I know that Curse of the Crimson Throne got a hard cover release so what are the odds Carrion Crown will get one?
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Less than 1% in the next 10 years. Hardcovers have been special cases, on the 5 and 10 year anniversary of pathfinder, and were older editions (3.5) updated to reflect the newer Pathfinder rules.
Legacy of Fire or Second Darkness would have a higher chance of being redone as hardcovers, possible Kingmaker might be on that list too down the road.
Is only reason why people think Kingmaker has a chance since its only AP where all prints are outsold?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I think it has a better-than-average chance due to a combination of being out-of-stock, the CRPG being based on it, and the chance for the designers to update the Kingdom-building rules to match UCam and tidy it up.
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JJ has said that the combination needed for a hardcover is roughly:
1 - Being mostly or totally sold out (normally with a decent aftermarket)
2 - Capacity in the company to handle updating and re developing
3 - A champion within the company who wants to do it.
2 is a general problem, especially at the moment with Starfinder, but for Carrion Crown, I suspect 3 is also a concern - CC was Wes' baby, and since he has left...
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I've also seen JJ mention that they don't want to do regular hardcover re-releases because there's concern that doing that will de-incentivize people buying AP's at release because they'll think they can just get the hardcover later on down the line.
Granted anyone who's going to be waiting this many years for that isn't likely to buy the ap at release to start with, in my opinion.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I would ponder how many people are willing to wait potentially decades to get the hardcover version, but then again, I won't buy Lego Star Wars episode 7 because I figure there will be a trilogy(7-9) or entire saga (1-9) version some day.
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It's not so much people thinking "I'll wait for this AP to be collated". It's newcomers to Paizo thinking "which AP shall I get? I could subscribe, but that's like over a hundred bucks for an adventure in six months time. Hey look - these compilation ones are much cheaper, plus they've been extensively playtested."
The more compilations they do, the more non-subscription options they are providing for new players. (I've already seen new PF gamers opt for Runelords and/or Crimson Throne as a less intimidating, more intuitive entry point than whichever AP is current).
It probably won't be many people, but subscriptions are the main game, as far as Paizo is concerned. Even a slight risk to such a fundamental pillar of their business model is not really worth the gamble.
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Carrion Crown
*flashbacks*
*shudders*
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I'd certainly like a hardcover copy as I missed the initial release.
Soon? Slim to none. Eventually? I would say that there is an even chance.
IMHO Kingmaker has a pretty good chance. It's a sandbox, kingdom building style of campaign. It's out of print and the kingdom building rules were updated in Ultimate Campaign.
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The problem is, creating a hardcover of Carrion Crown is a lengthy process,
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The problem is, creating a hardcover of Carrion Crown is a lengthy process, ** spoiler omitted **
Just ask Joseph Curwen to be part of the process. He can bring back to life publishers of past era through their essential salts.
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I'd rather get Legacy of Fire overhauled, plot-patched, and updated to Pathfinder RPG rules. Or a new Katapesh AP. Or a Qadira AP.
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Yeah, I think the old 3.5 APs are way more likely than anything printed under PF. Legacy of Fire and Second Darkness I would rather see, especially the latter, as Jacobs has expressed interest in reworking portions of it.
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Less than 1% in the next 10 years. Hardcovers have been special cases, on the 5 and 10 year anniversary of pathfinder, and were older editions (3.5) updated to reflect the newer Pathfinder rules.
Legacy of Fire or Second Darkness would have a higher chance of being redone as hardcovers, possible Kingmaker might be on that list too down the road.
That's not really true.
The first hardcover RotR AE was for the 5th Anniversary, that is right.The 2nd one CotCT HC came after 9 years and was made because James Jacobs really wanted to do it, parts 1-3 were sold out and it was in need of an 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion.
The last condition is NOT necessary anymore.
The other two (development power & almost sold out) are.
That excludes Second Darkness from being adapted in the next 10 years (over 1000 issues of all 6 parts in stock).
