Summoned Creatures and Incorporeal


Rules Questions


Does anyone know of a method to give summoned creatures (even those not instrinsically able to) the "ghost touch" ability -- as in be able to hit incorporeals regularly?

Think Summon Monster I-IX spell and whatever creature pops out having this ability in addition to their normal suite of abilities.

From my searches, it looks like the most direct way would be to summon a creature and add on the ghost template. Looking for ways to accomplish this.


Sadly, I know of nothing that will do what you ask.

There's at least one incorporeal monster on the summon monster list, though. Alternately, you could summon something that can use weapons and give it a ghost touch weapon you keep around for that purpose--it'll clatter to the ground at end of duration.


You can get an Amulet of Mighty Fists with ghost touch cast on it. Just toss to your summoned critter first round.

AtD

Sovereign Court

Spirit-Bound Blade would work on for example a Hound Archon's sword.

Dark Archive

Only thing I can come up with at the moment, is taking the Expanded Summon Monster feat and pick the Hypnalis for SM5 and the Animate Dream for SM6.

There might be easier methods, but this doesn't cost extra actions from you or your summoned creature.


I have had a lot of success using the Hypnalis against incorporeal enemies, they work very well.

Animate Dream is a great pick for expanded summon monster but not great against most incorporeals. Its touch attack deals negative energy damage and most incorporeal enemies are undead so wont be harmed by it.

The Exchange

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evolved summon lets you give magic attack. would be same as ghost touch on non magic attacks.


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Jeff Morse wrote:
evolved summon lets you give magic attack. would be same as ghost touch on non magic attacks.

Fantastic -- while not what I was looking for exactly, it looks like the Shadow Form evolution does give melee attacks the ghost touch ability -- but only half damage to corporeal creatures.

Bleh, it's a two point evolution.


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I mean, the same thing that I do in parties that don't have ghost touch weapons.

I cast ghostbane dirge. Sure, you could whittle away it's HP by dealing half damage with magic weapons, or you could cast the spell.

Also, Magic Fang should allow you to hit them for 50% damage I believe, as though their natural attacks were magical.


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Claxon wrote:

I mean, the same thing that I do in parties that don't have ghost touch weapons.

I cast ghostbane dirge. Sure, you could whittle away it's HP by dealing half damage with magic weapons, or you could cast the spell.

Also, Magic Fang should allow you to hit them for 50% damage I believe, as though their natural attacks were magical.

Sadly, my character is an arcanist -- so Ghostbane Dirge is unavailable. We don't have a bard, and our party cleric is one that is unlikely to be cooperative.


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Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.

The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.


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Haven't heard this one in a while. Wait until you see Dazing Spell, you'll think you've found the win button.

(Note: Dazing Spell is excellent anyway.)


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Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.

There are arguments both for and against ectoplasmic spell working. One of the con arguments is that in order for an ectopic spell to work, it must directly affect the incorporeal creature.

Scarab Sages

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Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.

I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

As for solutions for summoned monsters to deal damage to incoporeal, you could buff the summoned creature (Magic Fang or Magic Weapon, probably others), or you could take Proxy Summoning to have the summoned creature deliver touch spells (which would be eligible targets for ectoplasic spell metamagic feats).

Could also see if the GM would allow Sunlight Summons to apply (I don't think magical for DR means magical for Incorporeal, but you could ask).


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Summon Neutral Monster adds some psychopomps to your list of summons, which have a special ability to attack incorporeal creatures normally.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.

I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

As for solutions for summoned monsters to deal damage to incoporeal, you could buff the summoned creature (Magic Fang or Magic Weapon, probably others), or you could take Proxy Summoning to have the summoned creature deliver touch spells (which would be eligible targets for ectoplasic spell metamagic feats).

Could also see if the GM would allow Sunlight Summons to apply (I don't think magical for DR means magical for Incorporeal, but you could ask).

Fun Fact there is already an FAQ on this subject. Ruling that attacks that count as magic for DR also count for Incorporeal.

Scarab Sages

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Could also just summon psychopomps using Ring of Summoning Affinity (Psychopomp) as they all have Spirit Touch.

psychopomp wrote:

Spirit Touch (Su) A psychopomp’s natural weapons, as well as any weapon it wields, are treated as though they had the ghost touch weapon special ability.


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Paradozen wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.

I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

As for solutions for summoned monsters to deal damage to incoporeal, you could buff the summoned creature (Magic Fang or Magic Weapon, probably others), or you could take Proxy Summoning to have the summoned creature deliver touch spells (which would be eligible targets for ectoplasic spell metamagic feats).

