People would argue that it's not D&D*,but I'm not sure that eliminating stats wouldn't be the easiest way to restore balance.
Each class gets 2 stat modifiers. End of story.
Heck they could pick the modifiers with no ill effect.
The modifiers could scale with level.
Not long ago someone on this Board, may have been Kyrt, said that he makes an obvious "Disconnect" between his stats and how he roleplays. He doesn't dump CHA, then play a douche, he doesn't dump WIS and then touch obviously hot things. Stats are mechanical and have nothing to do with Roleplaying. This goes against basically 30 years of gaming for me, but it does make a certain elegant sense in the era of Point Buy.
*An old time Roleplayer, in his 60s by now, once told me that Min/Maxing basically is D&D. With time I've come to accept that basic truth.
Legend sort of beat you to it on the 2 stat modifiers thing with each chassis (or class if you prefer) having a Key Offense Modifier and a Key Defense Modifier. High numbers in other stats still helps on other things though, but 2 stats control most of numbers.
A lot of older players push forward rolling instead of point buy, even if you suffer horribly or have an insanely awesome character. Its organic in that you have your rolls to work with and you can't change and min-max if I had to guess, so you work with your rolls to see what you make. The downside of course is that the guy with nothing over 12 and the guy with straight 18's are for some reason expected to play side by side and planned around, which isn't really the best design unless your scores don't matter. Then again the same person said SAD/MAD are the nature of the best and to be honest that may not be the type of thinking that says "Wow, this could be better!" or "Wow, this works great" and instead is "This is how it is" and ends without putting more thought.
I wouldn't say without putting more thought into it. You can do it differently and I do, when you decide to break away from point buy there are TONS of options. I recently ran an all goblin campaign, where I had the PCs pick one stat as a 20, one stat as a 6, and the other 4 stats they rolled in order at 3d4+4. Cuz ya know, they're JUST GOBLINS! Noone complained, everyone got to have 1 really good score and 1 really bad score, and they seemed to enjoy playing somewhat sub-par characters that fit the sub-par goblin life.
Low scores / high scores were par for the course back in 2nd edition. At a certain point as a player you look past what everyone rolled for their stats, and more on how everyone is playing the game and handling their character. If one character keeps getting crushed in combat, regardless of the reason, the rest of the party usually will take actions during combat to mitigate that. As other people have stated, a weak class in the hands of a competent player can be more effective than a "strong" class in the hands of an unskilled player. Attributes work the same way; a skilled player is less likely to be handicapped by poor stats than an unskilled player is to be empowered by terrific stats.
I also said I personally hate point-buy. I think starting ability scores = hardwired into the game is worse in Pathfinder/3.x than it is in, say, World of Darkness, d6 Star Wars or Burning Wheel. In Pathfinder, if you have a 12 Wis, you just can't cast 3rd level cleric spells. In other game systems, you have a harder time performing tasks tied to a poor attribute, but you can still use the skill and improve it independently of increasing the associated attribute. In 3.x/Pathfinder, if you want a higher Fort Save, you have 4 options post-character-creation: Increase your Con, take Greater Fortitude, get a Cloak of Resistance, or level up and get the class Fort save increase. So your options are to buy a con-boosting item, buy a save-boosting item, buy an ioun stone and put it in a wayfinder (i think you can get Gr. Fortitude that way that way?), or level up (which in-character you have no control over when/how that happens). 3 of those are money = character sheet power, and the monotony of needing to buy magic gear to better survive has been discussed in other threads.
edit: Also, I'd rather enjoy the game and play it than have to house rule it ad nauseum to balance classes/MAD/SAD, which in the end turns it more and more into 4th ed. (yuck)
When I say 2 stat mods, I mean the current modifiers.
You could be smart, +skills
Strong, + to hit and DMG
Agile, +to AC and reflex
Hardy,+ to Fort and HP
these 2 are weak when uncoupled from spellcasting.
wise, + to Will
Charming, + to socials and influence
Start at a plus 2, scale it up every 3 levels by 1 or 2.
Or pick a third choice at the base bonus.
That seems weak at first glance , but it applies to EVERYTHING.
Also, I'd rather enjoy the game and play it than have to house rule it ad nauseum to balance classes/MAD/SAD, which in the end turns it more and more into 4th ed. (yuck)
You know some people liked fourth, and I don't think someone with that sort of thought is really healthy in this sort of discussion. Someone who doesn't care about balance probably shouldn't be in a discussion about balance.