Carrion Crown's chances are not so bad (parts 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6 sold out), but Kingmaker (with the video game next year & being totally sold out for years) and Legacy of Fire (with parts 4, 5 & 6 sold out) are more likely to get a hardcover collection eventually.
That being said, with Starfinder being such a massive hit and the scaleback on the Players Companions & Campaign Settings, it seems possible that there will be a HC again in 2-3 years.
The demand seems to be there, CotCT HC sold pretty well, especially the LE.
There's never really been any significant doubt about the demand for compilations. If anything, strong demand is an argument against doing more.
Contributor
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The 2nd one CotCT HC came after 9 years and was made because James Jacobs really wanted to do it, parts 1-3 were sold out and it was in need of an 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion.
The last condition is NOT necessary anymore.
Do you have a reference for that? Last I knew, 3.5 conversion was still a necessary factor. But I've been paying less attention of late...
I would say the chances of Carrion crown being chosen for a Rare Hardcover conversion anytime soon is very unlikely. I would say Kingmaker,and Second Darkness have the best chance and of the newer AP's I would guess that maybe Shattered Star might be chosen because of the Runelord theme but to be honest I think it will be a very long time before they do another one, if ever.
Creative Director
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The 2nd one CotCT HC came after 9 years and was made because James Jacobs really wanted to do it, parts 1-3 were sold out and it was in need of an 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion.
Incorrect.
At the time, I was outlining Strange Aeons, the Lovecraft AP and one that I'd been wanting to create and develop more or less from the start of Pathfinder, and I was really looking forward to building that AP.
The decision to create a hardcover version of Curse of the Crimson Throne was not one I was part of making—it happened either above my pay grade or to the side of my pay grade (not sure which) for various reasons, but when that decision was made, I was the correct developer to take on the task of doing this project because A) I'd done it before with Runelords, and B) I was the most familiar with Crimson Throne out of all the employees, and C) since I wasn't QUITE hip-deep in the creation of another AP, taking me off of Strange Aeons before actual development was completed would impact that project's schedule very minimally.
Don't get me wrong; I think Adam did an INCREDIBLY AWESOME job developing Strange Aeons. But it was something I really wanted to do at the time—a Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover was not really even on my radar of "things I'm eager to push for."
But that's not how things worked out.
I'm very proud of how Curse of the Crimson Throne turned out, because I did put a LOT of work into making it happen once I was assigned to the task. But Crimson Throne's hardcover did not happen because I "really wanted to do it."
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The 2nd one CotCT HC came after 9 years and was made because James Jacobs really wanted to do it, parts 1-3 were sold out and it was in need of an 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion.Incorrect.
At the time, I was outlining Strange Aeons, the Lovecraft AP and one that I'd been wanting to create and develop more or less from the start of Pathfinder, and I was really looking forward to building that AP.
The decision to create a hardcover version of Curse of the Crimson Throne was not one I was part of making—it happened either above my pay grade or to the side of my pay grade (not sure which) for various reasons, but when that decision was made, I was the correct developer to take on the task of doing this project because A) I'd done it before with Runelords, and B) I was the most familiar with Crimson Throne out of all the employees, and C) since I wasn't QUITE hip-deep in the creation of another AP, taking me off of Strange Aeons before actual development was completed would impact that project's schedule very minimally.
Don't get me wrong; I think Adam did an INCREDIBLY AWESOME job developing Strange Aeons. But it was something I really wanted to do at the time—a Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover was not really even on my radar of "things I'm eager to push for."
But that's not how things worked out.
I'm very proud of how Curse of the Crimson Throne turned out, because I did put a LOT of work into making it happen once I was assigned to the task. But Crimson Throne's hardcover did not happen because I "really wanted to do it."
I stand corrected.
I really thought i read that you wanted to do it somewhere.I know you would like to do "Second Darkness", but that´s sadly not in the cards for the near future (hopefully one fine day).
