Oh, I missed that part of it, mostly looking at the numbers, my bad. (or was it added in an edit?)
Nope, it was there right away.
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I'm getting confused by the long comparisons to mechanics of a (video?) game I've never even heard of.
Oh, I missed that part of it, mostly looking at the numbers, my bad. (or was it added in an edit?)Nope, it was there right away.
I mean, the rest of my points still stand. The hurry chain doesn't seem at all impressive in a game where three classes have ways to both move and full attack (or approximate a full attack) baked into their class features. Moreover, your math didn't include the chance to feint in any way or form, thus skewing it in favour of Envoy.
Moreover, your math assumes both the Soldier and the Solarian can triple-attack to specifically make the math as much in favour of each point of attack bonus as possible, implying levels in excess of 13. At that point, the Operative can use things like Stunning Shot, which are far from directly comparable with the buffs Envoy gives.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Moreover, your math didn't include the chance to feint in any way or form, thus skewing it in favour of Envoy.
Moreover, your math assumes both the Soldier and the Solarian can triple-attack to specifically make the math as much in favour of each point of attack bonus as possible, implying levels in excess of 13. At that point, the Operative can use things like Stunning Shot, which are far from directly comparable with the buffs Envoy gives.
The envoy can spend resolve if necessary to ensure the feint, but she shouldn't have too much trouble making it stick assuming Bluff for inspiration, but she came out quite a bit ahead there (1.84 vs 1.4) and would still be ahead even if we said she had a 50/50 chance to fail to feint (which is definitely overestimaing) and didn't want to spend resolve (still ahead 1.54 vs 1.4). I agree that stunning shot is hard to directly compare to buffs; buffs are more reliable and stunning shot is more powerful if it sticks. A larger group is going to help the envoy even more (in a 6 player game, the envoy will likely be able to nearly double the operative in damage + damage from buffs/debuffs, since you get 3.04 vs 1.61 with a single extra big hitter, but you'll probably have several other support or casters in a big group). Support's power is subtle and generally requires you to go into it with a notebook to jot things down in order to measure it, since the strongest gains come when making lots of other people hit and roll the damage, so you have to be aware of how many potential misses became hits.
The envoy can spend resolve if necessary to ensure the feint, but she shouldn't have too much trouble making it stick assuming Bluff for inspiration, but she came out quite a bit ahead there (1.84 vs 1.4) and would still be ahead even if we said she had a 50/50 chance to fail to feint (which is definitely overestimaing) and didn't want to spend resolve (still ahead 1.54 vs 1.4). I agree that stunning shot is hard to directly compare to buffs; buffs are more reliable and stunning shot is more powerful if it sticks. A larger group is going to help the envoy even more (in a 6 player game, the envoy will likely be able to nearly double the operative in damage + damage from buffs/debuffs, since you get 3.04 vs 1.61 with a single extra big hitter, but you'll probably have several other support or casters in a big group).Moreover, your math didn't include the chance to feint in any way or form, thus skewing it in favour of Envoy.
Moreover, your math assumes both the Soldier and the Solarian can triple-attack to specifically make the math as much in favour of each point of attack bonus as possible, implying levels in excess of 13. At that point, the Operative can use things like Stunning Shot, which are far from directly comparable with the buffs Envoy gives.
I need to see Alien Archive and/or actual play to respond to this further. I currently lack sufficient data to contest those numbers, though I still have strong doubts about an advantage of +2 to attack in terms of buffs somehow being strong. After all, even in 4e, the system where the axiom was that every +1 mattered, buffs like +2 to hit for a round were generally footnotes and relatively ignored.
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I need to see Alien Archive and/or actual play to respond to this further. I currently lack sufficient data to contest those numbersThe envoy can spend resolve if necessary to ensure the feint, but she shouldn't have too much trouble making it stick assuming Bluff for inspiration, but she came out quite a bit ahead there (1.84 vs 1.4) and would still be ahead even if we said she had a 50/50 chance to fail to feint (which is definitely overestimaing) and didn't want to spend resolve (still ahead 1.54 vs 1.4). I agree that stunning shot is hard to directly compare to buffs; buffs are more reliable and stunning shot is more powerful if it sticks. A larger group is going to help the envoy even more (in a 6 player game, the envoy will likely be able to nearly double the operative in damage + damage from buffs/debuffs, since you get 3.04 vs 1.61 with a single extra big hitter, but you'll probably have several other support or casters in a big group).Moreover, your math didn't include the chance to feint in any way or form, thus skewing it in favour of Envoy.
