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I was actually thinking about straight bonuses, so I agree it's valid suggestion. I'm wondering if the whip of spiders spell lets you add STR to damage when wielding it?
For 5K the Nimble Whip could be interesting if it would be an actual whip and not a scorpion whip! :P (bards don't have proficiency with scorpion whip...)
Probably not exactly what you are looking for, but I have found that the straight bonuses work very well. The main benefit I've seen is the ability to overcome damage resistance when you need to do damage/can't trip or disarm, since it's not possible (to my knowledge) to get a silver/cold iron/adamantine whip. Plus, the straight bonuses still add to your CMB for both trip and disarm
Scorpion whips can have metal in them. but require an extra proficiency you can pick up with an Ioun Stone.
Cruel is a nice one to pair with Enforcer feat for a -4.
But the best way I know to land CMs on a whip user is True Strike. A magus can abuse Truestrike.
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As a slashing weapon, it qualifies for vorpal. Maybe not the most effective choice, but loads of fun.
LOL!
You bring an interesting point about slashing: keen whip, anyone? as an arcane duelist I'll have a pick to add weapon properties to my whip among the following: defending, distance, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, shocking burst, seeking, speed, or wounding.
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I think a flat bonus is probably the best bet, unless you are finessing the whip. In that case, Agile.
Menacing is pretty good, but requires you to be adjacent, not just threatening (assuming you have/eventually will take Improved Whip Mastery).
For a Magus, I like Blade Lash. It's half the bonus of True Strike, sure, but +10 is usually enough on top of all your other bonuses, and on top of that it grants a free trip attack up to 20 feet away as part of the spell. My trip build, wand wielding, Kapenia Dancer Magus has a wand of Blade Lash and a Wand of True Strike. She's never needed to use the wand of True Strike, even for things with multiple legs. Unfortunately, Blade Lash is not on the Bard list, but if you've got a good UMD, it would work, since you would still get to attempt the trip in the round you activate the wand. It doesn't affect disarming, unfortunately.
Cruel is a nice one to pair with Enforcer feat for a -4.O_O
Holy Cannoli Batman! That's insane!
Like Thrune, my whip magus used Wand Wielder but went Kensai for exotic weapon proficiency. (Scorpion whip)
Enforcer + cruel + Rime Frostbite is straight Brutal Debuffing of an enemy and makes most wish they were dead.
Then Truestrike + Combat Maneuver is also good debuffing. When a Fighter has Weapon Focus, Specialization, and related feats...you take the weapon the DPR just plummets as most enemies do not carry around lots of multiple weapons. Nothing like forcing an unprepared fighter to use his fists.
You can add a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone + Wayfinder and get +1 AC, +2 CMB & CMD.
Fortuitous.
When you get an AoO, this property lets you get a second one in at BAB-5. 1/round. As in- if the enemy crosses your threatened area, you can get in a mini full attack.
This is great for whip users, since you can pull off regular reach stuff once you get improved whip mastery.
Useful for getting more options to trip or strike as you please. If I remember correctly... this could be used to help a cruel weapon build (cruel weapons need you to strike a creature that is afraid; the usual enforcer or cornugon smash builds means you need the first hit to scare, and then you need a second hit to use the cruel property).
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Multiround touch spells like frostbite aren't as good as they used to be for the magus after this FAQ.
You can't discharge multiple charges as part of a full attack, it takes a standard action to do so.
Rime FrostbiteO_O ... ... .... ...... O_O
TEACH ME!!!!
Sure
RIme Spell is a meta magic to put on Cold spells. The Magus Gets both Frostbite and Frigid Touch as good targets for the Meta Magic. What Rime does is it Entangles the target if they took any cold damage from the spell.
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
-4 to dex= -2 to AC, Reflexes and CMD
Frostbite will add damage but also the Fatigued Status.
A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
another -2 to dex which is -1 to AC, Reflexes and CMD
Frigid Touch adds Staggered Condition
A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.
THis debuffs the action economy which is brutal.
Now enforcer
Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
enforcer adds Shaken condition
A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
The Cruel enchantment adds the Sickened condition to a shaken creature.
The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
So in a single round, you can basically give a target:
-4 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.-2 weapon damage rolls
Entangled condition
and either Frostbite or Frigid touch Status effect (pick for best in the situation.)
Basically, it is crazy debuff. Nice since Cruel kicks in after the Demorilize and the Magus gets 2 attacks out the gate with spellcombat/Spellstrike.
I hope that helped bring all of it into focus for you.
Remember Staggard + Trip really hurts an enemy combatant.
Multiround touch spells like frostbite aren't as good as they used to be for the magus after this FAQ.
You can't discharge multiple charges as part of a full attack, it takes a standard action to do so.
Not a set back really since you just need cold damage on the debuff builds to hit once.
What you want is the Dueling Weapon proficiency from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Then just add as many enhancement bonuses to your weapon as possible.
