Can we talk about how the Cavalier is just better than the Fighter?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Cavalier is a nice dip for fighter.

(Thanks cavalier. Now get out.)


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Ventnor wrote:


-Armored Masters Handbook
-Weapon Masters Handbook
-

That's not even mentioning that the best fighter fix, the lore warden archetype, got nerfed. Apparently, being good at more than 1 combat maneuver is overpowered or something.

Actually that archetype is now obsolete, even before "nerfing". It gives up armor training and armor mastery, and with the Armored Masters Handbook and Weapon Masters Handbook

-any archetype that gives up armor training or weapon training is obsolete.

That archetype also gave up medium armor, heavy armor, and shields, and bravery (which got a lot better now, it now can be a standard will save with Armed Bravery).

Adaptable Training makes up for skills.

Armored Juggernaut give DR like a Barbarian.

and more.

Those two books "unchain" the fighter and more.


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Rheydon, you realize tha it's rediculous to ask us to make a full build for our point every time when you're not making a full build for your point every time, right?

I'm not moving the goal post. I posted one 1-20 cavalier build and am comparing to that (though I try to note aspects that are super build specific beyond basic choices). My points either stem from that build, or the same build minus features.

So no, I do have a full build and expect the same now. You can either post a build, showing how your fighter actually does what you are claiming, or you can keep making unfounded statements.


MageHunter wrote:
Anytime anyone says something sucks, everyone else is going to start defending it.

I'm not saying fighter sucks. I'm saying that cavaliers are better.

Poorly built Cavaliers and fighters are both trash and some people have been saying you can just freeform the fighter, which just leads to a garbage character that can't scale into high levels.

Some classes are just hard to build wrong. Like your 10 con/10 dex wizard. He is just a little squishy but has some good mental stats. With high cha, you can more easily bind an outsider and then magic jar into their body, the you have new hp, con, and dex for days. A bad wizard is generally one who is played poorly or houseruled into the ground.


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I think the argument that the fact fighters need more books to build a decent build is ignoring the whole design of the class. The idea behind the fighter is that he uses his bonus feats (class ability) to create something unique. With most classes you end up with the situation where two characters playing the same class are very similar.

For the most part two cavaliers are going to be very similar to each other. They may have different orders and have a few different feats, but other than that they are pretty much the same. Every cavalier is going to be taking mostly the same feats. Show me a cavalier build that does not use Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge. Rhedyn states that he considers Monstrous Mount as another required feat. Add in power attack and that brings the number of required feats 5. This means that all the cavaliers’ feats until 9th level (7th for a human) are set in stone.

A fighter on the other hand is a blank slate with no preconceived ways to build them. You can have two fighters with extremely different builds. An archer based fighter is going to be completely different than a two handed reach fighter. In order for this to work you need to have a lot of feats to choose from. The core rule book simply does not have enough feats to make this happen. A lot of people seem to think this a problem, but honestly how many gamers do not purchase multiple books? I don’t know very many serious gamers who only purchase the core rule book. Most of us invest a significant amount of money in the game. So saying that needing to have multiple books is bad is kind of like saying the need to purchase multiple games makes the Xbox bad.

As to skills the cavalier does get more skill points but he also needs to spend more. What cavalier is not going to max out ride? Monstrous Mount requires 4 points in both ride and animal handler, Mounted Skirmisher requires 14 points in ride. To push your mount requires a DC of 25. You do get a +4 bonus to the roll because of animal companion link, but you still need to be able to make the roll. It’s a pretty safe assumption that any cavalier is going to be heavily investing in these skills. This means the extra skill ranks of the cavalier are mostly an illusion especially at low to mid-level. The fighter actually has as many discretionary skill points as the cavalier.

While the fighter does not have most of the social skills as class skills he does have ways to get a good roll. Any social skill can be made a class skill with a trait. The fighter also has one thing the cavalier does not have and that is feats. The fighter gets so many combat feats he can actually spend some of his normal feats on things other than combat. I can have a fighter that takes a trait to give him diplomacy as a class skill with a +1 trait bonus, and take skill focus diplomacy. Assuming a 12 CHA this gives me a +9 in diplomacy at 1st level. The cavalier at this point will have a +5. Assuming both characters max out diplomacy the cavalier has a +14 bonus at 10th level, where the fighter has a +21 at 10th level. At this point the fighter is probably better at diplomacy than a bard. This is being done with only the core rule book and the advance player’s guide. It did not take 6 splat books, or taking any archetype to do so.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

I think the argument that the fact fighters need more books to build a decent build is ignoring the whole design of the class. The idea behind the fighter is that he uses his bonus feats (class ability) to create something unique. With most classes you end up with the situation where two characters playing the same class are very similar.