*can't seem to find the post to quote*
you're all like "wizards need dex and con"
and I'm all like "spells b*tch"
no seriously, mage armor, mirror image, just off the top of my head. oh, fireball coming your way? I'm sorry dispel magic.
oh and let's not forget, he's like 50 ft back.
now, it is fun to make a melee caster without using magus, but to say wizards are MAD is slightly ignoring their main feature, spells.
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I wonder if one way to handle this is to make casters more MAD. Maybe something like having a Wizard's bonus spells tied to Intelligence and his DCs tied to Charisma.
Just throwing it out there.
36 Point buy against 20 seems quite a lot >_____<This is something that I do. I offer a stat array, 16/16/15/14/13/11 or 20 point buy. Obiously you still add racials. Now, what this does is penalize players who absolutely demand to start with 20 in a single stat compared to those who will take the generous stat array I've given. It helps MAD characters be playable, without raising the over-all power level. In fact, by taking the array it actually lowers the power level as players are starting with scores of 18 instead of 20 in their relevant stats.It seems that not using point buys will help equalize things as well. Starting all PCs with the same scores (but arranged in whatever fashion they like) would be, in effect, a mechanic that makes SAD classes more MAD.
That's the point. To discourage you from picking 20 point buy and buying a 18 in a starting stat because you're sacrificing far more by comparison. Choosing well rounded stats is what I want my players to do.
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There are a lot of threads on caster vs. martial disparity. I'd like to discuss one aspect of class balance: SAD vs. MAD. Full casters are single attribute dependent, they do damage, prevent damage, buff, travel, summon, scry, and do pretty much everything through spells. A wizard or druid in a point buy game can max Int or Wis, adding a few points to Dex and Con, and get by with penalties in Str and Cha. A multiple attribute dependent class like the ranger needs bonuses in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis and benefits from bonuses in Int and Cha. It is tougher to max out one stat and a penalty in any stat hurts more. The ranger needs Str and Dex (if ranged) for dealing damage, Dex for AC and initiative, Con for hit points, Wis for spells, Int for skills, and Cha for wild empathy.
I used wizard, druid, and ranger as examples because they are all strong classes. They have different strengths and weaknesses, and I'm arguing it is more difficult from a build and point buy perspective to make use of a ranger's strengths. I'm not trying to create another caster vs. martial thread, but rather to discuss SAD vs. MAD.
What if there were a mechanic to make MAD class more SAD? What if a martial could use their highest stat bonus for damage, to hit, AC, initiative, reflex, and fort saves? How would that change the game?
1. Casters are not SAD. Even a wizard needs at least two stats (int & con).
2. Dumping other stats hurts even a wizard (unless he want very poor ref & fort saves and never attempts social interaction).
3. MAD offers some very definite advantages. Monks, for example, can gain exceptional AC at high level by leveraging bonuses from both dex and wis. Paladin's gain a similar benefit with saving throws by adding an extra stat into the calculations.
This is something that I do. I offer a stat array, 16/16/15/14/13/11 or 20 point buy. Obiously you still add racials. Now, what this does is penalize players who absolutely demand to start with 20 in a single stat compared to those who will take the generous stat array I've given. It helps MAD characters be playable, without raising the over-all power level. In fact, by taking the array it actually lowers the power level as players are starting with scores of 18 instead of 20 in their relevant stats.
10/10 Would have as DM
Seriously tho, that is a array that could make any obscure build happy... ( I see you back there you monk bastard! )
*can't seem to find the post to quote*
you're all like "wizards need dex and con"
and I'm all like "spells b*tch"
no seriously, mage armor, mirror image, just off the top of my head.
So you don't need Con or Dex, let's assume you put 10 in each. You have dispel magic so you're level 5. Your mage armor lasts 5 hours for a healthy 14 AC. Your plan is to open combat with mirror image in case you get attacked, and spend the rest of the combat readying an action to counterspell?
What happens 10 minutes later when there's another combat and your first mirror image spell ends? You keep a second one memorized, or do you pray that Int 10 monsters don't understand that unarmored combatants are easier to hit than metal-suited guys? Do you also ready ready more actions to counterspell in case that fireball finally shows up?
oh and let's not forget, he's like 50 ft back.
Unless you plan to spend your entire adventuring career 50 ft behind the party, occasionally you will be much closer to the bad guys when combat starts and they win initiative.