IF the management does decide for another AP to be revised and collected and you´d be willing to do another one (a lot of work, which you did a tremendously great job on, for two times already) what would be your personal favorite AP (besides SD)?
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Creative Director
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IF the management does decide for another AP to be revised and collected and you´d be willing to do another one (a lot of work, which you did a tremendously great job on, for two times already) what would be your personal favorite AP (besides SD)?
No favorite. I try not to say things are favorite here anymore since that tends to make anyone involved with what I don't nominate as a favorite feel left out or slighted. In any event, I would hope that they'd give someone else a chance to work on the project, so that there'll be more than one person at Paizo who has experience at developing a 6 part Adventure Path into a single hardcover.
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Hm, with you developing Return of the Runelords, wouldn't that mean that Adam had some time to spare for this ? :D
Just my way of saying that I fully trust in him (or Crystal or whomever you decide to set up for that task) doing a great job with something like this.
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Creative Director
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Hm, with you developing Return of the Runelords, wouldn't that mean that Adam had some time to spare for this ? :D
Just my way of saying that I fully trust in him (or Crystal or whomever you decide to set up for that task) doing a great job with something like this.
No.
These days, there's no such thing as "spare time" at Paizo. In fact, there's never been such a thing since the Magazine Days a decade or so ago, when a magazine team would have a few spare days in the week after an issue ships to the printer.
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And I think if they start up updating pathfinder APs, then why would I buy AP chapters in advance? :P Since clearly best thing to do would be buy them only if I'm starting AP and hardcover hasn't been released yet, after all running non hardcover version would be running non bug fixed version without bonus content AND paying much more for it than if I had been waiting for hardcover version.
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And I think if they start up updating pathfinder APs, then why would I buy AP chapters in advance? :P Since clearly best thing to do would be buy them only if I'm starting AP and hardcover hasn't been released yet, after all running non hardcover version would be running non bug fixed version without bonus content AND paying much more for it than if I had been waiting for hardcover version.
I agree with you, this is why I said the chances are so low. Kingmaker has many things in is favor: is sold out, popular, almost 10 years old and most important, theres a CRPG in the way. However, doing a non 3.5 could hit their monthly sales hard and I don't think they'll gamble on that.
SD and Legacy of Fire don't have much in their favor besides being 3.5, and CoCT is still very recent, so it may take another five year for another Hardcover if we ever get one.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And I think if they start up updating pathfinder APs, then why would I buy AP chapters in advance? :P Since clearly best thing to do would be buy them only if I'm starting AP and hardcover hasn't been released yet, after all running non hardcover version would be running non bug fixed version without bonus content AND paying much more for it than if I had been waiting for hardcover version.
I've read this argument before, but I'm not sure it holds up. I have both of the HC compilations, and though I haven't looked at them too closely yet, it seems like there's plenty of stuff in the original PF volumes that doesn't make it into these compilations. Like the support articles, fiction (way back when...moment of silence...), and the bestiaries.
Yes, you'd get the actual "adventure", but the PF volumes have plenty of extra stuff too.
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Exclusivity of course!
Even if it sells enough to warrant a hardcover, that's what ten years away.
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The percentage of people who wait for a hardcover collection of an AP which may come out a few years later is very low.
Even IF EVERY AP would eventually be collected, say three years after the last part comes out, there wouldn´t be many people who would wait that long if they want to play a particular Adventure Path.
Look at comic publishers (argueably a different pricing range): after six issues of a series are out, they get collected in a hardcover or trade paperback. Both the single issues and the collections sell.
Paizo understandably can´t and doesn´t want to collect an AP immediately, but what reason is there not to do it a few years later when (most of) the single issues have sold out?
Commercially collectors will buy them (i have most of the original AP issues from RotR & CotCT as well as the HCs) but mostly people who never got to buy and play the original AP issues will, especially if the rulesset was changed (3.5 to Pathfinder OR Pathfinder to Starfinder), or if they come from a different medium (card game, computer game, heard the audio drama, read a PF Tale etc) as well as the next generation of players.
