Summoner ressurection. Idea drought.


Homebrew and House Rules

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Now, we all heard the tale of the summoner class. Im not going to tire you with repeating it, so here's why i made this thread.

Some of us miss the summoners consept, so this thread is meant to provide a place where people can post their ideas on the rebalansing and advancment of the class.

I'll start:
The summoner needs to lose spellcasting completely in favour of summoning.

Give the summoner a new class feature - planar bond, long story short, they can either call a standard eidolon or gain the Summon SLA feature or a la synthesist, Fuse with the Eidolon.

Planar bubble- aura like ability which allows to give your outsiders some buffs depending on the chosen plane.

Probably some plane option, like a clerics domains or somthing like that.

Gonna post the full class later on.


Why does it need to lose spellcasting?

I haven't played a summoner and I have only seen one in play for four sessions, but if I were to point the finger at its problem I would say that the eidolon is too customizable: in addition to feats and skills you have a large list of evolutions, a slew of points to spend on them, and you can rebuild every level. Familiars have no feats and companion have limited capabilities of their own. Eidolons are superior in every way to the two other types of buddies. I would knock it down before removing spellcasting.


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Having run a game with an unchained summoner I saw no problems with the class. Now this is anecdotal evidence from a sample of one, but it's what I have.


I recall playing alongside a summoner in the party. Our party was somewhat low-powered but the summoner ran every fight. Nothing could survive the eidolon and sheer power of summon monster. Combine that with haste and other staple spells and this guy was the deciding factor in almost every big encounter. Cutting spell casting might be a nice change but you have to compensate by giving the summoner something to do with its actions. Maybe a series of scaling cantrip type powers they can spam when they don't want to fuse.


The unchained summoner removed most of the big issues with the class; I'm not sure you're reacting to an issue that still exists. Anything that class can do, the druid can do better in terms of spamming summons and then wrecking shop with their spellcasting, plus a druid can then turn into a huge beast themselves and tear things apart, which the summoner is rubbish at.

The first version of the summoner had too many overpowered evolutions available too cheaply. The biggest offender here was Pounce, which was a one-point evolution, available at very low level. It was insanely, stupidly cheap, and I genuinely don't understand how it got past the first round of playtesting. It made the route to an OP eidolon way too easy, and it was trivial to have a class feature that was a better melee combatant than the fighter.

They also didn't pick the level of the spells very well. Summoners had delayed spellcasting and then their spell list changed the levels of all the best spells so that they got them at the same class level or slightly before the main casters like wizards and clerics. The craziest of these was Haste as a 2nd level spell on the summoner list, which they got access to at character level 4, earlier than anyone else.

The other thing that was ridiculous was the synthesist archetype, which was a very cool idea that was pretty rough in execution. You could basically forget all your physical stats, since you used your mental stats and the eidolon's physical stats while it was summoned - and it was going to be summoned all the time. It was trivially easy to be far more powerful than just about anyone else in the party as a synthesist.

The unchained summoner, on the other hand, removes all these issues. The eidolon is useful, but you have a lot fewer evolution points to play with, and the outsider typing means it's all pretty flavorful. The only spells you get access to at all early are all summoning-related, with nothing that makes them more useful outside of their intended niche than primary spellcasters.

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So i put it that nobody wants to work on homebrew and create a summoner-esqwe class. Everybody wants to put how OP it was or how the US fixes all issues.

BTW, thanks for horribly derailing the thread, REALL thanks.


This thread got the reaponses it did because it opened with the stated intent to fix a problem. This led to responses doubting the existence of said problem. If you just have a cool idea for a variation on the class great, just whip it out and see what folks think.

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And somebody can even try to be creativevand propose somthing SOLID, but NOO! We need to say how bad it is and how US is better in every way! Somebody could at least promise to think of somthing, but NOO! We have to complain. Well US didnt fix anything in my opinion.

Players who were creative could do anything they wanted to the eidolon, but now the players who arent as creative get the most attension, the packages were okay, but also too limiting. Outsiders are one of the most diverse groups of creatures out there, and if we forget about balance and think about consept, there is the problem, game designers sacrifise consepts to the fat idol of balance. And thats a bit weird coming from the sourse of martial/caster disparsity. Not like the class didnt get an stronger, but they sacrifised the flexibility of the classes idea to fullfil a message board whim, that's just sad.

