Death Clutch and Regenerate


Rules Questions


I was looking at Death Clutch, which says (in part) that death can be averted by casting Regenerate on the character the next round. Problem: Regenerate has a casting time of 3 rounds. As nobody will have ever started casting Regenerate two rounds prior to someone else casting Death Clutch, this way to save the victim seems meaningless to me. Am I missing something? How would that work short of predicting the future or just happening to have a regenerate spell cast and ready to be discharged?

On an related note... any other suggestions for a high-level, evil cleric who wants to put a truculent underling in his place (without permanently killing him)? Trying to come up with something creative and a little flashy.


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SnowHeart wrote:

I was looking at Death Clutch, which says (in part) that death can be averted by casting Regenerate on the character the next round. Problem: Regenerate has a casting time of 3 rounds. As nobody will have ever started casting Regenerate two rounds prior to someone else casting Death Clutch, this way to save the victim seems meaningless to me. Am I missing something? How would that work short of predicting the future or just happening to have a regenerate spell cast and ready to be discharged?

On an related note... any other suggestions for a high-level, evil cleric who wants to put a truculent underling in his place (without permanently killing him)? Trying to come up with something creative and a little flashy.

Spell Completion items like scrolls and staves would be an option.


Hmm, thanks. A scroll could work well.


scroll wrote:
Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer)
wands(and staves) wrote:
casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)

Spell completion and spell trigger items do not reduce casting time. Custom magic item or consumable is the only way I know forward- Elixir or Oil of Regenerate?


Wouldn't a normal Ring of Regeneration work if already being worn by the target?

Grand Lodge

Quickned rod, wish or miracle could do it.


Wish or Miracle should work, but Quicken Spell doesn't work on spells that take more than 1 round to cast.


quicken spell wrote:
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.

Quicken spell doesn't work.


I believe this has actually come up before concerning regenerate I vaguely remember a Dev coming in to say that the text was also meant to cover the regenerate ability ... or maybe that it wasn't. It's all very foggy.

I think there may also have been mention of the author not realising that regenerate had a long casting time. Someone with strong google foo may be able to find it.


Spell-like abilities would also work, as they take only a standard action even if the spell they are replicating would take longer.


Saethori wrote:
Spell-like abilities would also work, as they take only a standard action even if the spell they are replicating would take longer.

It actually true. They take as long as the spell, as long as they say (if they do) or a standard action if they don't say and they aren't based on a spell.


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SnowHeart wrote:
Am I missing something? How would that work short of predicting the future or just happening to have a regenerate spell cast and ready to be discharged?

It wouldn't work. It's a poorly-written and fleshed out spell. They basically tried to do the Mola-Ram move from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and got the thematic description fine (it flies out whereas he sunk his hand in and pulled it out) but completely ignored all relevant and referenced spells, effects, and typical gameplay flow.

From not understanding how regenerate works and how long it takes to cast to not understanding how most healers will try cure and other healing first when a target is in negative hit points (thus wasting a round and healing resources, and if they do somehow succeed at knowing the death clutch spell then they'd know they had no time to actually cast regenerate anyway), to not comprehending that death clutch is a [death] effect and victims aren't able to be returned to life with raise dead or breath of life (it's clearly not written as an exception.)

Here's a similar topic on the subject:
Death Clutch, Regeneration, and You

You are just as well off creating your own spell that pulls a target's heart from his chest.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why is it that some of my most favorite spells are always decryed as being poorly written?

First rend body and now death clutch!


Ravingdork wrote:

Why is it that some of my most favorite spells are always decryed as being poorly written?

First rend body and now death clutch!

At least explode head is still workable.

Spoiler:
That spell is actually the main reason I bought Occult Adventures.


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TimD wrote:

At least explode head is still workable.

** spoiler omitted **

Looking over the link; other than it needing a space between Components and Range, I don't see too much wrong with that spell. Not to get off the topic of the post too much, but I think I could probably live with it being basically a no-save, no attack roll, instant death spell and not being a [death] effect, since those are only for creatures under 20 hit points. Even without being a [death] effect (which might allow a creature to get some protections with magic spells or items) you're still not coming back with a raise dead-type spell since you don't have a head... so may as well just added it in.

If I were editing the spell myself... the only real concern I have is the 2d6 area effect shrapnel damage. My concern is that it's always this amount whether you explode a human's skull, a dragon's skull, or a mouse. I think the skull shrapnel from a rat or a bat should probably be less. I know you might claim the damage is from the magic blast, but the description is very clear that it's debris from the skull; bone fragments, flying teeth, and other shrapnel. Especially since a character could just have cats, rats, bats, or any number of creatures with skulls and heads that in no possible scenario will likely have over 20 hit points, it seems like there should be reduced damage for smaller creatures. 1d6 for small, 1d4 for tiny, etc. It could go the other way too; 3d6 for a large creature, etc.