The Dueling property gives your weapon a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus when doing certain maneuvers. The luck bonus stacks with the enhancement bonus.
So, take a +1 Dueling whip. Use the arcane duelist's Bladethirst ability to pump the weapon up to a +2. The Dueling property now gives it a +4 luck bonus to most maneuvers. For a total of +6.
By the time you are ninth level, you will be able to afford a +2 Dueling weapon. The Bladethirst ability will stack on 2 more, making it a +4 weapon with a +8 luck bonus to maneuvers.
Have fun!!
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Not a set back really since you just need cold damage on the debuff builds to hit once.Multiround touch spells like frostbite aren't as good as they used to be for the magus after this FAQ.
You can't discharge multiple charges as part of a full attack, it takes a standard action to do so.
That FAQ doesn't say what you think it says. It says that you can't use a "touch attack" more than once a round. You're not using a touch attack when you attack with a natural weapon or Spellstrike. Nothing changed for those as far as I can tell. It's just clarifying you can't do something like: Touch attack, claw, bite. You have to do: claw (deliver spell), claw, bite, and don't get to roll against touch AC. If you do want to make a touch attack (against touch AC), then it's a standard action.
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What you want is the Dueling Weapon proficiency from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Then just add as many enhancement bonuses to your weapon as possible.
The Dueling property gives your weapon a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus when doing certain maneuvers. The luck bonus stacks with the enhancement bonus.
So, take a +1 Dueling whip. Use the arcane duelist's Bladethirst ability to pump the weapon up to a +2. The Dueling property now gives it a +4 luck bonus to most maneuvers. For a total of +6.
By the time you are ninth level, you will be able to afford a +2 Dueling weapon. The Bladethirst ability will stack on 2 more, making it a +4 weapon with a +8 luck bonus to maneuvers.
Have fun!!
Yeah, this. I always forget about that one.
That FAQ doesn't say what you think it says. It says that you can't use a "touch attack" more than once a round. You're not using a touch attack when you attack with a natural weapon or Spellstrike. Nothing changed for those as far as I can tell. It's just clarifying you can't do something like: Touch attack, claw, bite. You have to do: claw (deliver spell), claw, bite, and don't get to roll against touch AC. If you do want to make a touch attack (against touch AC), then it's a standard action.Not a set back really since you just need cold damage on the debuff builds to hit once.Multiround touch spells like frostbite aren't as good as they used to be for the magus after this FAQ.
You can't discharge multiple charges as part of a full attack, it takes a standard action to do so.
Again it still doesn't slow down the Debuff build either way since you clearly can and need to deliver it once for the effect. Plus if you're going for multiple targets each round just to neuter them while others clean up it hardly matters either. I personally love the Debuff build over the Nova builds because the effects they bring to the table.
Cruel
Price +1 bonus
Aura faint necromancy; CL 5th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
When the wielder strikes a creature that is frightened, shaken, or panicked with a cruel weapon, that creature becomes sickened for 1 round. When the wielder uses the weapon to knock unconscious or kill a creature, he gains 5 temporary hit points that last for 10 minutes.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cause fear, death knell; Cost +1 bonus
Stalking
Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate divination; CL 10th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
The longer the wielder of a stalking weapon studies a target, the more effective her strike. As a standard action, a character wielding a stalking weapon can command it to study a creature within 60 feet. The wielder must have line of effect and line of sight to that target. When the wielder attacks the studied creature, on a successful hit the stalking weapon deals +1d6 points of bonus damage per consecutive round spent studying a target, up to a number of bonus dice equal to the stalking weapon’s enhancement bonus. This bonus damage is precision damage and only applies to the first successful hit against that creature.
If the wielder attacks a creature other than the studied creature, commands the weapon to study a different creature, or ends her turn more than 60 feet from the studied creature, the weapon loses all bonus damage dice against the previously studied creature.
Anchoring
Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This special ability can only be added to a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. An anchoring weapon pins a target in place and prevents it from moving. As a swift action, the weapon can be fixed in place in a point in space, functioning as an immovable rod. This ability can also be used when the wielder hits a creature with a melee attack using an anchoring weapon. This anchors the target to the weapon, preventing it from moving away from the weapon. The target is not entangled or paralyzed; it simply cannot move from its location without first destroying the weapon or making a successful DC 30 Strength check as a full-round action to move with the weapon up to 10 feet. An anchoring weapon remains motionless and cannot be used to attack while it is anchoring a creature. An anchoring weapon has no effect on amorphous creatures, including elementals, oozes, and creatures in gaseous or liquid form. It also cannot anchor incorporeal creatures unless the weapon also has the ghost touch special ability.
I would seriously consider going Anchoring (immovable rod on a whip...), Cruel, and Stalking.
If you get combat reflexes and a high dex build, you'll get lots and lots of extra attacks because you threaten 15ft. That's an awful lot of Intimidate/Sicken attempts.
