While intelligent undead have their problems with heroes looking to destroy them, what options do they have to protect against evil foes, such as clerics or necromancers, who mean to command and control them?
Spells used against them for this purpose are necromantic, and therefore aren't as easily defended against the way compulsion spells are for the living. (e.g., Protection from Good/Evil)
If I'm not mistaken, Death Ward doesn't help and is probably out of reach for many intelligent undead anyhow. Items that boost Will saves can increase their odds, but even that seems like a tepid ward. There must be some other options for them to fall back upon.
|
Death Ward targets a living creature. Much like another thread about protecting yourself form spells that don't allow saves there are only a handful of things that work.
Spell Immunity (and its Greater version) - good if you know what your hunters use, or are concerned about 1 spell (searing light for example).
Globe of Invulnerability simply turns off lower level spells.
Spell Turning can work here too. Sadly, lots of the stuff PCs throw at undead is less effective (or useless) on the living so the reflection isn't as good). However, undead tend to have poor Fort saves so reflecting a Disintegrate is amazing.
|
|
The biggest threat here is Command Undead feat. Hard to stop that short of bumping your will save. Intelligent undead often have Channel Resistance (bonus to saves) and you get a save everyday. Even if the necromancer has jacked up his DCs, eventually you'll roll a 20.
The feat references the spell: "If the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions favorably (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. "
Friendly does not mean mindless slave. If you person controlling you isn't careful about their orders, well... "I'm sorry, but you said Fireball the goblins. Its not my fault two of your allies were in the blast. You didn't tell me NOT for maximize the fireball."
If the undead is a necromancer themselves they may be able to use their own spells and powers to counter those of others. The undead necromancer simply casts the spell, or uses the feat on himself and orders himself not to obey other necromancers. Since you can voluntarily fail a saving throw the undead necromancer gets an opposed charisma check to any command. If the order is something the undead necromancer is opposed to they should get two opposed charisma as well as a saving throw vs the effect that is commanding them. Considering undead have good will saves and decent charisma controlling a undead necromancer is going to be extremely difficult.
Protection from Evil would work, assuming the necromancer is evil (pretty easy assumption).
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature(including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
Protection from Evil doesn't just protect from enchantment spells, it protects from any form of direct control by an evil spell or an evil spell caster. Ergo, an intelligent undead using protection from evil would be immune to a necromancers attempts to control them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Best defense: don't look undead: hat of Disquise, Alter Self, a high disguise skill, Disguise Self, Non-Dectection, etc.
Knowledge is power. Take control of it and your opponents are at a severe disadvantage.
Protection from Evil doesn't just protect from enchantment spells, it protects from any form of direct control by an evil spell or an evil spell caster. Ergo, an intelligent undead using protection from evil would be immune to a necromancers attempts to control them.
Is it really mental control the necromancer is exerting when using Command Undead? Seems to me that the control isn't of the same sort as would work on the living -- undead are immune to mind-effects after all. The bonus to saves would help, however.
I guess that would depend on your GMs interpretation of what "mental control" is, but if you get to give direct commands to someone I would consider it "mental control".
I guess that would depend on your GMs interpretation of what "mental control" is, but if you get to give direct commands to someone I would consider it "mental control".
Command Undead also works on things like zombies and skeletons, so it's hard to suggest that the mechanism is via "mental control."
The comparable spell for living creatures is Charm Person, and as with all enchantment spells, that one is mind-affecting. Meanwhile, Command Undead is a necromancy spell which has no comparable subschool or qualifier.
That said, it sure SEEMS as though Protection from X spells is a balanced approach to the situation even if by RAW it does not appear to provide for it. That said, perhaps this weakness is the balanced answer. After all, undead have a lot of immunities, resistances and other perks. Difficulty in defending against Command/Control spells might be a calculated flaw rather than an oversight or carry over from earlier days.
Best defense: don't look undead: hat of Disquise, Alter Self, a high disguise skill, Disguise Self, Non-Dectection, etc.
Hat of disguise and disguise self wouldn't work because you can't disguise your creature type (only subtype). So, a hat of disguise would let a vampire try to look like a ghoul or a lich, but not a humanoid. The disguise skill also does not suggest that you can disguise as another type, as we'd expect it to list include a penalty for doing so, and it does not.
Of them, Alter Self is the only one that would get the job done in terms of appearance.
I could make the argument that it is mental control, and sense mindless undead are in fact mindless, they possess no ability to resist the control. Along with the argument that undead are sufficiently different from living creatures that normal mental control magic doesn't work on them, except you can have threnodic charm monster which would work.
Ultimately it's up to your GM to decide.
Best defense: don't look undead: hat of Disquise, Alter Self, a high disguise skill, Disguise Self, Non-Dectection, etc.Hat of disguise and disguise self wouldn't work because you can't disguise your creature type (only subtype). So, a hat of disguise would let a vampire try to look like a ghoul or a lich, but not a humanoid. The disguise skill also does not suggest that you can disguise as another type, as we'd expect it to list include a penalty for doing so, and it does not.