I guess I think of it a bit differently from most posters here. I tend to view the stats as of different value, and it has to do with MAD/SAD issues. To me it comes down to what is the cost of a 7. A 7 strength and a 7 charisma are pretty damn cheap. Don't want to use strength, simply don't. Between Dervish Dance, crossbows and spells you really don't need strength for anything past level 2 when you can afford a Handy Haversack. If you don't want to use charisma for anything you don't have to. All social skills can be made to work off intelligence and wisdom, and this attribute is completely avoidable. By far the most common values here are 7 and 20. Dexterity and intelligence form the middle tier of stats because it is expensive to dump them but not crippling. There are many ways to sub charisma for dexterity and a few to sub wisdom for dexterity, though they all have opportunity costs. Reflex is the weakest save and not all characters rely on going first or light armor, so it can also be dumped and the penalties suffered. Intelligence controls skill points and that is the only reason it goes above 7 on most characters. Wisdom is the second hardest to dump because it controls will saves and perception checks. Constitution is the hardest to dump as it controls HP and fort saves and a low value in both of those things will get you killed. There is also no way to avoid using con for what you use it for at all.
So basically in order to be considered SAD you need only one high stat and only 3 reasonable ones. This is why intelligence and wisdom casters are stronger than charisma ones usually. This is why Dervish Dance is like a plague on martials. The need to be able to dump strength like casters do. In my mind SAD is a synonym for able to dump both strength and charisma.
1. Casters are not SAD. Even a wizard needs at least two stats (int & con).
2. Dumping other stats hurts even a wizard (unless he want very poor ref & fort saves and never attempts social interaction).
Some stats are useful regardless of your class, usually con/dex being choice, and some are pretty much total dumps unless your class demands it, such as charisma. Wizard? The guy really wants good int because its pretty much all his class features demand, and everything else is icing. Spells can actually make up for things you lack, doing anything from mind control, to flying over an obstacle, to summoning someone else to do it for you, to bolstering to your defenses n a way mundane characters just can't. A wizard with 18 int and 7 in every other stat will probably function better than a fighter or monk with an 18 and 7's in the rest.
No class is actually SAD(yet anyway), but some classes are more SAD than others. If I remember right, paladin 2/Oracle x is the closest to a true SAD class who actually can get charisma to everything.
3. MAD offers some very definite advantages. Monks, for example, can gain exceptional AC at high level by leveraging bonuses from both dex and wis. Paladin's gain a similar benefit with saving throws by adding an extra stat into the calculations.
Its a trap!
No, but really, that's not MAD being helpful, its another stat being useful and helping to cover for a loss. In this case its a monks lack of armor and a paladin's charisma is used for a good portion of the class(namely, spellcasting, smite, and grace, all of which may be the reason your playing a paladin and are pretty amazing class features). It isn't really a case of "Wow, I'm glad I need so many stats!" as "Oh hey, that one stat is pretty helpful!" and in the monk's case it works against them because they really need good to hit, damage, they need an okay wisdom at least to make up for the lack of armor, dexterity so they still have AC ontop of that. They don't just won't okay stats to function, they want great. As opposed to the paladin, who's still a full BAB guy who can reach full BAB+ in a pinch. Monk's AC also can scale from being crap to overwhelming because you can go from not have great dex/wis(14+ each), to amazing because you have fantastic(20+ each now that you have a +6 belt) wis/dex + mage armor + 5 monk bonus.
The issue with stats and ability dependency is that the stats are not equal.
Example.
CHA is less valuable than INT.Cha dumps are offset by skill points.
To reign in SAD advantages would require the elimination of SAD in the basic design.
I haven't tried this but here is an option I've tossed around in my head.
Full progression spellcasters have a massive advantage in that one stat basically is all they need. That stat gives the spell access by level, adjusts the spell's DC, and provides bonus spells per day.
Break that up.
Spell level access could be determined by INT (so an int of 13 would allow access to lvl3 spells)
Bonus spells per day could be determined by WIS
Spell DC bonus comes from CHA.
Single stat dependency could just go away for casters. As an added benefit the current crop of Idiot Savant builds with a godlike Intelligence but the common sense of a house fly and the personality of a toaster oven would wander off.
Mental stats are far more valuable than physical stats after a certain point, clvl 6, so adjusting the values in point buy is of middling effect since it will actually penalize the MAD builds more than the SAD builds.
