Are you forgetting the base armor that drones get? A level 20 combat drone has ACs of 32/35. A flight drone is 35/35. A level 20 PC is going to be in the 39-41 range.Mechanic drones seem to have insanely low AC - they can't wear armour and their AC doesn't really scale otherwise.
At high levels they will be something like 20 points behind everyone else. It's silly.
Oh, I missed that. My apologies.
The rules for power armour seem pretty great and I like them a lot.
They are clean, simple, and nice.
The relative scarcity of power armour sets in the CRB is a bit sad, but understandable, and it's something I very much expect future books to expand upon.
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Well, it's not *RIFTS*, is it?
Well, it's not *RIFTS*, is it?
I know nothing about RIFTS and can't comment.
Envoy """capstone""" is hilariously bad.
It increases the average value of your inspiration dice by 0.5 and pretty much nothing else...
This is the most underwhelming class capstone I've ever seen in my life.
The only soldier I really want to play is Power Armored Armor Storm style Soldier. Which isn't really core viable as you said.The rules for power armour seem pretty great and I like them a lot.
They are clean, simple, and nice.
The relative scarcity of power armour sets in the CRB is a bit sad, but understandable, and it's something I very much expect future books to expand upon.
To be fair, I think it's viable. You get a great deal of "fake" strength to throw around with power armour while having 10 or even 8 "real" strength, which opens up your pointbuy for crazy stuff. Battleglove scaling isn't stellar, but you get class features somewhat compensating for it. I want to try playing as one, but I think it can work well even with only existing content.
That's also not the main portion of the capstone, that's the secondary effect. The main capstone is the Resolve cost reduction to an improvisation.Envoy """capstone""" is hilariously bad.
It increases the average value of your inspiration dice by 0.5 and pretty much nothing else...
This is the most underwhelming class capstone I've ever seen in my life.
For only one improvisation, which is really bad. Especially as there are no improvisations whatsoever after level 8, so you can't even choose something cool and high level for it.
]Solarion discussionIt's free.
Seems like a significant advantage in a cash strapped campaign, or somewhere out on the frontier where there isn't a convenient shop to upgrade your weapons.
Also, space rust monsters.
You still need boost stones for Solarian weapons to be remotely catching up with normal weapons, which is neither free nor easily available without convenient shops.
Moreover, unless you fight a lot of Solarian enemies, conventional weapons will be far more common in loot than boost stones, making this a strike against Solarian.
More on themes: I feel like Icon is the most powerful of the themes. While it doesn't give many straight up mechanical bonuses, the fluff benefits it gives are virtually reality-bending.That would depend on the situation. I don't think being famous would be very useful exploring a forgotten ruin on an uninhabited jungle planet.
And should you find yourself on the run from the law being universally recognised could be a serious drawback.
Fair enough. I've been thinking in terms of a more generic campaign.
Its not really bad. Don't Quit is a major example. It sucks without spending a resolve point and is strong when using one.For only one improvisation, which is really bad. Especially as there are no improvisations whatsoever after level 8, so you can't even choose something cool and high level for it.That's also not the main portion of the capstone, that's the secondary effect. The main capstone is the Resolve cost reduction to an improvisation.Envoy """capstone""" is hilariously bad.
It increases the average value of your inspiration dice by 0.5 and pretty much nothing else...
This is the most underwhelming class capstone I've ever seen in my life.
It's an extremely situational ability. At the absolute most, you'll use it what, 3-4 times a day? Keep in mind that you're looking at about 20 resolve points total at level 20.
I think you are underestimating what a Starfinder combat day is going to be like. And I wouldn't call an ability to remove basically every non poison/disease/curse condition extremely situational. And saving 3-4 resolve points is a big deal.It's an extremely situational ability. At the absolute most, you'll use it what, 3-4 times a day? Keep in mind that you're looking at about 20 resolve points total at level 20.Its not really bad. Don't Quit is a major example. It sucks without spending a resolve point and is strong when using one.For only one improvisation, which is really bad. Especially as there are no improvisations whatsoever after level 8, so you can't even choose something cool and high level for it.That's also not the main portion of the capstone, that's the secondary effect. The main capstone is the Resolve cost reduction to an improvisation.Envoy """capstone""" is hilariously bad.