Of them, Alter Self is the only one that would get the job done in terms of appearance.
Polymorph effects never change creature type, but Alter Self grants a +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks.
Disguise Self and the Hat of Disguise are illusions. They change nothing save appearance (i.e. looking like something you are not). Disguise Self also grants a +10 circumstance bonus on disguise checks.
Polymorph effects never change creature type ...
Not true. The transformation subschool reads: "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type ..." The disguise bonus from Alter Self allows someone to realize that you are not what you appear to be, even if you have an actual, physical form of that creature type. (i.e., someone recognizes that your behavior, demeanor or conduct isn't representative of the creature type. "Hey! That bear is reading a book!")
Disguise Self and the Hat of Disguise are illusions. They change nothing save appearance (i.e. looking like something you are not). Disguise Self also grants a +10 circumstance bonus on disguise checks.
The text of Disguise Self outlines its limitation: "You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)." Despite being illusory, they still can't make you appear as an undead if you're a humanoid, or vice versa.
I could make the argument that it is mental control, and sense mindless undead are in fact mindless, they possess no ability to resist the control. Along with the argument that undead are sufficiently different from living creatures that normal mental control magic doesn't work on them, except you can have threnodic charm monster which would work.
Ultimately it's up to your GM to decide.
I think it's a strong argument but it doesn't appear to hold up. For example, the descriptive text for Threnodic Spell reads:
"You can convert mind-affecting magic to necromantic power capable of controlling undead."
This essentially states that the magic is not mind-affecting, but is instead transformed into an equivalent necromantic form.
I think the point behind the disguises was that not looking like what you are is a good defense. A mister that looks like a fire giant is unlikely to get hit int the face with a fireball. A monster that looks living, is unlikely to be hit with command undead.
Protection from Evil would work, assuming the necromancer is evil (pretty easy assumption).
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creatureProtection from Evil doesn't just protect from enchantment spells, it protects from any form of direct control by an evil spell or an evil spell caster. Ergo, an intelligent undead using protection from evil would be immune to a necromancers attempts to control them.(including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
I agree, but, since Protection from Evil is a (Good) aligned spell, we should remember that many undead will have difficulty casting it. Fortunately, UMD specifically provides a get-around, at least when we are talking wands and such. If your table runs aligned spells causing small and/or tempororary alignment shifts when cast then that undead has to take on Existential Angst in return for safety. We should call this the "Whedon Effect".
I don't really buy MA's objection. Since "mindless" undead and other "non-intelligent" creatures are capable of more than filter feeding, there has to be some form of (very alien) intelligence there, and the fact that there exist specific abilities, charms and commands that can get around those immunities supports this.
I could make the argument that it is mental control, and sense mindless undead are in fact mindless, they possess no ability to resist the control. Along with the argument that undead are sufficiently different from living creatures that normal mental control magic doesn't work on them, except you can have threnodic charm monster which would work.
Ultimately it's up to your GM to decide.
I think it's a strong argument but it doesn't appear to hold up. For example, the descriptive text for Threnodic Spell reads:
"You can convert mind-affecting magic to necromantic power capable of controlling undead."
This essentially states that the magic is not mind-affecting, but is instead transformed into an equivalent necromantic form.
Mind-affecting doesn't equal "mental control" though is the problem, or else the spell would've specified it protected you from all mind-affecting spells. However, it doesn't do this, it uses an undefined game term of "mental control". Of course Command Undead isn't mind affecting, or else undead would be immune to it. But, it might still be mental control because that isn't rigorously defined anywhere.
Mind-affecting doesn't equal "mental control" though is the problem, or else the spell would've specified it protected you from all mind-affecting spells. However, it doesn't do this, it uses an undefined game term of "mental control". Of course Command Undead isn't mind affecting, or else undead would be immune to it. But, it might still be mental control because that isn't rigorously defined anywhere.
I want to be convinced by the argument. I think it is, by and large, a reasonable understanding. And you're right, "mental control" lacks definition that would resolve the question. The "mind" of intelligent undead is anything but clear as well. All we can say for sure is that necromantic power has the ability to achieve the same thing on undead that enchantment spells do for the living.
Keeping all that in mind, what I'd love to uncover is an example from official content of an undead creature using this spell (or anything else at all) to counter a necromancer who means to command or control them. That would conclude the matter entirely, certainly for this spell. But if another method is used, particularly if demanding more power or resources when a Protection from X spell would be possible instead, well, that may shed a lot of light as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If not mental control, what kind of control is Command Undead? Physical? Emotional? Financial?
Its obviously control of some sort. But there's no spiked collar and chain, so its not physical. No exchange of GP, not financial. No diplomacy/bluff/intimidate checks required, so not emotional.