A score of 20 in STR only adds a +5 bonus to hit and DMG to a level 10 character. It also ups carrying capacity but at this point theres an extradimensional space which makes this useless.
A score of 20 in WIS provides a +5 will save bonus, a handful of bonus spells, acess to all spells available to the level and a +5 spell DC. To the caster at 10th level.
If point buy is retained, your game gets skewed the higher level it goes.
Static stat arrays offset this somewhat bit they don't address the real power advantage of mental stats at higher levels.
Old school rolling methods, just narrow character choice early on. They also create a power disparity, but this method spreads it around. If you roll like crap but pull a 17, it's a wizard; if you roll amazingly well, you skip the SAD builds and play that hard to...
Someone has never played a Loradin...
2 Paladin/ X Oracle (lunar)... you pretty much use Cha for everything...
...The issue with stats and ability dependency is that the stats are not equal.
Example.
CHA is less valuable than INT.Cha dumps are offset by skill points.
To reign in SAD advantages would require the elimination of SAD in the basic design.
I haven't tried this but here is an option I've tossed around in my head.
Full progression spellcasters have a massive advantage in that one stat basically is all they need. That stat gives the spell access by level, adjusts the spell's DC, and provides bonus spells per day.
Break that up.
Spell level access could be determined by INT (so an int of 13 would allow access to lvl3 spells)
Bonus spells per day could be determined by WIS
Spell DC bonus comes from CHA.
Single stat dependency could just go away for casters. As an added benefit the current crop of Idiot Savant builds with a godlike Intelligence but the common sense of a house fly and the personality of a toaster oven would wander off.
Mental stats are far more valuable than physical stats after a certain point, clvl 6, so adjusting the values in point buy is of middling effect since it will actually penalize the MAD builds more than the SAD builds.
A score of 20 in STR only adds a +5 bonus to hit and DMG to a level 10 character. It also ups carrying capacity but at this point theres an extradimensional space which makes this useless.
A score of 20 in WIS provides a +5 will save bonus, a handful of bonus spells, acess to all spells available to the level and a +5 spell DC. To the caster at 10th level.
If point buy is retained, your game gets skewed the higher level it goes.
Static stat arrays offset this somewhat bit they don't address the real power advantage of mental stats at higher levels.
Old school rolling methods, just narrow character choice early on. They also create a power disparity, but this method spreads it around. If you roll like crap but pull a 17, it's a wizard; if you roll amazingly well, you skip the SAD
I prefer just straight Lunar Oracle myself, since you can get the saves from Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of the Champion and the Smites from Bestow Grace of the Champion.
...The issue with stats and ability dependency is that the stats are not equal.
Example.
CHA is less valuable than INT.Cha dumps are offset by skill points.
To reign in SAD advantages would require the elimination of SAD in the basic design.
I haven't tried this but here is an option I've tossed around in my head.
Full progression spellcasters have a massive advantage in that one stat basically is all they need. That stat gives the spell access by level, adjusts the spell's DC, and provides bonus spells per day.
Break that up.
Spell level access could be determined by INT (so an int of 13 would allow access to lvl3 spells)
Bonus spells per day could be determined by WIS
Spell DC bonus comes from CHA.
Single stat dependency could just go away for casters. As an added benefit the current crop of Idiot Savant builds with a godlike Intelligence but the common sense of a house fly and the personality of a toaster oven would wander off.
Mental stats are far more valuable than physical stats after a certain point, clvl 6, so adjusting the values in point buy is of middling effect since it will actually penalize the MAD builds more than the SAD builds.
A score of 20 in STR only adds a +5 bonus to hit and DMG to a level 10 character. It also ups carrying capacity but at this point theres an extradimensional space which makes this useless.
A score of 20 in WIS provides a +5 will save bonus, a handful of bonus spells, acess to all spells available to the level and a +5 spell DC. To the caster at 10th level.
If point buy is retained, your game gets skewed the higher level it goes.
Static stat arrays offset this somewhat bit they don't address the real power advantage of mental stats at higher levels.
Old school rolling methods, just narrow character choice early on. They also create a power disparity, but this method spreads it around. If you roll like crap but pull a 17, it's a wizard; if you roll
True, but the Paladin dip does give you the advantage of always on save and saves you a spell, which is useful if you feel like also abusing the Paragon Surge combo.