I'm interested how you GMs handle your players.
How much respect and agency do you demand on the table towards other players, yourself and the game?
I ask this because couple of weeks ago I ended a group I've GMed for 10 years. Everyone took it pretty badly. It's a small group and I always had a problem with two of my players (half of the group).
One player would often (once in a month on average) just not show up for a session and then I would call him up and he would say that he just forgot to let us know that he can't make it. This is really annoying because we have a set game day once a week which we sometimes alter to suite everybody's time. This happens a lot and his explanation is that he is just that forgetful.
This really bothers me because I take time to prepare a session and when someone just doesn't show up, it throws a wrench in my plans.
I called him out for this many times, but it just keeps on happening.
More than once happened that he would want to game on different day than usual, we all move our schedule and then he does a no show again.
The other player loves to talk, which is great but our game gatherings last for four hours and usually this player takes at least a half an hour telling us about his week, work and such.
Further more, he would often interrupt a game to tell us yet another thing that happened.
I tried remedying this by getting everyone to show up an hour earlier so we can all hang out, chat and catch up but it was this player that said that one hour early is to early for them and they just could not make it.
I'm wondering what would your tolerance level be for this?
Last time this happened I snapped and decided not to run the game anymore for them. They took it rather badly and I still didn't hear from them. It sucks because we are good friends outside d&d.
(if anyone wonders our age group is 25+)
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Firstly, I'm sorry to hear that you lost a group you've had so long. Mine has only been together for >2 years and it'd still suck to break it up.
I have similar players in my games, but so far they haven't been enough to make me want to quit. It is frustrating when people don't seem to take the game as seriously as you, but I'd rather just ask the perennially missing player to leave the game if they were that disruptive.
And if I'm putting up with regular asides and chatter during the game, it's because I'm friends with the talky player - it doesn't seem like that big a sacrifice to lose 1/8th of the scheduled time to catch up. (We only have 3-hour sessions and people go to bed right afterwards, so our time is more at a premium, but we still use at least 15 minutes every session shooting the s~$$.) If the rest of the group finds the chatter annoying, and the player won't cut it down to a reasonable amount of time, then it's probably time to also expel that player. So I guess what I'm saying here is you'd want to recruit new players.
That said, it sounds like this was a friend group as much as a gaming group. Even after the games have stopped, you could still get together just to hang out and catch up, right?
That said, it sounds like this was a friend group as much as a gaming group. Even after the games have stopped, you could still get together just to hang out and catch up, right?
Hey, thanks for a reply!
Yeah it was a friend group and of course we will hang out more, it seems people just need some time to cool down. And I will find new players.
I just wanted to see how other people handle their issues and their tolerance levels. I was concerned if I over reacted, but from my point of view, this was a long time coming.
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Ten years of planning games only to have a player not show up because the player forgot? Ten years of this? Your friend either forgets to go to work, forgets to shower, forgets to eat, etc., etc., or something else is going on.
Keep in mind that we teach people how to treat us by allowing said behavior. By ending it, you did exactly what I would have done (although I might have done it nine years and nine months ago, and only for that player).
As for your other friend, I cannot imagine not hanging out and talking during the game. It is a social game after all. Having said that, you stated you are all friends outside of the game, which is where your friend could have caught everyone up on work life. I thought you handled this appropriately, but since your friend could not accommodate (or compromise if that's a less harsh word), then ending it (for that player) is what I would have done.
It's basically that whole, "If you kids don't knock it off I'm turning this car around." They didn't knock it off. You turned the car around. No problem.
Glad you can all remain friends because that's the hard part when tough decisions are made. And of course, all of us here feel bad for the other two players who were committed and ready. But maybe they felt the same way about the other two players. Hang in there.
Not to be critical, but it seems like you might've overreacted, we all do it from time to time. It sounds like the one guy just likes to share and can't remember all the bullet points he wants to share all at once (I'm the same way), and as a parent I also can't always make it earlier just for chatting.
My recommendation. Take a break and then bring up your concerns, listen to theirs, and hopefully everyone can come to an agreement.
If you can't, the best of luck finding a new group or however it's resolved.
Ten years of planning games only to have a player not show up because the player forgot? Ten years of this? Your friend either forgets to go to work, forgets to shower, forgets to eat, etc., etc., or something else is going on.
Keep in mind that we teach people how to treat us by allowing said behavior. By ending it, you did exactly what I would have done (although I might have done it nine years and nine months ago, and only for that player).
As for your other friend, I cannot imagine not hanging out and talking during the game. It is a social game after all. Having said that, you stated you are all friends outside of the game, which is where your friend could have caught everyone up on work life. I thought you handled this appropriately, but since your friend could not accommodate (or compromise if that's a less harsh word), then ending it (for that player) is what I would have done.