Could also see if the GM would allow Sunlight Summons to apply (I don't think magical for DR means magical for Incorporeal, but you could ask).

Fun Fact there is already an FAQ on this subject. Ruling that attacks that count as magic for DR also count for Incorporeal.

That's why I mentioned magic fang magic fang/magic weapon because they will allow you to do at least half damage to the enemy.

The Exchange

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Quintain wrote:
Jeff Morse wrote:
evolved summon lets you give magic attack. would be same as ghost touch on non magic attacks.

Fantastic -- while not what I was looking for exactly, it looks like the Shadow Form evolution does give melee attacks the ghost touch ability -- but only half damage to corporeal creatures.

Bleh, it's a two point evolution.

Sorry bout that, should have checked first

The Exchange

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And than check before posting again. I find it under the 1 point ones on PRD under advanced players guide.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.
I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

The Feat turns your spell effect ethereal...

The Summoned Monster is the effect, and now would be ethereal...
The ethereal Monster would do ethereal damage...

What aspects of a spell do you think the Feat changes?

The Feat does not change one part of the spell, it changes the whole thing.


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Dr Styx wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.
I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

The Feat turns your spell effect ethereal...

The Summoned Monster is the effect, and now would be ethereal...
The ethereal Monster would do ethereal damage...

What aspects of a spell do you think the Feat changes?

The Feat does not change one part of the spell, it changes the whole thing.

The feat does not "turn your spell ethereal."

Ectoplasmic Spell Feat wrote:
Benefit: An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures.

So it's target or effect works on ethereal creatures.

Summon Monster wrote:
Effect one summoned creature

Congratulations, Ectoplasmic Spell lets you successfully summon an incorporeal or ethereal creature, I guess. If one is on your list of allowed creatures...in which case you could do it anyway.

The Exchange

No. Will not argue it. Not at my table.


Jeff Morse wrote:
No. Will not argue it. Not at my table.

And what rules support do you have for that position?

Shadow Lodge

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

Would Ectoplasmic Spell Feat added to the Summon Monster Spell not work?

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell wrote:
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can't modify.
The Feat says nothing about not working with this spell.
I think, yes, you could apply the feat, but I'm not sure what it would do. The spell just summons a specific monster. This metamagic feat doesn't affect the damage that the specific monster deals, nor does it affect any other, normal aspects of the spell.

The Feat turns your spell effect ethereal...

The Summoned Monster is the effect, and now would be ethereal...
The ethereal Monster would do ethereal damage...

What aspects of a spell do you think the Feat changes?

The Feat does not change one part of the spell, it changes the whole thing.

The feat does not "turn your spell ethereal."

Ectoplasmic Spell Feat wrote:
Benefit: An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures.

So it's target or effect works on ethereal creatures.

Summon Monster wrote:
Effect one summoned creature
Congratulations, Ectoplasmic Spell lets you successfully summon an incorporeal or ethereal creature, I guess. If one is on your list of allowed creatures...in which case you could do it anyway.

I'm really confused with your answer/reasoning here. Ectoplasmic Spell allows a given spell to affect incorporeal or ethereal creatures. Normally, Incorporeal and Ethereal creatures have special rules that allow them to ignore many things that are not Force, Positive, and Negative Energy Damage. Ectoplasmic Spell gets around that by allowing the spell to affect them anyway.

The effect of Summon Monster spells is "one summoned monster", (which honestly should be "one or more summoned monsters"). So an Ectoplasmic Summon Monster spell will summon a monster that has full affect against Incorporeal or Ethereal targets. The Summoned Monster is not themselves Incorporeal or Ethereal.


Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

Light beam:
A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.


Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

If you are of the right level, Ghaele Azata are even better than lantern archons.


Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

Incorporeal isn't a form of DR and summons cannot use teleportation abilities.

The Exchange

DR magic counts as magic attacks, so would do half damage.


Jeff Morse wrote:
DR magic counts as magic attacks, so would do half damage.

Wait, what? Do you have a citation for that? I've never seen anyone rule that a creature's DR has anything to do with its attacks...


Universal Monster Rules.

Damage Reduction wrote:
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


And to make it totally clear, the Bestiary FAQ has this:

Incorporeal Creatures and "Counts as Magic": Say I have an attack that counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, such as from the monk's ki pool (magic). Does that mean I can't harm an incorporeal creature at all, since the attack doesn't count as magical for that purpose?
Such attacks should also be able to harm incorporeal creatures as if the attack was magic. This will be reflected in future errata.