It increases the average value of your inspiration dice by 0.5 and pretty much nothing else...
This is the most underwhelming class capstone I've ever seen in my life.
You're exaggerating what the ability does. It removes one condition of your choice, at the opportunity cost of a standard action, meaning you can't really do anything else that turn, which is quite the opportunity cost.
You're exaggerating what the ability does. It removes one condition of your choice, at the opportunity cost of a standard action, meaning you can't really do anything else that turn, which is quite the opportunity cost.I think you are underestimating what a Starfinder combat day is going to be like. And I wouldn't call an ability to remove basically every non poison/disease/curse condition extremely situational. And saving 3-4 resolve points is a big deal.It's an extremely situational ability. At the absolute most, you'll use it what, 3-4 times a day? Keep in mind that you're looking at about 20 resolve points total at level 20.Its not really bad. Don't Quit is a major example. It sucks without spending a resolve point and is strong when using one.For only one improvisation, which is really bad. Especially as there are no improvisations whatsoever after level 8, so you can't even choose something cool and high level for it.That's also not the main portion of the capstone, that's the secondary effect. The main capstone is the Resolve cost reduction to an improvisation.Envoy """capstone""" is hilariously bad.
It increases the average value of your inspiration dice by 0.5 and pretty much nothing else...
This is the most underwhelming class capstone I've ever seen in my life.And the envoy spending a standard action to remove a multi-turn stun/paralysis/fear effect from the soldier for example is a huge net win for the action economy.
Improved Hurry is another good option for certain playstyles, if someone wants to play pure support.
Being an improved hurry monkey is strictly worse mechanically than just being another full attacker on the table.
Honestly, the capstone would be worth it if it applied to all improvisations. As is, it just does pitifully little and is the weakest of all capstones.Anyway, the capstone is far from the biggest problem of envoy.
The rules for power armour seem pretty great and I like them a lot.
They are clean, simple, and nice.
The relative scarcity of power armour sets in the CRB is a bit sad, but understandable, and it's something I very much expect future books to expand upon.
Have you been able to figure out how mounting weapons on power armor is supposed to work? It seems awfully vague, though I might be missing something, or overthinking it.
Have you been able to figure out how mounting weapons on power armor is supposed to work? It seems awfully vague, though I might be missing something, or overthinking it.The rules for power armour seem pretty great and I like them a lot.
They are clean, simple, and nice.
The relative scarcity of power armour sets in the CRB is a bit sad, but understandable, and it's something I very much expect future books to expand upon.
I think you just have a set number of slots and pick what weapons to install in those slots?
By the way, did anyone see rules on how much bulk a character is? I can't find it anywhere, and I'm curious how difficult is it to carry people.
I think you just have a set number of slots and pick what weapons to install in those slots?Have you been able to figure out how mounting weapons on power armor is supposed to work? It seems awfully vague, though I might be missing something, or overthinking it.The rules for power armour seem pretty great and I like them a lot.
They are clean, simple, and nice.
The relative scarcity of power armour sets in the CRB is a bit sad, but understandable, and it's something I very much expect future books to expand upon.
Maybe I am just overthinking it. So as written, any ranged weapon can go in a weapon slot (small arms, long arms, and heavy weapons). I wouldn't think it would take any hands to operate a weapon mounted on power armor, but I could see the argument being made.
I guess the fact that it's just the one sentence "Ranged weapons can be installed in most powered armor" making up the entirety of the mechanic that makes me cautious. Normally something like that has a little more explanation, or there's a more complete explanation hiding in another section.
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By the way, did anyone see rules on how much bulk a character is? I can't find it anywhere, and I'm curious how difficult is it to carry people.
There's an "Estimating Bulk" blurb in the carrying capacity section. For an unknown item (like a character) every 10 pounds is 1 bulk.
By the way, did anyone see rules on how much bulk a character is? I can't find it anywhere, and I'm curious how difficult is it to carry people.There's an "Estimating Bulk" blurb in the carrying capacity section. For an unknown item (like a character) every 10 pounds is 1 bulk.
Thanks.
Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.By endless stream you mean this thread or another thread as well? : D I mean, if you just mean this thread, then you are basically being like "wait, so the hype isn't true and it isn't second coming of RPG Messiah?", if you mean other threads as well, I want links too because I'm bored of waiting my subscriptions to ship
This thread, other threads, conversations and screenshots and excerpts from people who already have the pdf, statements from designers.
It's pretty broad-spectrum negativity as a result of being pretty excited for the system only to see it fall to the endemic pathfinder problem; good ideas, execution so poor as to appear deliberately so.
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Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.By endless stream you mean this thread or another thread as well? : D I mean, if you just mean this thread, then you are basically being like "wait, so the hype isn't true and it isn't second coming of RPG Messiah?", if you mean other threads as well, I want links too because I'm bored of waiting my subscriptions to shipThis thread, other threads, conversations and screenshots and excerpts from people who already have the pdf, statements from designers.
It's pretty broad-spectrum negativity as a result of being pretty excited for the system only to see it fall to the endemic pathfinder problem; good ideas, execution so poor as to appear deliberately so.
Honestly, my main disappointments with the system are the following:
1. Envoy2. Solarian
3. Sniper Rifles (nearly completely useless, don't work well with the thematic Sniper class)
4. TWF/MWF (only +1 to attack? seriously? that's worse than weapon focus while demanding twice the cost investment into weapons)
5. Even in a sci-fi game, Paizo felt the need to make a point that some things can only be done remotely well with magic and no mundane means can ever compete. Case in point - Healing Serums are magic and all non-magic means of healing are absolutely awful.
6. Exocortex.
As long as you ignore the above 6, the system is pretty good and overall seems better than pathfinder.
How awful Sniper Rifles are is truly baffling.
They can't full attack, but deal less damage per shot than Longarms, which can full attack, all while requiring a less common weapon proficiency than Longarms.
If that wasn't enough, the class support for Sniper Rifles makes even less sense:
The Soldier Combat Style designed for Sniper Rifles (Sharpshoot) has half its' features work only on full attacks, which Sniper Rifles CAN'T do, meaning the Combat Style meant for Sniper Rifles doesn't actually work with Sniper Rifles.
Operative support is even worse - you never get any way to add Trick Attack damage to them, so you're stuck with a really bad parody of a Longarm to which you can't even add most of your class features. To rub salt in the wound, you can only knock people unconscious with it at high levels, but not actually kill them. All while you get far more damage out of Small Arms thanks to your class features actually working with them.
The only advantage Sniper Rifles get for all this nonsense is high range, which is extremely situational, and likely will never come up in an AP because AP's are written with the intent to allow everyone, including melee characters, to participate in all important action.
To make the whole ordeal even more humiliating, unless you spend a move action to aim, Sniper Rifles typically have lower range than Longarms.
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Please note: Starfinder is not a video game and there's more to life than sniper rifles.
Just saying. :-)
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Please note: Starfinder is not a video game and there's more to life than sniper rifles.
Just saying. :-)
No but a weapon not actually working with the class abilities that are supposed to work with them and not actually having any notable purpose is a sign of an issue that could do with correction.
I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by 'It's not a video game'. That seems a bit belaboring the obvious/not really to have much meaning.
Honestly, my main disappointments with the system are the following:
1. Envoy
2. Solarian
3. Sniper Rifles (nearly completely useless, don't work well with the thematic Sniper class)
4. TWF/MWF (only +1 to attack? seriously? that's worse than weapon focus while demanding twice the cost investment into weapons)
5. Even in a sci-fi game, Paizo felt the need to make a point that some things can only be done remotely well with magic and no mundane means can ever compete. Case in point - Healing Serums are magic and all non-magic means of healing are absolutely awful.
6. Exocortex.As long as you ignore the above 6, the system is pretty good and overall seems better than pathfinder.
One through five were my biggest concerns. The first four keyed into what my players like completely and hearing what I am hearing is disheartening.
Number 5 is the biggest killer, though. I was hoping for an equal but different situation between magic and technology, but... eh.
Are you playing an android, yet worrying about your dumped Charisma 8 and your -2 penalty to Sense Motive checks? Fret not, for a wrist-mounted computer can handle your social needs!