For the most part two cavaliers are going to be very similar to each other. They may have different orders and have a few different feats, but other than that they are pretty much the same. Every cavalier is going to be taking mostly the same feats. Show me a cavalier build that does not use Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge. Rhedyn states that he considers Monstrous Mount as another required feat. Add in power attack and that brings the number of required feats 5. This means that all the cavaliers’ feats until 9th level (7th for a human) are set in stone.

A fighter on the other hand is a blank slate with no preconceived ways to build them. You can have two fighters with extremely different builds. An archer based fighter is going to be completely different than a two handed reach fighter. In order for this to work you need to have a lot of feats to choose from. The core rule book simply does not have enough feats to make this happen. A lot of people seem to think this a problem, but honestly how many gamers do not purchase multiple books? I don’t know very many serious gamers who only purchase the core rule book. Most of us invest a significant amount of money in the game. So saying that needing to have multiple books is bad is kind of like saying the need to purchase multiple games makes the Xbox bad.

As to skills the cavalier does get more skill points but he also needs to spend more. What cavalier is not going to max out ride? Monstrous Mount requires 4 points in both ride and animal handler, Mounted Skirmisher requires 14 points in ride. To push your mount requires a DC of 25. You do get a +4 bonus to the roll because of animal companion link, but you still need to be able to make the roll. It’s a pretty safe assumption that any cavalier is going to be heavily investing in these skills. This means the extra skill ranks of the cavalier are mostly an illusion especially at low to mid-level. The fighter actually has as many discretionary skill points as the cavalier.

While the fighter does not have most of the social skills as class skills he does have ways to get a good roll. Any social skill can be made a class skill with a trait. The fighter also has one thing the cavalier does not have and that is feats. The fighter gets so many combat feats he can actually spend some of his normal feats on things other than combat. I can have a fighter that takes a trait to give him diplomacy as a class skill with a +1 trait bonus, and take skill focus diplomacy. Assuming a 12 CHA this gives me a +9 in diplomacy at 1st level. The cavalier at this point will have a +5. Assuming both characters max out diplomacy the cavalier has a +14 bonus at 10th level, where the fighter has a +21 at 10th level. At this point the fighter is probably better at diplomacy than a bard. This is being done with only the core rule book and the advance player’s guide. It did not take 6 splat books, or taking any archetype to do so.

Monstrous Mount is Two Feats

That is 6 feats by level 7, but you can do that as a human and the cavalier does get 1 out of 3 bonus feats by now.

The problem with Fighter v Cavalier for the Fighter is that the fighter is trying to out compete both a Full Martial (Cavalier) and an Animal Companion in combat. Combat is an important area and that collapses many fighter builds when trying to do as well. A fighter can be better at skill than a cavalier, but not necessary at the same time as matching him in combat.

In terms of Skills, it's not really an illusion. Perhaps Ride can count against the cavalier, but Handle animal is a good skill in it's own right and expert trainer gives you the ability to mass train mounts, which has narrative impacts if any local lord wants more cavalry or you can use it to turn any ride-able animal into a party helper. Furthermore, the cavalier's order gives him bonuses to a skill and his animal companion gets some skills as well.

Speaking of the animal companion, a flying large sized strong mount can trivial otherwise resource draining exploration moments. The spellcaster do not need to cast fly to get over an obstacle and no one has to walk over a rickety bridge. It's important party contribution that the fighter will be hard pressed to match (In value not Kind) without significant investment that takes away from his combat investment.


Even before the nerf I never thought Lore Warden was the fix for the Fighter. The Arcane Duelist to me was the perfect fit for a skilled Fighter imo. It gives up some extra feats and some class abilites for better ones. Know Thy Enemy was just too limited and easily provided by a Bard in the group. It was giving the Fighter a limited form of Inspire courage yet one needed to waste a standard action to use it. Only at 14th level does it take a swift action.

At those coming into these threads to complain about the topic. No one is forcing anyone to go into a thread and respond let alone read the thread. Don't like a thread just hide it and move on.

I don't hate Fighters and will play them on occasion. Yet if someone like the OP asks my opinion which is better of the two I will always pick Cavalier.


Mostly it is comparison between a turd and slightly polished turd. Whatever you would want to do with either class can be done better with something else. Cavalier at least has the benefit of being easier to build within it's own niche. So I suppose that does make it better at least class design wise. Still I will say that when I hear that someone will be playing I won't cringe the way I do if someone tells me they will be playing a fighter or rogue.

So I suppose I agree with the OP on the basic statement, to me it is a difference without any meaning to it. Same way as Skill focus basket weaving might be worse than teamwork feats, but both are something nobody with choice will take assuming they are using reason to make the choice.

And you can certainly build varied cavaliers, sure the mounted ones are essentially limited to 4 builds, Melee mounted, Mounted archery and melee/ranged with using your 'mount' the same as you usually use animal companions. But there are plenty of archtypes that get rid of the mount. Cavalier as a class is more or less equivalent when it comes to build variety.