And if you do what Louise was talking about with Rime Magic, Frostbite and Frigid Touch, Anchoring/Cruel will be absolutely devastating. The only reason I advocate for Stalking is because whips suck at damage, and late game mobs will eat up all your damage with DR/-.
With high dex and combat reflexes, you'd essentially threaten a 30ft diameter with AOO's. Theoretically, you could sicken, stagger, entangle, shaken every enemy within 15 ft of you in a single round, and if one of them is getting a little out of hand, you can anchor him to your weapon; you get two attacks with spellstrike, and you get an AO any time your allies can provoke them with GBR, Trip, etc.
I can think of a lot of ways to use a 15ft immovable rod...
The only reason I advocate for Stalking is because whips suck at damage
My whip based character is a Warpriest of Calistria, which I definitely recommend. You get scaling damage dice with your level, so my whip is doing a d10 right now. Furthermore, with the Slashing Grace Feat and all of the potent, swift action buffs that Warpriests get (e.g. Divine Favor/Power), haste, and the ability to add weapon enhancements on the fly as a swift action, I can easily do 50-60 damage per round. It still definitely pales in comparison to what Fighters/Barbarians can do at level 10, but it still allows me to function reasonably well in combat when tripping isn't an option
Only a few classes can really pull off good Whip users.
Warpriest I feel has the Highest Damage potential for a Whip. SInce it has Flat bonuses as well as increasing the damage die.
Magus I feel has more utility through Combat Maneuvers and can land them more efficiently.
I have not tried a Fighter as of yet to make my determination on the class as a whip user but they do get Plenty of Feats and can Also get the Scaling weapon damage like a warpriest via Advanced Weapon Training.
I'm curious as to why this is the case. Obviously the ability to cast True Strike is a major player, but I don't see how Magus' are any better at combat manuevers than War Priests. Now, the ability to Spell Strike debuffing spells is definitely a benefit of Magus whip-users, as you guys have pointed out earlier in this threadMagus I feel has more utility through Combat Maneuvers and can land them more efficiently.
They can spike the bonus to the CM higher. Thus a Higher % of successful attempts. The Warpriest can stack it high enough but +18 for a 1st level spell kind of swings the favor into Magus direction.
I don't think the cruel weapon property kicks in the first time you hit a target.
Enforcer is triggered by damaging the target
Cruel is triggered by striking a frightened creature
I have a PC that uses Enforcer and has a Cruel weapon so I do like the combo, but I don't apply the sickened condition until the 2nd hit.
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And if you do what Louise was talking about with Rime Magic, Frostbite and Frigid Touch, Anchoring/Cruel will be absolutely devastating. The only reason I advocate for Stalking is because whips suck at damage, and late game mobs will eat up all your damage with DR/-.
If you're going to add a +2 enhancement to increase damage, just go for Holy. Unless your campaign features a lot of neutral enemies, it's going to apply much more often than Stalking. The standard action to study someone really makes Stalking ineffective unless you're able to study someone before combat begins. Spend a standard action to get +1d6 damage on one attack, or spend a standard action to attack (which hopefully with static bonuses is dealing more than 1d6 damage).
Cruel is nice, especially if you're demoralizing ahead of time through other means.
This line in Anchoring makes it less worthwhile for me: "An anchoring weapon remains motionless and cannot be used to attack while it is anchoring a creature." It's a +2 enhancement. That's very expensive for an ability that is going to remove your ability to attack with the whip when you use it. It's great for situations where you need to stop someone from running away, but once you use it, you'll have to switch to a different weapon. And, unlike grapple, entangle, pin, or other means of stopping movement, it doesn't impose any actual penalties to the target. So spell casters can still cast without concentration checks, martials don't suffer an AC or attack penalty. Granted, a spellcaster might be more likely to need to cast defensively, since they can't 5' away. But by the time you can afford a +1 Cruel, Anchoring whip, a lot of spell casters will have some way to get out of it. Dimension Door, for example. I'm not sure if Freedom of Movement would work. I think it would. Anyway, it strikes me as an enhancement that would be good for very specific circumstances. You're adventuring with two Rogues/Ninjas, so you can pin a target to a square to keep it from moving out of a flank. You need to capture someone or keep them from running off to alert others. A flying opponent that you need to keep low enough to attack. But in terms of actually taking out the average opponent, I think you're better off just hitting them for damage or tripping them to generate AoOs if they aren't flying/untrippable.
I don't think the cruel weapon property kicks in the first time you hit a target.
Enforcer is triggered by damaging the target
Cruel is triggered by striking a frightened creatureI have a PC that uses Enforcer and has a Cruel weapon so I do like the combo, but I don't apply the sickened condition until the 2nd hit.
You are correct with Magus you get 2 attacks via Spellstrike. The first hit typically is Rime spell + Enforcer debuffs. The 2nd attack triggers Cruel property.