Historically everything gets a new edition every few years.
And I think if they start up updating pathfinder APs, then why would I buy AP chapters in advance? :P Since clearly best thing to do would be buy them only if I'm starting AP and hardcover hasn't been released yet, after all running non hardcover version would be running non bug fixed version without bonus content AND paying much more for it than if I had been waiting for hardcover version.
That's all I need to know about the direction of this thread.
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The most significant risk isn't that people will drop their subscription to the Taldor AP and think they'll just get it in ten years time. The bigger risk is that newcomers to Paizo will steer away from signing up for a subscription (each month there are some new subscribers replacing the gradual atrophy of people who have been customers for years).
Some people opt-in and opt-out of their AP subscriptions with each new release, but they're basically a wash. It's the attraction and retention of month-on-month subscribers which keeps the lights on and pays the staff's wages.
The risk is that those newcomers (who don't generally understand the subscription model very well anyhow) will realise the Taldor AP isn't going to be out for another six months, plus will cost twice as much. So they'll opt to buy the cheap and readily available RotRL compilation, then the CotCT compilation, then the Kingmaker compilation, then the SD compilation,....
When they eventually get around to looking for the Taldor compilation, it turns out there isn't one because only the oldtimers bought it (and Paizo are now producing less, since their bread-and-butter product is no longer so profitable it can pay for their fixed costs).
The more compilations that exist, there will always be some drag on the sale of the current AP (since not everyone has an unlimited gaming budget, it stands to reason that some of the revenue earned is actually diverted). It's difficult to say how big that drag will be but when it's something so central to Paizo's existence any risk is an issue, even if negligible.
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The percentage of people who wait for a hardcover collection of an AP which may come out a few years later is very low.
Any data on this? I'm sorry, but that's umpteenth time you state something with certainty indicating that you are sitting in front of some quantitative data which I would love to know more about.
Look at comic publishers (argueably a different pricing range)
Apples, oranges - comic books have ongoing, rapidly-developing storylines which often require you to be up to speed to understand what's going on. You don't need Pathfinder #100 to enjoy Pathfinder #150, you might need Spider-Man #600 to enjoy #650. And with the whole comic book fandom being about discussing and experiencing the most recent stuff, you're shooting yourself in the foot far harder by not buying Mister Miracle or Vision as it comes out, than you are by holding off with a Pathfinder AP.
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And I think if they start up updating pathfinder APs, then why would I buy AP chapters in advance? :P Since clearly best thing to do would be buy them only if I'm starting AP and hardcover hasn't been released yet, after all running non hardcover version would be running non bug fixed version without bonus content AND paying much more for it than if I had been waiting for hardcover version.That's all I need to know about the direction of this thread.
Geez, no need to be smug about it. You can disagree with people respectfully you know.
All I'm saying, its not very customer friendly to start suddenly releasing hardcovers for every AP after years of policy it being for exceptional situations. Not everyone has money to buy same ap twice essentially.
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All I'm saying, its not very customer friendly to start suddenly releasing hardcovers for every AP after years of policy it being for exceptional situations. Not everyone has money to buy same ap twice essentially.
May have overlooked it, but did anyone actually argue for that? Or aren't we talking about what the next AP might be that could get the Hardcover treatment.
Because as long as we're only talking about an AP Hardcover every few years, there's no way that they can do it for all of them. Which would also be my argument for why those HCs probably wouldn't influence subscription numbers too much, because there's no way you can be sure that the AP at hand will get that treatment way down the road.
I also happen to think that upgrading an other 3.5 AP would make much more sense than Kingmaker. That already gets special treatment in form of a CRPG. On the other hand, to me it seems very unlikely that the old issues of the 3.5 AP will sell out soon (who would buy them anyways, wrong system, very critical reseption in these boards, so apart from a few completionists, they'll probably continue to gather dust). So to update, let's say SD, would not only make it much more interesting ruleswise, it would also enable the designers to adress those points of contention.