Wultram wrote:
Cavalier as a class is more or less equivalent when it comes to build variety.

What?


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Ok, before I get into this, I want to know what exactly are the benchmarks you want the fighter to be able to achieve that you will even consider it to be a match for the Cavalier?

Once you tell me what you would need, I will see whether I can make it work.

I also need build rules, what point buy, are traits allowed, etc.

I can't work in a vacuum.

I am starting with the following:
2 rounds to solo kill an appropriate enemy
Some way to meaningfully contribute to the party outside of combat.
No glaring weaknesses that make him a liability to the party.

If I can make a build that can do that will you be satisfied that the fighter is not worse than the cavalier?


For what it's worth I really like the new lore warden. I don't like dips and it's an improvement on the first for the long haul. I'm glad it was changed.


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Rhedyn wrote:
I'm saying that cavaliers are better.

I think the thing that you keep missing is that this is not a comparison that's really possible to make, since fighters can be taken in more different directions than Cavaliers can. If you want to ride a griffin, the Cavalier is great and no one is disputing that. But you can't take your griffin to fancy parties, into the sewer, underwater, into the attic of the abandoned asylum, etc.

At the same time if you wanted to play a blind swordsman, or an expert with the halfling slingstaff, or someone who despite a 10 INT has max ranks in 12 different skills by level 9, or an iron caster, etc. you're better off with a fighter.

After all, power versus versatility is not exactly a consensus in this game. So saying "X class is better than Y class" is going to be controversial with a lot of people, particularly when they can rattle off the last 3-4 versions of Y class they've played that simply wouldn't work as well with X class.


Rub-Eta wrote:
Wultram wrote:
Cavalier as a class is more or less equivalent when it comes to build variety.
What?

There was explanation of the statement in the same post you quoted. Now if you wanted to say something of merit try again.


J4RH34D wrote:

Ok, before I get into this, I want to know what exactly are the benchmarks you want the fighter to be able to achieve that you will even consider it to be a match for the Cavalier?

Once you tell me what you would need, I will see whether I can make it work.

I also need build rules, what point buy, are traits allowed, etc.

I can't work in a vacuum.

I am starting with the following:
2 rounds to solo kill an appropriate enemy
Some way to meaningfully contribute to the party outside of combat.
No glaring weaknesses that make him a liability to the party.

If I can make a build that can do that will you be satisfied that the fighter is not worse than the cavalier?

What I want to see from a fighter:

1-20 build order, 20 point buy, two Traits

Sample Cavalier Build:
Human Order of the Shield Cavalier || 18 14 14 12 10 8 || Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) || Fav(+¼ Banner Bonus)
1. Challenge 1/day, mount, order(Shield), tactician(Escape Route), Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack
2. Order ability(Resolute)
3. Cavalier's charge, Spirited Charge
4. Challenge 2/day, expert trainer
5. Banner, Monstrous Mount
6. Bonus feat(Power Attack)
7. Challenge 3/day, Monstrous Mount Mastery
8. Order ability(Stem the Tide)
9. Greater tactician(Shake It Off), Combat Reflexes
10. Challenge 4/day
11. Mighty charge, Blind-Fight
12. Bonus feat(Trick Riding), demanding challenge
13. Challenge 5/day, Indomitable Mount
14. Greater banner
15. Order ability(Protect the Meek), Mounted Skirmisher
16. Challenge 6/day
17. Master tactician(Coordinated Charge), Dazing Assault
18. Bonus feat(Stunning Assault)
19. Challenge 7/day, Iron Will
20. Supreme charge

Mount Feats: Narrow Frame, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Blind Fight, Cunning, Signature Skill(Fly), Skill focus(fly)

I want to see the fighter contribute more to the party in all areas. More specifically: Overall damage, overall damage mitigation, combat utility, out of combat utility, downtime activities

For Combat, the fighter is competing with the cavalier in general situations. From Cavalier on mount while challenging to cavalier with no challenge and denied his narrow framed mount. I am considering what I have had to deal with in combat ranging from mirror image save or die spammers to High AC Dragon bosses.

For Overall damage, I want to see a Fighter out damage a cavalier while on his mount or a cavalier while challenging without his mount.

Damage mitigation ranges from AC, DR, to saving throws

Combat Utility includes party buffs, battlefield control, disabling effects, and mobility including flight.

Out of combat utility includes skill points, what skills, proficiency with skills beyond ranks, at-will flight, spell effects, having a high strength score (for door, objects, carrying capacity, carrying people, ect).

Downtime activities include wealth generation, magic item creation, resource procurement whether that be material or social standing. Basically just have something to do here aside from getting drunk.

I want the fighter to contribute greater or the same in all categories for the majority of levels from 1-20. That would be a clear refutation of my original statement with little room left for debate.


So you are saying that for you to even consider that the fighter is equal we need to do every single thing better or at par.