Moreover, your math assumes both the Soldier and the Solarian can triple-attack to specifically make the math as much in favour of each point of attack bonus as possible, implying levels in excess of 13. At that point, the Operative can use things like Stunning Shot, which are far from directly comparable with the buffs Envoy gives.
I appreciate it :)
And I'm certainly not going to say that the operative is doing poorly there either. It's my baby of the two. In fact both of them are doing more damage than adding a third soldier or solarian to the mix (which is 1.2 compared to 1.4 operative or 1.84 solarian), following a design goal of encouraging mixed groups that synergize well. Having seen this exact group in practice, the team that has both of those classes together is really effective! And as to extra move actions, I had the same thought as you did which was one thing that led me to underestimate Hurry, but then in actual play, it kept leading to things like opening or closing doors, activating useful move action abilities (of which Starfinder has more than PF), or one of the group's favorites: full attack spring attack when combined with haste.
Could we please just get back to the substantive issues about the game, and forget all this other stuff, please? If you want to have a conversation about disappointment or whatever, that's fine, but please either do it on another thread or privately?
Some of us would like to read what others think about the game.
My group's probably not going to be playing Starfinder for a few months yet (we've got a Pathfinder campaign to wrap up), but there are lots of character concepts I want to try.
I've found a lot of the classes really "inspiring". Each read through gives me ideas for new character concepts, and it's neat seeing just how different two characters of the same class can potentially be.
I was sure I'd be more of a fan of the Technomancer as far as casters go, but once again I end up on the side of divine magic. I can't wait to play my Corporate Biomancer Xenodruid. Not surprised to hear Mark Seifter had a hand in its design, he's been behind a lot of my favorite options of late.
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Well don't forget,this game specifically is trying to avoid having everyone buff high and get confused by 4 or 5 floating modifiers. Plus iterative attacks dont have minuses, making the +2 or -2 a bigger deal. Haven't seen the envoy yet, but that might be a factor.
Also, from what you've said, getting clever fwinter and get em means by around level 2 or 3 that's essentially a +3 to hit when used together (if they can be)
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I think there is a lot of disappointment in the Solarion as it's such an amazing idea for a class and the implementation is you could say mixed.
There are a lot of annoying choices in the class, not choices that are hard because both options are good, but a choice you need to make to avoid a mechanical problem.
Solar Weapon vs Solar Armor is as it stands not much of a choice. The weapon kinda bobs along being in the same league as a one handed advanced melee weapon so long as you have the appropriate crystals and slightly worse than an equivalent two handed weapon. Whereas armor is a straight buff to light or powered armor and offers some valuable resistances.
Solar Weapon is I suppose is summonable while captured, but man, how many sessions of your career do you plan to stay captured and stripped of all gear? It's not really much of a choice.
Stellar Revelations are another of these annoying choices. If I want to be full melee I mostly want the Photon revelations, but if I want to use zenith powers I'm gambling on whether fights will be 3 rounds on average or 4 rounds on average or do I start picking up utility/spell-like Graviton powers. Let's say I pick up Gravity boost.
Now Gravity Boost is a great example of an amazing concept, it lets you alter your personal experience of gravity. Gives you a small bonus to athletics, helps out with falling damage and gives you a very limited version of spider climb. The issue is falling and climbing often have a gear solution in Starfinder and the power doesn't dramatically increase in effectiveness as you level. So it'll get outmoded by gear as you level and is a filler choice to keep your zenith powers from needing an extra round to activate.
It's not a nice choice to have to make, you don't feel spoilt for choice, you feel like you are making the least bad choice you can.
Then there is the action economy, ugh. You have a lot of buffs you can activate and they all take move or standard actions and a class focus on getting into melee and getting work done. These two things work against each other, you want to be full attacking as the Solarion but your buffs require set up. So again, choices that act against each other.
You can pick up a variety of spell like debuffs to use a Graviton build, but they aren't devastating, aren't really high save DC and again act against the focus of getting into melee.
It's a bit like being a Magus and casting detonate every turn, you can do it, but it's rarely optimal.
It's a shame as Soldier looks great, tons of different builds and approaches and two Soldiers could be very different in approach.
What's the fluff behind the Envoys ability to improve the group? As in, the Bard does it through inspiring music. What's the Envoy doing?
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I think you'd be better off looking forward to the delivery of your book and reading it to get your own impression and make your own judgments, instead of relying on the disparaging posts of a single user who has been going out of their way to see the rules through a negative lens since before they even received their PDF.I think that's because the stuff the OP is positive about, there's not a lot of disagreement that it's good stuff.