It's basically that whole, "If you kids don't knock it off I'm turning this car around." They didn't knock it off. You turned the car around. No problem.
Glad you can all remain friends because that's the hard part when tough decisions are made. And of course, all of us here feel bad for the other two players who were committed and ready. But maybe they felt the same way about the other two players. Hang in there.
Thanks for the input.
The reason why it lasted for so long is because we are very close outside of d&d. I spoke out to them on previous occasions and then things are good for a month or two, but then we return to an old bad routine.This all became exponentially worse now that we all have jobs and little free time, so I felt I had to end it at one point.
Not to be critical, but it seems like you might've overreacted, we all do it from time to time. It sounds like the one guy just likes to share and can't remember all the bullet points he wants to share all at once (I'm the same way), and as a parent I also can't always make it earlier just for chatting.
My recommendation. Take a break and then bring up your concerns, listen to theirs, and hopefully everyone can come to an agreement.
If you can't, the best of luck finding a new group or however it's resolved.
I know what you mean. And I understand the time factor very well.
It's just that we had those breaks and those talks before.But this was the first time I said "I can't run the game for the two of you anymore."
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There are two sayings that come to mind with this situation. The first, is sometimes your best friends make the worst gamers. The second, you can lead a gamer to mountain dew, but you cant make them drink. I evaluate my table often. I have the same group of players more or less but the groups have been shaken up many times in the last 15 years. You need to cover all the bases and find out what is workable and what is not. I have a few things you may want to consider.
Once a week games are a pretty big ask, especially if the game lands on a weekend. So I can understand someone occasionally bowing out. Not saying something ahead of time is bad form on their part though. I'd eventually ask if they need to go to bi-weekly games or enforce the idea that not mentioning an absence beforehand is rude. If bi-weekly is not enough, i'd try and add a 5th player. This is my wheel house because if one player cant make it (an occasional occurrence) you can still play well with 4. This helps accommodate a great, but unreliable player.
Sometimes a GM has to rule the table with an iron fist. A lot of folks will suggest have the players run initiative and I'd say count yourself lucky if that works for your table. At mine, I have to run it because every combat the player tracking will get distracted in their own moves and forget to keep track of things. I have to take lead and make the game run smoothly. That also means keeping folks on task. When a talky player gets going, you need to be ready to shut them down. An occasional break for a real life related story is fine. Though once its run its course you need to snap player attention back to the game.
If those techniques fail to bring your table together, I have a few ideas on building a new group. The first is never ever join a long term campaign with gamers you don't know. Start with meetups, one shots, or organized play. Yes, I get that may not be folks ideal playstyle, but its a means to an ends. You are interviewing new perspective players during these rounds. There is going to be playstyle differences that may not be reconcilable and its best to work those out before laying down a long term group.
Good luck.
Once a week games are a pretty big ask, especially if the game lands on a weekend. So I can understand someone occasionally bowing out. Not saying something ahead of time is bad form on their part though. I'd eventually ask if they need to go to bi-weekly games or enforce the idea that not mentioning an absence beforehand is rude. If bi-weekly is not enough, i'd try and add a 5th player. This is my wheel house because if one player cant make it (an occasional occurrence) you can still play well with 4. This helps accommodate a great, but unreliable player.
Thank you Pan!
I tried exactly what you suggested. Three months back I added a 5th player to the group. This unfortunately only created an easy exit for the troublesome player. Which was actually ok.However, it also created a new situation where both of players in question would not show up. The group is now large enough, so in their mind, skipping was fine.
I know this sounds like we are a very dysfunctional group, and we are. But you know, when it works, it's just awesome and beautiful. (So good, that they would raise a question of playing twice a week!
I would always shoot this proposal down because I knew it would never work.)
However, lately, that very, very rarely happened.
I'll follow your advice and find new players, or just play some boardgames for a while.
I know this sounds like we are a very dysfunctional group, and we are. But you know, when it works, it's just awesome and beautiful. (So good, that they would raise a question of playing twice a week!
I would always shoot this proposal down because I knew it would never work.)
However, lately, that very, very rarely happened.I'll follow your advice and find new players, or just play some boardgames for a while.
Doesn't sound particularly dysfunctional to me as a whole. Sounds pretty normal (minus the discourtesy of the player never telling you ahead of time he's missing the session). Rather, it sounds more like the group's dynamic doesn't work for your preferred method of playing. Unfortunately, that's probably going to be a bit of a barrier for you in building another stable group since I can guarantee that table talk is a very common thing...