You would not be happy with say 4 different builds, that each beat the cavalier in some areas but are worse off in others?


PossibleCabbage wrote:
But you can't take your griffin to fancy parties, into the sewer, underwater, into the attic of the abandoned asylum, etc.

Fancy Parties? No, unless the guest want to see my majestic creature but it can wait just outside.

It can fit into most sewers that are transferable by the party, attics as well. Narrow Frame and squeezing do not even consider the height dimension, but we will assume that the GM will patch that in so that height is a limiting factor (to the cavalier's detriment). But that still means that the mount is only being block by 5ft by 5ft holes or smaller. Any 5ft by Taller enough for a medium creature to walk unimpeded is fine for a mount with narrow frame.

A Fighter concept not working as the Cavalier is not what the thread talking about. I am only discussion general party contribution, and the two classes only compare because they cover the same niche of spell-less heavy armor dude.


J4RH34D wrote:

So you are saying that for you to even consider that the fighter is equal we need to do every single thing better or at par.

Short answer: No

J4RH34D wrote:
You would not be happy with say 4 different builds, that each beat the cavalier in some areas but are worse off in others?

Short answer: Maybe

Longer answer: I could be, but then you are relying on my personal preference of what is more important in those categories and by how much. It is not a certain thing.

You wanted a clear idea of what would cause me to admit the Cavalier is not just better with 100% certainty.


Give me a while and I will see what I can come up with.
Please advise as to what your damage guideline numbers are.

"or Overall damage, I want to see a Fighter out damage a cavalier while on his mount or a cavalier while challenging without his mount."

I want to know what my targets are here


I would also appreciate if you would indicate how your supplied build matches up with all of your criteria.


J4RH34D wrote:

Give me a while and I will see what I can come up with.

Please advise as to what your damage guideline numbers are.

"or Overall damage, I want to see a Fighter out damage a cavalier while on his mount or a cavalier while challenging without his mount."

I want to know what my targets are here

I can't give you fixed numbers from 1-20.

Challenge provides a +lvl bonus to damage like a paladin smite. Order of the shield challenge also provides a +1-5 morale bonus to-hit should the target attack anyone but the cavalier. So match that to-hit(easy) and that damage bonus without power attack [since the cavalier has that as well) (hard). The upside is that the cavalier is probably one-handed to have a shield and is not twf with it.

The harder metric is Cavalier on mount but no challenge. The animal companion gets pounce, the Cavalier has spirited charge and a lance. A human banner bonus adds +1-9 morale bonus to-hit on charges. Both of them full-attacking rather than charging is less damage but should be expected if they do not 1 round the target.

I only ask for one of those two situations for the fighter to exceed the Cavalier because I think that takes into account the situational aspect of the Cavalier's abilities (I don't expect you to out damage a charging challenging cavalier on his mount. That is a specific situation) while also factoring in how little I value the at-will mook destruction of the fighter.


J4RH34D wrote:
I would also appreciate if you would indicate how your supplied build matches up with all of your criteria.

For overall damage, we covered that.

For Damage mitigation, the Cavalier is most likely wielding a heavy shield. That is his bonus AC over standard plate (+2-7). Banner bonus to saves only really kicks in at level 14. Human favored class bonus adds to the bonuses. Eventual +10 moral to fear and +7 morale to charm and compulsion effects. Resolute converts some (1-5) damage to nonlethal, effectively doubling the DR from Adamantine armor.

Combat Utility: Stem the Tide and Combat reflexes eventually lock down a foe. Blind-fight partially counter many effects. Tactics gives allies escape routes, saves, or even organized charges. Banner applies boost to party. Griffon has sent and can fly.

Out of combat: He has 6 skill points per level, bonuses to handle animal and heal, and a flying griffon after level 7.

Downtime activities: Cavalier only has expert trainer and diplomacy.


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Cavall wrote:
For what it's worth I really like the new lore warden. I don't like dips and it's an improvement on the first for the long haul. I'm glad it was changed.

Gives up armor training and armor mastery,medium armor, heavy armor, and shields, and bravery. and a bonus feat. For two more SkP? And a few sword secrets?


Yes that's the one.


Fighter Sample Build:

Human Fighter || 14 18 12 12 12 9 || Perception, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Craft Armor, Use Magic Device
Traits: Auspicious Tattoo, Reactionary

1. Point Blank Shot, Precise shot. Fighter Bonus: Rapid Shot
2. Deadly Aim
3. Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4. Weapon Specialization (Longbow), +1 Dex
5. Combat Reflexes , Weapon Training (Bows)
6. Many Shot
7. Snap Shot, Master Armorer
8. Improved Crit (Longbow), +1 Dex
9. Improved Snapshot, Armed Bravery
10. Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
11. Clustered Shots, Armored Juggernaut
12. Point Blank Master, +1 Dex
13. Versatile Training (Bows, Perception), Advanced Weapon Training (Weapon Mastery (Burrowing Shot))

What I have so far,

For Damage I match, as I have a higher bonus to hit at +7, and have a +7 on each attack, and make minimum 3 attacks, meaning I hit the max +20 you get to damage.