I understand that 2d6 isn't a lot of damage for that spell level, but still, it's an issue I would want addressed since those targets that would make the best grenades would never get a save at all and telling someone, "The gerbil's head explodes and the skull fragments lacerate you for 10 damage." seems strange when a dragon's head explodes and does the same amount or less in flying teeth and bone.
Player "What?! Our allied dragon's head exploded and I only took 4 damage! Then the caster pulled out a baby and threw it at us, and I made a spectacular diving catch to save it... and now you tell me that not only did he blow up the infant's head with no save... but I took 12 damage from flying shrapnel?! Come on! It has no teeth and its skull isn't even hard yet!"


Pizza Lord wrote:
TimD wrote:

At least explode head is still workable.

** spoiler omitted **

Looking over the link; other than it needing a space between Components and Range, I don't see too much wrong with that spell. Not to get off the topic of the post too much, but I think I could probably live with it being basically a no-save, no attack roll, instant death spell and not being a [death] effect, since those are only for creatures under 20 hit points. Even without being a [death] effect (which might allow a creature to get some protections with magic spells or items) you're still not coming back with a raise dead-type spell since you don't have a head... so may as well just added it in.

If I were editing the spell myself... the only real concern I have is the 2d6 area effect shrapnel damage. My concern is that it's always this amount whether you explode a human's skull, a dragon's skull, or a mouse. I think the skull shrapnel from a rat or a bat should probably be less. I know you might claim the damage is from the magic blast, but the description is very clear that it's debris from the skull; bone fragments, flying teeth, and other shrapnel. Especially since a character could just have cats, rats, bats, or any number of creatures with skulls and heads that in no possible scenario will likely have over 20 hit points, it seems like there should be reduced damage for smaller creatures. 1d6 for small, 1d4 for tiny, etc. It could go the other way too; 3d6 for a large creature, etc.

I understand that 2d6 isn't a lot of damage for that spell level, but still, it's an issue I would want addressed since those targets that would make the best grenades would never get a save at all and telling someone, "The gerbil's head explodes and the skull fragments lacerate you for 10 damage." seems strange when a dragon's head explodes and does the same amount or less in flying teeth and bone.
Player "What?! Our allied dragon's head exploded and I only took 4 damage! Then the caster pulled out a baby and threw it at us, and I made a spectacular diving catch to save it... and now you tell me that not only did he blow up the infant's head with no save... but I took 12 damage from flying shrapnel?! Come on! It has no teeth and its skull isn't even hard yet!"

you can always do regenerate to regrow the head so raise dead is always an option

only those with 20 hp or less has no save, the blast radius ask for a reflex save or no damage, if you have more than 20 HP you take 1d6 per caster lvl for a max of 20d6, fortitude save for half damage, if you become disable or dying your head explode.

so its not that bad, disintegrate deal 2d6 per caster lvl a max of 40D6 fortitude save for 5d6 and if you fall at 0 or below you are reduce to dust so raise dead and regenerate and/or resurrection can't help you (spell lvl 6 also). the spell is pretty balanced if you look at it compared to disintegrate

for the damage for the explosion since its a spell they didn't care what the head target was, its just a spell, and if you take a stock of tiny animal to deal AoE damage with it you are evil and you use a very ineffective spell for the AoE when other AoE at lower spell lvl are better


John Murdock wrote:
you can always do regenerate to regrow the head so raise dead is always an option

I'm pretty sure you can't do this... unless you're using a mythic version of regenerate. Even then, you'd need to get it cast within 1 round of death.

Quote:
for the damage for the explosion since its a spell they didn't care what the head target was, its just a spell,

Sure, and I'd be fine with that explanation. However, that is not how the spell is written. It is pretty clear that the damage is from the debris and shrapnel from the exploding head. Like I point out, I am not hugely concerned with the damage aspect itself, but if they're going to make it based on something... make it based on it or just say that the damage is from spell pressure and release (but it isn't, it's specifically from debris and is slashing damage, unlike just a pressure wave or blast from the spell effect.)

I guess the question would be whether you consider that damage from the exploding creature's head to be actual spell damage or not, in which case technically Spell Resistance should apply to any target that might take that damage. I don't believe it does. I view the spell as having one target, that target getting a SR check (if applicable) and if it explodes that's a result of the pressure built up by the spell not the spell itself; flinging shrapnel, similar to telekinesis. If that weren't the case, I would at the very least expect a simple '(SR applies)' added into the text for the AoE damage and Reflex save. Again, it all comes down to looking at the full picture and situations that might arise and trying to answer them or address them in the most concise (word-count matters) and efficient way possible while keeping the spell intent as close the the author's vision as you can.

Quote:
and if you take a stock of tiny animal to deal AoE damage with it you are evil

Debate-able (not saying I want to start a debate on it here), certainly it could be considered callous or possibly cruel. Somebody killing rats or bunches of spiders or just bees isn't necessarily evil. Plus, it works just as well on summoned creatures, you could use it on a familiar (not recommending your own) but if the master has 41 hit points or less then the familiar just blows up, no attack roll, no evasion. I'm not saying it's as egregious as the problems with death clutch's wording and mechanics. I am just saying that from an editing and game theory standpoint I would have wanted it addressed. Again, whether you familiar blows up and does 1d4 damage to you from skull fragments or 2d6 it's going to suck... the point is a weasel's skull is going to explode from far less pressure (and thus have much less force) and have far less shrapnel potential than the force from something that explodes an ogre or T-rex skull.

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