For (250 * 1.3 + 10) = 335 credits, you can purchase a tier 2 computer with negligible bulk, an artificial personality, and an alarm for security. This computer can go on your wrist, and it has an artificial personality with Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Intimidate +4, and Sense Motive +4, so you can delegate most of your social challenges to it.
Considering that starting wealth is 1,000 credits, this seems like a fair deal for skills' sake.
Why talk and read people yourself when you can have your wrist-mounted, holographic vocaloid do the talking and people-reading for you? Of course it will lag behind someone placing ranks in class-skilled social skills, but sometimes, you cannot afford that.
Is this even rules-legal?
I hope so!
@Mashallah and/or @Calth
I'm looking to port Path of War into Starfinder when I get the CRB. based on what you've seen so far what are your thoughts on potential balancing issues that are likely to come up?
I figure the bonus damage from maneuvers will have to be heavily tweaked based on the damage dice of higher end weapons. but beyond that are there any things I should be on the look out for when I get the book?
@Mashallah and/or @CalthI'm looking to port Path of War into Starfinder when I get the CRB. based on what you've seen so far what are your thoughts on potential balancing issues that are likely to come up?
I figure the bonus damage from maneuvers will have to be heavily tweaked based on the damage dice of higher end weapons. but beyond that are there any things I should be on the look out for when I get the book?
Instead of getting more attacks like in Pathfinder, people generally get more damage per hit in Starfinder. As this would carry over to Martial Strikes, it would boost them quite a bit.
On the other hand, the lack of over-reliance on MORE ATTACKS in the system means Path of War will be easier to balance overall and should generally work better than in Pathfinder after you port it IMO, you just need to adjust numbers for the new math.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To make the whole ordeal even more humiliating, unless you spend a move action to aim, Sniper Rifles typically have lower range than Longarms.
That's how sniper rifles should work. This isn't Call of Duty. "360 no scope!"
I used to have the same thought process that everything is underpowered because I couldn't see how it would be implemented. This thread is making want the book more.
@Mashallah and/or @CalthI'm looking to port Path of War into Starfinder when I get the CRB. based on what you've seen so far what are your thoughts on potential balancing issues that are likely to come up?
I figure the bonus damage from maneuvers will have to be heavily tweaked based on the damage dice of higher end weapons. but beyond that are there any things I should be on the look out for when I get the book?
Instead of getting more attacks like in Pathfinder, people generally get more damage per hit in Starfinder. As this would carry over to Martial Strikes, it would boost them quite a bit.
On the other hand, the lack of over-reliance on MORE ATTACKS in the system means Path of War will be easier to balance overall and should generally work better than in Pathfinder after you port it IMO, you just need to adjust numbers for the new math.
Cool thanks, yeah that's what I figured after hearing a bunch of stuff
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Sniper rifles not having hardly any support strikes me as a little better in the long run than sniper rifles having a soldier specialization. We're more likely to get some material focusing on sniper rifles in the future.
Sniper operative is an easy homebrew. Trick attack is perception with +4, gets trick attack debuffs on sniper attacks from level 1 (normally available at 6th), and once per day can apply full trick attack damage on a snipe as their level 11 ability. They spend their money on a good sniper rifle, and use trick attack to buff their knife or small arm in closer combat.
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To make the whole ordeal even more humiliating, unless you spend a move action to aim, Sniper Rifles typically have lower range than Longarms.That's how sniper rifles should work. This isn't Call of Duty. "360 no scope!"
I used to have the same thought process that everything is underpowered because I couldn't see how it would be implemented. This thread is making want the book more.
Classy little dig at people with valid complaints.
"You just haven't thought about it!"The thing about sniper rifles not working if you don't take time to aim being 'how it should work' is a nonsense when taken alongside everything else that lets them down.
Senior Developer, Starfinder Team
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Ysoki cheek pouches seem to be of comically disproportionate size. They are big enough to hold a tactical doshko, the functional equivalent of a greataxe, in them now that I noticed a tactical doshko is 1 bulk.
Assuming you can convince your GM that an unwieldy two-handed weapon fits into 1 cubic foot, of course.