For Out of combat utility, I have maxed face skills, and can craft magical armor.

For combat utility, I am specialized in the most damaging combat skill in the game and have no need to fly. I also can, once per round, inflict a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks and a 25% spell failure chance with all spells it casts that include somatic components.
I can also make AoO out to 15 ft

For Damage mitigation I have an equal AC due to armor specialisation, and I have additional DR on each and every attack.
My will save is boosted by bravery and armored bravery and I can increase my saves more with feats in my remaining 7 levels.

I can also rearrange feats to boost saves earlier.

I could also forgeo boosting my damage so much early, and get a mount at the same level as the cavalier.
Due to saving money on my armor, and the party's armor, we could pitch in for more scrolls for our wizard, to overcome flight issues and the like.

Let me know your thoughts on this please Rhedyn


J4RH34D wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

What I have so far,

For Damage I match, as I have a higher bonus to hit at +7, and have a +7 on each attack, and make minimum 3 attacks, meaning I hit the max +20 you get to damage.

For Out of combat utility, I have maxed face skills, and can craft magical armor.

For combat utility, I am specialized in the most damaging combat skill in the game and have no need to fly. I also can, once per round, inflict a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks and a 25% spell failure chance with all spells it casts that include somatic components.
I can also make AoO out to 15 ft

For Damage mitigation I have an equal AC due to armor specialisation, and I have additional DR on each and every attack.
My will save is boosted by bravery and armored bravery and I can increase my saves more with feats in my remaining 7 levels.

I can also rearrange feats to boost saves earlier.

I could also forgeo boosting my damage so much early, and get a mount at the same level as the cavalier.
Due to saving money on my armor, and the party's armor, we could pitch in for more scrolls for our wizard, to overcome flight issues and the like.

Let me know your thoughts on this please Rhedyn

Are you acting as the melee character, but just with a Bow? If so, neat idea. If not, you neglected improved precise shot which means you eat that minus 4 soft cover penalty. Also cavaliers on a challenge get that +lvl bonus to every attack, which means you need to match that as well or we can factor in Manyshot's bonus attack to cover some damage.

Your fighter v Cavalier
-Damage (I'm assuming the Order of shield bonus triggers because if the enemy is only focusing you, I consider that a win for the party. Your damage is part of the incentive to attack you. So I am seeing +4/+13 vs your effective +3/+7 +manyshot after soft cover. If you are in melee, then I say you do more damage)
=AC (I do not see armor specialization, but you do have higher dex and a means to use it)
=Minor Buff (I would say Tactician and Burrowing shot are a wash)
+Saves (Armed bravery)
+HP (Your favored class is going somewhere)
-Skills (You are missing a skill point per level since Master Armorer provides it. You should have one more. I value skills more in early levels and you do not get versatile training until level 13. You have a -cha and UMD does not appear to be a class skill so the skill will take a very long time to use wands at will. I honestly consider it a waste of points without some support.)
-BFC (You have a good area of AOOs, but nothing seems to stop creatures from moving past you aside from damage)
+Downtime
-At-will flight

That is my point by point analyses.

Overall damage: I have your fighter being lesser here for now.
Damage mitigation: Your fighter is superior here.
Combat Utility: I have your fighter being lesser here.
Out of combat utility: I have your fighter being lesser here.
Downtime activities: Your fighter is superior here. Crafting magic armor is very useful and those flat cost enhancements can add a lot.


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Cavaliers have a limited number of challenges a day. Its not always going to apply.


Not that much of a issue. Yes Challenges are limited in the amount of uses they can be used per day. The end result is the Cavalier does less damage than the Fighter while also being a more versatile class. The way I play Cavaliers and see them played most players save up the Challenge ability for really important enemies. So running out is never a issue.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Cavaliers have a limited number of challenges a day. Its not always going to apply.

The Goal is either out damaging a Cavalier while challenging without his mount or a Cavalier with his mount. The former is easier to measure against.

The goal isn't Cavalier and griffon charging/pouncing a challenged target. That would not be remotely fair to the fighter.

The Exchange

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Soooo....that's one Cavalier build. So one campaign of fun. Now that campaign has ended and the next one starts.

Whats your Cavalier build for this one?


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How is my out of combat less?

For the first 7 levels I have max ranks in diplo, intimidate, and sense motive making me a decent party face.

After level 7 I am crafting magical armor for my party.

I put ranks in UMD as a placeholder

Are you taking into consideration how often you will have difficult terrain which negates your charge until you get your flying mount?

As I said, I can easily shift feats by 1 level to add in required feats.