Java Man wrote:

And to make it totally clear, the Bestiary FAQ has this:

Incorporeal Creatures and "Counts as Magic": Say I have an attack that counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, such as from the monk's ki pool (magic). Does that mean I can't harm an incorporeal creature at all, since the attack doesn't count as magical for that purpose?
Such attacks should also be able to harm incorporeal creatures as if the attack was magic. This will be reflected in future errata.

I figured as much, but I made my suggestion on shaky grounds because it specifically said "for purposes of bypassing damage reduction".


Ah, interesting, thanks.


I used a Erinyes last night against incorporeals -- they come with +1 weapons (bow and sword).

Scarab Sages

If summoning a creature that can wield weapons, there's the Spiritbane Spike. It's a non-magical, 300gp option for a temporary Ghost Touch Shortsword.

I've never used one in-game, but looks like a decent option if you aren't willing to buy actual ghost touch weapons. I'd imagine a summoned creature could use it too, provided you had a shared language (since commands other than "attack" require a shared language for summon monster spells).

Sovereign Court

Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

The interesting thing is that the light beams are extraordinary abilities, so they don't do jack against incorporeal critters.

Scarab Sages

Ascalaphus wrote:
Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

The interesting thing is that the light beams are extraordinary abilities, so they don't do jack against incorporeal critters.

Not sure regarding the examples, but I am pretty sure that being Incorporeal doesn't grant any special immunity to all Ex abilities.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

The interesting thing is that the light beams are extraordinary abilities, so they don't do jack against incorporeal critters.
Not sure regarding the examples, but I am pretty sure that being Incorporeal doesn't grant any special immunity to all Ex abilities.

Non magical attacks do no damage to incorporeal creatures so arguably an Ex form of attack is ineffective.

Sovereign Court

andreww wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Thaboe wrote:

Shouldn't any critter with dr/magic already ba able to strike incorporeal creatures for 1/2 damage? At least with it's natural attacks. Like mephits and Gricks.

Oh and Lantern archons. They might not be strong. But they can fly around with perfect flight, teleport and pew pew lazers everywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

The interesting thing is that the light beams are extraordinary abilities, so they don't do jack against incorporeal critters.
Not sure regarding the examples, but I am pretty sure that being Incorporeal doesn't grant any special immunity to all Ex abilities.
Non magical attacks do no damage to incorporeal creatures so arguably an Ex form of attack is ineffective.

Exactly.

Scarab Sages

andreww wrote:
Non magical attacks do no damage to incorporeal creatures so arguably an Ex form of attack is ineffective.

Damage only, or are they totally unaffected by Ex abilities? I was responding to the idea that they are immune to Ex abilities.

For example, Does Favored Enemy (Ex) against undead grant anything against Incorporeal Undead?

Sure the bonus damage is ignored if the attack is non-magical, but what about the bonus to attack, or the bonus on perception, do these not apply if their target is incoporeal?


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
andreww wrote:
Non magical attacks do no damage to incorporeal creatures so arguably an Ex form of attack is ineffective.

Damage only, or are they totally unaffected by Ex abilities? I was responding to the idea that they are immune to Ex abilities.

For example, Does Favored Enemy (Ex) against undead grant anything against Incorporeal Undead?

Sure the bonus damage is ignored if the attack is non-magical, but what about the bonus to attack, or the bonus on perception, do these not apply if their target is incoporeal?

A few points. First, a ranger's favored enemy bonus damage is untyped damage and so matches the base damage of the weapon being used. If the weapon counts as magic the favored enemy bonus will also count as magic.

The problem is a lantern archon's rays are untyped and, apparently from the (ex) tag, not inherently magical based on that.

However, since the rays overcome all types of DR (including dr/magic), I think it could be argued that they would function as a magic attack versus an incorporeal target.

EDIT: Doh, should have read more thoroughly. Since the incorporeal subtype only talks about how non-magical attacks and damage are changed in relation to itself, and not any other non-magical things, then non-magical, non-attack, non-damaging effects fuction as normal.


andreww wrote:


Non magical attacks do no damage to incorporeal creatures so arguably an Ex form of attack is ineffective.

In the case of the lantern archon, I believe the exception is in the text "bypasses all forms of damage reduction" -- which, by means of the FAQ for DR/magic = magic against incorporeals -- means that the ray attack is effective against incorporeal creatures.

In addition, I'd go so far as to say that it does 100% damage against incorporeal creatures to boot.

Quote:


EDIT: Doh, should have read more thoroughly. Since the incorporeal subtype only talks about how non-magical attacks and damage are changed in relation to itself, and not any other non-magical things, then non-magical, non-attack, non-damaging effects fuction as normal.

Triple negative...tricky...

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