Doesn't sound particularly dysfunctional to me as a whole. Sounds pretty normal (minus the discourtesy of the player never telling you ahead of time he's missing the session). Rather, it sounds more like the group's dynamic doesn't work for your preferred method of playing. Unfortunately, that's probably going to be a bit of a barrier for you in building another stable group since I can guarantee that table talk is a very common thing...
Oh I know, it's not really an issue if it takes little time. But too often it's long (for my liking I guess) and it really brings the session down, or takes an hour for a session to start.
Not to be critical, but it seems like you might've overreacted, we all do it from time to time.
Sounds more like an underreaction to me if you wait ten years to deal with a problem... Or maybe an underreaction followed by an overreaction...
If they were easily replaceable, I'd suggest replacing players like these. Being friends makes it more difficult, though.
With the chatty guy... I don't know of any way to shut this down beyond rudeness. Though maybe there's a way to get him to get him to tell you about his week over social media in advance or something?
With the guy who unexpectedly doesn't turn up, there are ways of planning for it, like:
Make his character more like an NPC. Keep hold of his sheet between sessions (or a digital copy of it). If the player isn't there, he just follows the party around doing whatever is asked of him. Avoid letting him become a major part of the storyline.
Or at least text him a couple of times before every session (a day before, an hour before) to check if he's still coming.
Sounds more like an underreaction to me if you wait ten years to deal with a problem... Or maybe an underreaction followed by an overreaction...
We had talks about these problems but they would always come up again.
Thanks for the advice. I tried with what you suggested but to be honest, after a while of the special treatment (backstories for his pcs so he can easily be missed, calling him to check if he is coming, arranging the game time to suit his needs first...) it just wore me down.
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This really bothers me because I take time to prepare a session and when someone just doesn't show up, it throws a wrench in my plans.
This. So much this.
I find that many players do not realize the amount of time and effort that goes into preparing a game. When I create a game schedule, I expect my players to put it on their calendar as a booked event for the foreseeable future. A game should get just as much respect as a book club, SCA, jazz band, or any other similar weekly group activity.
And yet, I find that, more often than not, most players do not treat gaming like this. They treat it like "just hanging out" and if anything else comes up, they will just shrug and cancel, as if I didn't spend 10 hours preparing game that week.
So yeah. Personal pet peeve of mine.
This. So much this.
I find that many players do not realize the amount of time and effort that goes into preparing a game. When I create a game schedule, I expect my players to put it on their calendar as a booked event for the foreseeable future. A game should get just as much respect as a book club, SCA, jazz band, or any other similar weekly group activity.
And yet, I find that, more often than not, most players do not treat gaming like this. They treat it like "just hanging out" and if anything else comes up, they will just shrug and cancel, as if I didn't spend 10 hours preparing game that week.
So yeah. Personal pet peeve of mine.
I don't spend 10 hours a week but yeah it takes time, especially since they (mostly the talkative player) really lose interest if the story isn't engaging for their characters.
Since we game mostly on Thursdays I always keep my Thursday night open and I try to get enough sleep on Wednesday so they don't get a tired sloppy gm. And they don't show up... yeah it sucks.
I used to get together once a month with some friends to play board games. Since all games played were self contained to a single session, there was no expectation that anyone would necessarily show up every time, and people could simply not show up with no hard feelings. Anyone not present at the agreed upon starting time would simply be left out of the first set of games.
On the other hand, if I was meeting friends to go out for dinner, I would darn well let them know if I was going to be late or not be able to show up at all.
It looks like what happened here is that over the past 10 years you were never able to impress on your friends that your RPG sessions should be treated more like getting together for dinner than a casual get-together to play board games. I would definitely not resume running these games until you are sure that your friends have gotten the message about your feelings in regard to such matters.
I used to get together once a month with some friends to play board games. Since all games played were self contained to a single session, there was no expectation that anyone would necessarily show up every time, and people could simply not show up with no hard feelings. Anyone not present at the agreed upon starting time would simply be left out of the first set of games.
On the other hand, if I was meeting friends to go out for dinner, I would darn well let them know if I was going to be late or not be able to show up at all.
It looks like what happened here is that over the past 10 years you were never able to impress on your friends that your RPG sessions should be treated more like getting together for dinner than a casual get-together to play board games. I would definitely not resume running these games until you are sure that your friends have gotten the message about your feelings in regard to such matters.
Thank you for your input and you are right. I had a talk with one of the other two players. And they feel the same. That these two never really treated our sessions like the three of us.
Is that snarky and passive-aggressive? Sure. But the GM should get to have some fun too.
This might get some results. But I would hate to ruin other player's good time because of the other two.
Anyway, thank you everyone for the replies.
I'm seeing my friends tonight and it'll probably be a lengthy discussion. We'll see how it goes and how to carry on.
Cheers!