If my party is allowing me to take advantage of firing lanes, the same way we can assume the cavalier is getting to take advantage of charge lanes, I then do not suffer the minus 4 to hit.

I am also able to engage at a range of 300ft with those modifiers, and could easily increase that.

A major combat utility which I missed is golfbag ability with special arrows, not that I need it for DR due to clustered shots.
I could easily carry say 5 bane arrows of common enemies, which then takes me, even with soft cover, up to +5/+11 + many shot which puts me ahead of you.

For at will flight, I buy a combat trained griffon.

I have as = in out of combat till 7, ahead after.

In Damage I have me as ahead, as I can make a full attack every round, ignore hardness, and have superior to hit modifiers.

Combat utility I have as equal as I can debuff multiple enemies, and severy hinder casters with my debuff. I can also ready actions to interupt easier. I also still have 7 levels of options to expand my utility.

At will fly is purchasable by many means and so I have us = on out of combat utility due to skills

Overall Damage +
Damage mitigation +
Combat Utility =
Out of combat utility =
Downtime +

Thoughts?

The Exchange

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Also, the goal isn't to out damage, it's to equal. This isn't proving fighter is better. This proving it's not worse.

If you're saying the only way a class can be considered the same as Cavalier is to be able out perform Cavalier ......well your perception on "same" is skewed.


Wrath, I decided that to try and convince him as you had being doing, while noble, hadn't worked. As such I thought I would try and do so with his own criteria, and I do believe I have succeeded.

The Exchange

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J4RH34D wrote:
Wrath, I decided that to try and convince him as you had being doing, while noble, hadn't worked. As such I thought I would try and do so with his own criteria, and I do believe I have succeeded.

I agree. Your build easily competes, and in many places outperforms his build.

I just disagree with the entire premise of out building each other. Feels too much like computer games forums for raids.

"You can't play that character if you want to raid with us because your dps and gear level is 0.0005 worse than this one acceptable build"

That can be meaningful in really competitive computer games. But it's competently irrelevant in roleplay games like Pathfinder.


I agree completely with you, any build that you have fun with is a good build.

I was mostly using this as an exercise to test my own ability to build a mechanically difficult to build class and reach some goals with it.


J4RH34D wrote:

How is my out of combat less?

For the first 7 levels I have max ranks in diplo, intimidate, and sense motive making me a decent party face.

After level 7 I am crafting magical armor for my party.

I put ranks in UMD as a placeholder

Are you taking into consideration how often you will have difficult terrain which negates your charge until you get your flying mount?

As I said, I can easily shift feats by 1 level to add in required feats.

If my party is allowing me to take advantage of firing lanes, the same way we can assume the cavalier is getting to take advantage of charge lanes, I then do not suffer the minus 4 to hit.

I am also able to engage at a range of 300ft with those modifiers, and could easily increase that.

A major combat utility which I missed is golfbag ability with special arrows, not that I need it for DR due to clustered shots.
I could easily carry say 5 bane arrows of common enemies, which then takes me, even with soft cover, up to +5/+11 + many shot which puts me ahead of you.

For at will flight, I buy a combat trained griffon.

I have as = in out of combat till 7, ahead after.

In Damage I have me as ahead, as I can make a full attack every round, ignore hardness, and have superior to hit modifiers.

Combat utility I have as equal as I can debuff multiple enemies, and severy hinder casters with my debuff. I can also ready actions to interupt easier. I also still have 7 levels of options to expand my utility.

At will fly is purchasable by many means and so I have us = on out of combat utility due to skills

Overall Damage +
Damage mitigation +
Combat Utility =
Out of combat utility =
Downtime +

Thoughts?

My original assessment stands. These further clarification did not affect how I measured the fighter vs the cavalier.

On Charge Lanes vs Soft cover: It's my experience that melees can charge while range characters have to deal with soft cover. Even then, Charge lanes are not even needed here for the cavalier to pull ahead. A set up two conditions to beat because the mount is hard to quantify. The challenging cavalier without a mount is a far easier metric to beat and would show the fighter can basically compete with two characters (cavalier+mount) for overall damage.


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Full Disclosure: The actual point of this thread is that I wanted to be proved wrong and I wanted to be shown additional cool things both the fighter and cavalier can do.

For the cavalier, I discovered the Narrow Frame feat and hosteling armor.

For the fighter, the idea of retraining old feats for new advance armor/weapon training was gained.

Sadly, I have seen nothing that actually provides that cohesive fighter I want, while the cavalier remains a solid class with far more actual build flexibility and I am bitter about that. Fighter is the class that I have had the most fun with.

The Exchange

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So....you came in with a presumed answer, and despite numerous points to the contrary, you've still got the same presumed answer.

Thread should have been "I love Cavaliers and nothing you can say will change my mind"

Which is totally cool if that's what you like.