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I must admit I'm surprised that class functions conflict in the way stated above. It is hard enough to keep bonus types straight in a normal game of Pathfinder, I do not look forward to telling someone that the Skill Focus they get as part of their class doesn't stack with something else that class gives.
That said, it seems to me a lot of these reactions seem overly negative.
It would be really nice to hear what class is best in a variety of roles and why. Are there any surprises?
To start with, who is the best at Monster ID?
Best in each of the starship roles: Pilot, Gunner, Science Officer, Engineer, Captain?
How hard is it to have a character able to fulfill two different roles, and does it require a theme to be good at one of those roles?
Who is the best at deactivating traps? I would guess it is operative given the description, but are there any surprises here?
What sort of options do the spell casters have for battlefield control? Blasting? Just plain weird stuff?
I'm very annoyed by Ioun Aeon Stones.
Sometimes, they do the same thing as in Pathfinder
Sometimes, they do an entirely different thing from Pathfinder
Starfinder Clear Spindle functions identically to Pathfinder Clear Spindle. Same for Iridescent Spindle.
But Starfinder Pearly White Spindle functions identically to Pathfinder Orange Prism, having nothing to do with Pathfinder's Pearly White Spindle.
This will cause so much confusion at tables and I see absolutely no reason for this change.
It's not new (It was in pathfinder too) but Profession seems to have basically no scaling.
2x Your roll becomes rapidly less and less valuable as you level and your WBL increases. Between 1 and 20 your earnings would just over double, as the amount that is worth is reduced to a smaller and smaller % of your WBL. To the degree at level 20 you are producing a fraction of a single percent.
There likely should have been some '% of WBL' factoring there or a non-linear scaling.
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Sniper Rifles become great long range burst weapons if you have either the ability to make a full attack as a standard action, or if you have the ability to make a move action and full attack in the same round. Such as Haste.
Won't help. All Sniper Rifles without exception have the Unwieldy property, which is worded as follows:
"You can't use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can't attack with it more than once per round, and you can't use it to make an Attack of Opportunity."
Sniper Rifles become great long range burst weapons if you have either the ability to make a full attack as a standard action, or if you have the ability to make a move action and full attack in the same round. Such as Haste.
You can't full attack with a sniper rifle, unless there's a rule I've missed that makes a sniper rifle attack function as a full attack.
I must admit I'm surprised that class functions conflict in the way stated above. It is hard enough to keep bonus types straight in a normal game of Pathfinder, I do not look forward to telling someone that the Skill Focus they get as part of their class doesn't stack with something else that class gives.
That said, it seems to me a lot of these reactions seem overly negative.
It would be really nice to hear what class is best in a variety of roles and why. Are there any surprises?
To start with, who is the best at Monster ID?
Best in each of the starship roles: Pilot, Gunner, Science Officer, Engineer, Captain?
How hard is it to have a character able to fulfill two different roles, and does it require a theme to be good at one of those roles?
Who is the best at deactivating traps? I would guess it is operative given the description, but are there any surprises here?
What sort of options do the spell casters have for battlefield control? Blasting? Just plain weird stuff?
Operative is by far the most versatile non-caster class and can fill virtually all of those roles.
Out of casters, Technomancer is probably more versatile, but Mystics are better at specialising in stuff.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what this something about torture related mystic ability associated with Zon-Kuthon and Devourer also being associated with Iomedae?
Like, is that a typo, or is Paizo seriously going with "LG and Torture goes together!"? :D
Iomedae granted power to that LN inquisitor in Kenabres who tortured people looking for demonic infiltrators.
The Redemption Engine featured rogue LG angels who stole evil souls and forcefully turned them into angels. The various empyreal lords maintained plausible deniability, neither condemning nor assisting.
Inflicting pain and spiritual kidnap is apparently ok for LG as long as it's in the service of good or fighting the really bad evils.
Singing kumbaya or being a peacenik hippie is more a NG or CG thing, tbh, and in a world of objective morality you can push the limits to find out where they are. There's no point in arguing about whether you think something should be evil or good, it just is. If you can torture potential demons with a certain error rate and still not slip to evil, you don't have to worry about morality, only practicality and usefulness.
I applaud Iomedae for her embrace of all eggs in the war for better omelets.