So if Paizo can shoulder the additional workload and if it is profitable for them to do so, I don't think that a hardcover revision of an old AP every five years would damage anything.
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The only APs that really need a hardcover updated treatment are the ones that are 3.5. The rest of them are OK the way they are.
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The only APs that really need a hardcover updated treatment are the ones that are 3.5. The rest of them are OK the way they are.
There might be an argument to do them as well, because
a) softcover version is (nearly) sold out
b) you can make improvements based on the feedback you got during first edition
c) you can include stuff from later rule books that didn't exist when said AP was written.
d) looks good at my shelves :D
On the other hand, I really like the AP concepts they came up with since Hell's Vengeance, so it's not as if I didn't have my hands (and shelves) full already.
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One thing:
If it would be bad for Paizo to do the hardcover collections, they wouldn´t do them.
If the RotR AE would have sold badly, there wouldn´t have been a CotCT HC.
So people who think there won´t be another are very probably very wrong.
It will be a few years before another AP gets collected, especially with Starfinder stretching the resources right now.
To be back on topic:
The odds of getting a Carrion Crown HC are pretty low, because the most likely APs to get the next HC tretment are:
"Legacy of Fire" (#19 still had than 500 issues in stock in december 2016, #20 had less than 500 issues in stock in december 2016,
#21 had less than 1000 issues in stock in december 2016, #22 IS SOLD OUT,
#23 IS SOLD OUT, #24 IS SOLD OUT). It is 3.5 and needs to be converted to Pathfinder.
"Kingmaker" (#33 is the only issue that´s still available and only in non-mint condition). The computer-game will probably push it´s popularity (if it´s any good) in the fall of 2018, so that 2019 could be a good date to announce a HC collection.
It also doesn´t need very much tweaking, as most of it is very good as it is.
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Theory: After Starfinder is out and reasonably successful for 3-4 years, Paizo will finally give in and do Pathfinder 2e on Starfinder chassis. Whether they intend it or not at this point, Starfinder is the play test for Pathfinder 2.0.
They will then do 2e they will go look at old APs. I think at that time they will update 1-2 APS for 2e over a couple years.
Kingmaker has a high chance of being one.
They'll probably STILL have copies of Second Darkness, so it will have no shot and is the reason I don't think it has a shot now. Hell's Rebels maybe?
And yes, they've said no 2e, but they also said no more classes after Ultimate Combat.In both cases, I think they were sincere at the time they said so.
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The only APs that really need a hardcover updated treatment are the ones that are 3.5. The rest of them are OK the way they are.Why is 3.5 such a big deal? Going from 3.5 to Core is less of a jump than going from Core to Pathfinder circa September 2017. Might as well say that Unchained should be the dividing line.
I would think that this is mainly due to the existence of pdfs. I have a nearly complete collection of the APs, but the two I've been missing out on, will probably make it into my pdf collection over time, I probably won't buy them as SCs. But the reason I even think about getting them at all (apart from being a completionist) is that they are already written for Pathfinder, so if I want to run them, I have no additional work at all. At this point, I'm not sure if I would bother buying a 3.5 AP, because why do the work if you don't need to, especially as with Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire, the rule issue is not the only one.
Now given how even already awesome APs RotRL and CotCT got improved with the respective HC treatment, I'd buy SD and LoF in an instant if they got this same treatment, even when I already own them. Now to be honest, that probably goes for any other AP as well, but given that I don't get the same benefit out of them, I might at least wait a bit, probably bying them at a later time over amazon or ebay or even wait for a non-mint issue to pop up. And maybe, I might even give them a pass and rather spend the money on the next FGG kickstarter.
Regarding Unchained: It's not the same as the existence of Unchained doesn't change anything for the AP line. Unchained classes and rules are not mandatory, you can simply ignore them if you want to.