I got a lot out of the thread though. I enjoyed putting my thoughts into words. I got see multiple perspectives on the topic, and form arguments for or against. Great mental activity.

It also reaffirmed my assertion that these argument threats are pointless for anything outside just good mental exercise.


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It seems like the reason to play a fighter should be abundantly clear- You want to do something that requires a lot of feats fast. Maybe you want to do something that is hard to do without AAT or AWT.

The "here's some fun things you can do with a fighter" is at the stage after you've decided to play a fighter. "Play a fighter" is the answer to something like "I want to play a thrown weapon character, what classes can do that well?".


More points then:

On damage:

My Fighter is making 4 attacks, for 5 instances of damage.
Your cavalier is making 3 for 3.
I believe that that makes up for that issue.
If you still have issues with my damage, I trade out my point blank master, for improved precise shot, and I am ahead, and get more attacks, and can stay 200 ft away from my target and have a +5/7 on every attack.

On combat utility (BFC included):

My fighter can hit 4 targets within a radius of 100ft easily, your cavalier can manage maybe 2 within 100ft, in a line.
I can target mages behind rows of bodies, from level 1, while you need to either have a charge lane, or have a flying mount.

I take stand still instead of improved crit at lvl 8. I now have the same battlefield control as you.
And I can still Hit people further away than you.

Out of combat Utility:

You say you have better out of combat utility due to 6 skill points and a flying mount.

I ask how are climb and heal helping you out of combat? and climb is negated beyond lvl 7 by your mount anyway.
I have 4 skills per rank and am using them in diplo, intimidate, and sense motive, which are all valuable in out of combat from level one.
Beyond that I am saving everyone money so they ENTIRE PARTY can have more niche magic items increasing the entire parties out of combat utility.

For eg, the 500gp I save my buddy on his +1 armor, he spends to buy a scroll of invisibility, which we give to the wizard, and have him make more, with the 500 I saved on my armor.
This is repeatable with many other situations.
Gold is incredibely important and I am saving lots ofr my whole aprty.

On gold: I am not having to spend gold on equiping a mount.
So lets assume at a minimum your mount would have a cloak of resistance, some armor, and maybe an amulet of mighty fists.
That is money I can instead spend on gaining flight through any number of other means, or buying wands for the wizard to use, or any other number of useful items purchased.

Remember also that I still have 7 feats

I also have the ability to gain more skills, and other cool tricks as well.

Please tell me where I am wrong on any of these points. Also kindly advise as to how what your cavalier can do is better than what I have outlined my LVL 13 fighter can do.


Here is a 'fighter' build that meets my criteria:
Focused Study Human Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutagen Warrior || 18 13 14 13 10 9||4 skills per level (Perception, UMD), secondary skills (pump fly when available): Climb, Survival, Swim) || Traits: Free
1. Skill Focus(perception), Combat Reflexes, Familiar(Mauler)
2. Share Training, Steel Will
3. Mauler’s Endurance, Mutagen
4. Power Attack
5. Extra Martial Flexibility, Martial Flexibility(move action)
6. Combat Expertise
7. Improved Familiar, wings
8. Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Unarmed Strike
9. Critical Focus, MF(1 swift, 2 move)
10. Dodge
11. Pindown, infuse mutagen
12.Disruptive
13. Mobility
14. Dazing Assault, MF(1 free, 2 swift, 3 move)
15. Improved Initiative, greater mutagen
16. Skill Focus(Fly), Stunning Assault
17. Blind-fight, MF(1 immediate, 3 swift)
18. Lookout
19. Outflank, grand mutagen
20. Coordinated Charge, MF(any as swift action)

The only downside is it is not really a fighter anymore.

+Damage (Medium Mauler, mutagen works wonders and you can have multiple at later levels
-AC (Mutagen is only sometimes)
+Saves (Steel Will is basically armed bravery)
=Skills (points are lower, but the skills are arguably more useful Perception/UMD plus secondary skills and then fly maxed).
+Flexibility (on command feat chains shared with Mauler)

so...

Overall Damage: +Fighter
Damage Mitigation: Wash (Saves better but situational AC boost)
Combat Utility: +Fighter (not at will, but can bring the right tools to the right fight)
Out of Combat Utility: +Cavalier (Fighter flying is not at-will, everything else it a wash)
Downtime: +Cavalier (This fighter does not really have anything to do at all).

This fighter edges out the cavalier, he just had to give up all but 8 bonus feats in class features.


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That build is sub-optimal. Archetypes that give up weapon training or armor training are sub-optimal builds now. Some REALLY GOOD ones can get away with giving up one, and frankly steel will is strictly worse than armed bravery as having the bravery ability is a prereq for some great feats. Improved/Inspired bravery is a crazy powerful party buff to just always have on with a 30' radius.