My personal buyer's remorse is largely due to a) not being too interested in the stuff that is generally agreed to be good, and b) the stuff which the OP flags as bad, and which upon reading I can't really find room to disagree, *is* generally what I was looking forward to, along with other bits I'm reading being of the 'if I'd known this was the case with this game I wouldn't have been interested to start with' variety... yeah, that's the risk with preorders, I know, won't make that mistake again here, and if the hardcopy gets lost in the post I'll consider it a blessing.
Now now, the op does use really hyperbolic word choices at times, but they do have posted positive stuff too. I don't think discrediting their opinion is really fair either.
What's the fluff behind the Envoys ability to improve the group? As in, the Bard does it through inspiring music. What's the Envoy doing?
Cool cyberpunk haircut.
What's the fluff behind the Envoys ability to improve the group? As in, the Bard does it through inspiring music. What's the Envoy doing?
Abilities like Get 'Em have no fluff descriptions attached. You're supposed to come up with your own.
I'm pretty sure that you can do all your attacks with your single handed sword. (And not use your pistol in your Full Attack. You just keep it at the ready for easy shooting when someone runs away.)*EDIT:* Turns out I was being too generous due to misreading.
It's even worse.
You get 0 benefit if comboing pistol and sword. All attacks have to be melee.
Yes you can. Which is still strictly worse than being able to choose which weapon to make the attack with.
One attack with pistol, one attack with melee getting the flashing strikes bonus (as I had misread as being the case) is inarguably better than one attack with pistol, one attack with melee, neither getting the bonus (which is actually the case).
Solar Weapon vs Solar Armor is as it stands not much of a choice. The weapon kinda bobs along being in the same league as a one handed advanced melee weapon so long as you have the appropriate crystals and slightly worse than an equivalent two handed weapon. Whereas armor is a straight buff to light or powered armor and offers some valuable resistances.
I'm having a hard time grasping this as a complaint. In the same league is... good. [And not outclassing is good for everyone else] Compare to pathfinder, where the 'innate weapon' classes (monk and warpriest) have to wait until double digit class levels until they can compare to the better weapons that can just be picked up in a shop... at level 1.
Its also a useful thing beyond 'stripped and captured.' Having a functional weapon option when you're out in civilized places can be useful on a recurring basis. I can see parties often in places that will pass on pistols and blades, but heavy kit is going to locked up or left in the ship.
Let me get this across:
Due to reliance on boost stones, Solarian Weapon gives 0 net benefit outside of extremely situational circumstances.
Boost Stones to keep up with normal weapons cost as much or even sometimes more than normal weapons in the first place. It's complete nonsense of a trade.
I'm having a hard time grasping this as a complaint. In the same league is... good. [And not outclassing is good for everyone else] Compare to pathfinder, where the 'innate weapon' classes (monk and warpriest) have to wait until double digit class levels until they can compare to the better weapons that just be picked up in a shop... at level 1.
Solar Weapon vs Solar Armor is as it stands not much of a choice. The weapon kinda bobs along being in the same league as a one handed advanced melee weapon so long as you have the appropriate crystals and slightly worse than an equivalent two handed weapon. Whereas armor is a straight buff to light or powered armor and offers some valuable resistances.
I think the complaint is down to it being a trap option. If you'll always be better off using the solar armour and a regular weapon, anyone who takes a look at the class and thinks 'weapon made of a piece of a star! Or a black hole! That sounds awesome!' is going to be worse off than someone who takes the other route - Mash explained the dislike for such traps.
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By the way, I really resent the usage of the word "trap" as displayed here, because it implies a malicious intent on the side of the designers, and I think that's highly disrespectful.
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While there are some great builds with the solar armor, melee solarians don't generally have really high Dex, so a typical melee build with heavy armor and a solar weapon is going to wind up with more AC than the same character with light armor and solar armor. Unlike in PF where armor proficiency feats weren't that great for the most part, Heavy Armor Proficiency is excellent in SF, and I'd recommend most characters who aren't soldiers or operatives to at least add it on the list they're considering taking.
While there are some great builds with the solar armor, melee solarians don't generally have really high Dex, so a typical melee build with heavy armor and a solar weapon is going to wind up with more AC than the same character with light armor and solar armor. Unlike in PF where armor proficiency feats weren't that great for the most part, Heavy Armor Proficiency is excellent in SF, and I'd recommend most characters who aren't soldiers or operatives to at least add it on the list they're considering taking.
Boost Stones to keep up on par with regular weapons cost as much as said regular weapons. Solar Weapon is thus, effectively, a non-feature mechanically speaking - just a fluff trinket.
Solar Armour at least lets you has almost the same AC as heavy armour while enjoying the mobility of light armour, which is at least something unique.