So if anyone else starts disscussing the "Power" of the class or how it was "Fixed", i will delete and flag this thread and create a new one, because for some reason everybody missed

Ruchi wrote:

Some of us miss the summoners consept, so this thread is meant to provide a place where people can post their ideas on the rebalansing and advancment of the class.

Thank you very much, me, and now i'll wait for some homebrewing person to come around and actually PROPOSE an interesting idea, thank you very much.


I liked the Idea of the Summoner, but I never really clicked with the idea of an eidolon.
Maybe it'd make the class a lot more bland without it, but I think replacing the eidolon with a much more robust summoning skill and massively expanded table of summonable monsters would be great.
Maybe some kind of ability gained every couple levels to customize summoned creatures with elemental templates or other abilities.

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Ruchi wrote:

And somebody can even try to be creativevand propose somthing SOLID, but NOO! We need to say how bad it is and how US is better in every way! Somebody could at least promise to think of somthing, but NOO! We have to complain. Well US didnt fix anything in my opinion.

Players who were creative could do anything they wanted to the eidolon, but now the players who arent as creative get the most attension, the packages were okay, but also too limiting. Outsiders are one of the most diverse groups of creatures out there, and if we forget about balance and think about consept, there is the problem, game designers sacrifise consepts to the fat idol of balance. And thats a bit weird coming from the sourse of martial/caster disparsity. Not like the class didnt get an stronger, but they sacrifised the flexibility of the classes idea to fullfil a message board whim, that's just sad.

So if anyone else starts disscussing the "Power" of the class or how it was "Fixed", i will delete and flag this thread and create a new one, because for some reason everybody missed

Ruchi wrote:

Some of us miss the summoners consept, so this thread is meant to provide a place where people can post their ideas on the rebalansing and advancment of the class.

Thank you very much, me, and now i'll wait for some homebrewing person to come around and actually PROPOSE an interesting idea, thank you very much.

Note: i whrote all of this before Java man posted, but it was explictly stated "ideas" in the O post, so please post ideas, not how it has problems. So people basicly looked at the INTENT , not the explict text, weird.

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Origami Dog wrote:

I liked the Idea of the Summoner, but I never really clicked with the idea of an eidolon.

Maybe it'd make the class a lot more bland without it, but I think replacing the eidolon with a much more robust summoning skill and massively expanded table of summonable monsters would be great.
Maybe some kind of ability gained every couple levels to customize summoned creatures with elemental templates or other abilities.

On the contrary, my friend, i buy the idea of the eidolon more, but thats how opinions are different, i will not say that someons elses opinion on the classes idea is invalid, the idea is just different. So i say - go ahead and compose an alternate class that fits your consept, not argue on how the eidolon us bad or OP, thats how people need to live, not reactively, posting replies that never create something new, but proactively, making people think and be generaly creative.

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Just struck me that the more customizable and creative classes are the most powerfull. See wizard, with his changeble spell list, and summoner, with his even more changable eidolon.

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To be a good writer of things that explain, you need to alternate between giving Old and New information.

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I'm done, you can post now.


Ruchi wrote:
Thank you very much, me, and now i'll wait for some homebrewing person to come around and actually PROPOSE an interesting idea, thank you very much.

Usually homebrewers don't walk around freely writing classes for people. You have to go into a thread where they offered to make classes for the public, where they might do it when they get past the backlog there always is, or you have to bait them with an interesting idea. Summoner remakes have been done to the death. It is not considered an interesting idea.

My advice is to try searching in past threads on the homebrew section for 'summoner remake' and variations on that phrase, or to make one yourself and ask for help balancing it which should get you more help than your current tactics have.

Also, please try to use proper grammar and capitalization. It makes your posts easier to read and people more sympathetic to your cause.

Dark Archive

Finaly some solid advise or proposers, thank you very much.*no sarcasm*.

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No seriously.


Ruchi wrote:
Finaly some solid advise or proposers, thank you very much.*no sarcasm*.

You're very welcome.


You did get some ideas, and you also got some criticism of what you think is a problem. I believe that you focused on the criticism. Many people don't agree with you. More than once I have spent a week writing home-brew material and after posting it have had fewer responses than you have had in this thread. I suggest that you post some of your ideas, fully written out as class features, etc. You'll get critique of that instead of critique of your ideas. Also, if you want to post your ideas you'll need to take things less personally. I know some of this feels personal, but its not because we don't know you. I've been there.


Mybe just a bit personal, anter all those months of frustrating "its OP threads".

I'll write when i have more time.

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