be FAQ'd. That's why the OP is a simple question elaborated upon in a follow-up post.

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