That really only leaves two options: mental control... and just control. Which brings us full circle, so we either go full circular reasoning and willfully get nowhere, or we turn off the roundabout at the only sensible exit: mental control.
Prot from X doesn't ever mention mind effects, just subschools like charm and compulsion, which are specifically examples and not an exhaustive list.
Protection from X would interfere with the Control Construct spell, and it is transmutation. Magic Jar is explicitly stated as control is blocked, and it is necromancy. Command Undead being necromantic is no issue. The issue is whether control is established. Nothing more or less. If the undead fails its save vrs Command undead, they are controlled. Seems clear enough to me. Granted, Prot from X specifically gives a "DM interpretation" clause, but I think this is the reasonable interpretation, and thus usage, of said clause.
If not mental control, what kind of control is Command Undead? Physical? Emotional? Financial?
Necromantic control, of course. Meaning that the negative energy or even the soul of the creature is controlled or influenced in some fashion to produce the result.
That this is how it functions was pointed out earlier relating to the Threnodic Spell Metamagic: "You can convert mind-affecting magic to necromantic power capable of controlling undead."
Magic Jar is explicitly stated as control is blocked, and it is necromancy. Command Undead being necromantic is no issue.
Magic Jar is a possession effect which Protection from X spells explicitly defend against. That Command Undead and Magic Jar are both necromantic doesn't confirm that PfX spells function as a ward against both.
Polymorph effects never change creature type ...Not true. The transformation subschool reads: "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type ..." The disguise bonus from Alter Self allows someone to realize that you are not what you appear to be, even if you have an actual, physical form of that creature type. (i.e., someone recognizes that your behavior, demeanor or conduct isn't representative of the creature type. "Hey! That bear is reading a book!")
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses.
Spells of the polymorph sub-school grant you for the of a specific type of creature. They do no grant the creature type. Polymorph school spells specifically grant a +10 bonus to the disguise skill. Alter Self is of the polymorph sub-school.
The text of Disguise Self outlines its limitation: "You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)." Despite being illusory, they still can't make you appear as an undead if you're a humanoid, or vice versa.
Disguise Self and the Hat of Disguise are illusions. They change nothing save appearance (i.e. looking like something you are not). Disguise Self also grants a +10 circumstance bonus on disguise checks.
Many undead are either a subtype of humanoid or have the augmented humanoid subtype. Either case allows them to assume the standard range of humanoid appearances.
On a second note: vampires appear human. Any undead taking on the appearance of a vampire via Disguise Self would appear human while lacking most of the tells that would betray a vampire. They would appear in mirrors, cast shadows, remain capable of acting in sunlight, etc. With the +10 modifier granted by magical disguises, a modest skill investment, and the ability to take 20, the disguise skill becomes very difficult to beat.
Spells of the polymorph sub-school grant you for the of a specific type of creature. They do no grant the creature type. Polymorph school spells specifically grant a +10 bonus to the disguise skill. Alter Self is of the polymorph sub-school.
We only need to look at the Alter Self spell to see that this isn't true:
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type."
Humanoid is the broad, non-specific type. The only limitation here is on size -- small or medium. Still, Alter Self would grant the humanoid form, accomplishing the goal.
Many undead are either a subtype of humanoid or have the augmented humanoid subtype.
Yes, but their type is still undead and the list of applicable forms is even shorter (try walking into a Starbucks as a Nosferatu or Graveknight and see if you get service):
Feral Vampire Spawn
Ghost
Graveknight
Human Juju Zombie
Jiang-shi
Lich
Nosferatu
Penanggalen
Siabrae
Trench Zombie
Vampire
Vetala
As suggested by Ascalaphus and yourself, a vampire or possibly Vetala is maybe the best bet to appear human-like to most people, but even that will falter against someone with enough knowledge (religion) and a keen eye. And when that happens, we're back to the question as to whether that evil-cleric-who-just-recognized-you-are-undead can Command you, or if your Protection from Evil spell gives ample shelter when he tries.
As suggested by Ascalaphus and yourself, a vampire or possibly Vetala is maybe the best bet to appear human-like to most people, but even that will falter against someone with enough knowledge (religion) and a keen eye. And when that happens, we're back to the question as to whether that evil-cleric-who-just-recognized-you-are-undead can Command you, or if your Protection from Evil spell gives ample shelter when he tries.
To use knowledge: religion they would first have to overcome the opposed disguise check. With a little invest in time + magic anyone can a starting point of 30 + skill bonus. (+10 for magic, take 20 by spending 1 minute preparing - using magic reduces the normal action time for a disguise check to a standard action)
With any meaningful investment the undead's side of the opposed roll will quickly reach the 40's. Only a character highly focused on perception will be beating this at an equal CR.
But as stated, the best defense against undead specific spells is concealing the fact that you are undead.