Damage mitigation is only a wash because you gave up Advanced armor trainings armored juggernaut, which gives you DR comperable to the invulnerable rager as soon as you can afford adamantite heavy armor.

Out of combat utility is only a wash because you gave up weapon training and deliberately avoided the class options which provide out of combat utility, and the same with downtime. You can freely take a single option that gives max ranks in craft armorer and master craftsman/craft arms and armor, giving you plenty to do in downtime.


honestly......
I cant believe I read this whole thread....

I could give time and desire to do so make a build.
dont have the time or desire.

taht said. I dont care for the cavalier on the grounds I dont care for classes that all or most of their bells and whistles require you to be mounted, not mounted and other such stuff.

my other opinion on the cavalier is that it flies as a military style campaign. charge and all that.
mounted or not paladins, fighters, and cavaliers will do well there. relying on a mount though still has the issue of it being taken out from under you, even more so if you are on a flying mount. feats Im sure can fix that to some degree.

but you know what? my fighter's mount is a flying carpet....watch the carpet burn. still can fly be up in one place can carry the halfing spellcaster or alchemist and rain on your parade.

my opinion stands as far as I am concerned and I will leave you to yours.
now go back to what seems like a bunch of nit picking and I will go and get dinner, so.. Good Day Sir or Ma'am


Slightly different but levels better:
Focused Study Human Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutagen Warrior || 18 13 14 13 10 9||4 skills per level (Perception, UMD), secondary skills (pump fly when available): Climb, Survival, Swim) || Traits: Magical Talent(Prestidigitation), Blood of Dragons(Low-Light Vision)
1. Skill Focus(perception), Combat Reflexes, Familiar(Mauler)
2. Share Training, Steel Will
3. Mauler’s Endurance, Mutagen
4. Power Attack
5. Extra Martial Flexibility, Martial Flexibility(move action)
6. Combat Expertise
7. Improved Familiar, wings
8. Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Unarmed Strike
9. Critical Focus, MF(1 swift, 2 move)
10. Combat Stamina
11. Pindown, infuse mutagen
12. Dodge
13. Disruptive
14. Blind-fight, MF(1 free, 2 swift, 3 move)
15. Mobility, greater mutagen
16. Skill Focus(Fly), Extra Stamina
17. Extra Stamina, MF(1 immediate, 3 swift)
18. Extra Stamina
19. Extra Stamina, grand mutagen
20. Extra Stamina, MF(any as swift action)


Ryan Freire wrote:

That build is sub-optimal. Archetypes that give up weapon training or armor training are sub-optimal builds now. Some REALLY GOOD ones can get away with giving up one, and frankly steel will is strictly worse than armed bravery as having the bravery ability is a prereq for some great feats. Improved/Inspired bravery is a crazy powerful party buff to just always have on with a 30' radius.

Damage mitigation is only a wash because you gave up Advanced armor trainings armored juggernaut, which gives you DR comperable to the invulnerable rager as soon as you can afford adamantite heavy armor.

Out of combat utility is only a wash because you gave up weapon training and deliberately avoided the class options which provide out of combat utility, and the same with downtime. You can freely take a single option that gives max ranks in craft armorer and master craftsman/craft arms and armor, giving you plenty to do in downtime.

link


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I'm just saying it seems disingenuous to pick the strictly worse options in the name of "combat versatility" then claim your favorite class outperforms in those opportunities you chose to pass on in order to be better at fightan.


Ryan Freire wrote:
I'm just saying it seems disingenuous to pick the strictly worse options in the name of "combat versatility" then claim your favorite class outperforms in those opportunities you chose to pass on in order to be better at fightan.

No its disingenuous to list a half a dozen select-able options and pretend they are baseline fighter abilities while still not offering any builds that show how you manage it.

The builds that attempt what you go on and on about end up still worse at skills, decent downtime, tanky-er, but worse damage and combat utility.

The advance armor/weapon training just aren't that good compared to getting real class features.


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If anything an archer will have to deal with soft cover less than a charger does charge lanes.

An archer can 5 foot step into a clear path to full attack, and can choose any target within double the squares of a charger.

A charger cant 5 foot step and still charge.

Therefore reassess again.

Also saying advanced weapon and armour options aren't that good compared to class features is incorrect to a degree that borders illiteracy.


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Cavall wrote:
Also saying advanced weapon and armour options aren't that good compared to class features is incorrect to a degree that borders illiteracy.

They work like bandaids when many of them should have been worked into a baseline unchained fighter and could have been better designed as a result.


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I don't concede that. That aren't bandaids they are options. Good ones. But players that prefer the original options still can choose those if they want a fighter with many weapon choices.

Your narrow frame feet is vastly more a bandaid as it specifically was made for a class that needed movement. Was not part of base class.

Once again any statement you make about the fighter class needs to apply to the cavalier class as well or be deemed moot.

If you want narrow frame, a fighter is allowed a like option.

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