Does Mirror Image stack with miss chance effects


Rules Questions

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Shadow Lodge

blahpers wrote:

You have a 20% chance of your mirror image spell being ethereal when you cast it, per the blink text. If it's ethereal, the spell has no effect on material creatures attacking you unless they have the ability to strike ethereal targets. If it's material, then the images pop on a failed-by-5-or-less attack roll as usual. The images do not move back and forth between planes the way you do.

Ethereal jaunt is similar but easier to process. If you cast mirror image while ethereal, it's ethereal, and only matters when the attacker can strike ethereal things. If you cast mirror image while material and then cast...

Mirror image is a figment spell effect with a target of you. It is therefore dispelled with dispel magic by targeting its caster, in the same way disguise self or fire shield is dispelled, not as one would dispel silent image.

There's no miss-chance for targeting spells that affect yourself while blinking, because no matter whether the spell materializes on the material or ethereal plane, you are on the same plane.

As with all effects with a duration and target the creature, mirror image's effects translate back-and-forth from the ethereal plane at the same pace as its caster, just like fire shield, heroism or dominate person would.


John Murdock wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer: even the spell say that if you are invisible the spell as no effect because you can't see the copies, so it implies that the copies are also invisible, because they copy your look, your appearance, and if you have none then it has no look to copy thus rendering the spell useless, while you are blur the copy looked blurry but the blurry part is still the image itself even the blurry false illusory door that look like the real door its still part the false door

I disagree with the invisible part. Just because you're invisible doesn't mean that someone who can see invisibility doesn't have to deal with the Mirror Images simply because you're invisible. It's just that if you can't see the creature due to things like Invisibility or Blindness, then yes, the Mirror Images don't apply to those creatures, but if a creature can see you despite the Invisibility, then yes, they would have to still deal with those effects, because it's not like Invisibility suppresses those effects.

Which, as you've said and as the clauses state, means its effects are purely sight-based, since Invisibility changes your appearance. Blur does the same thing, and has an identical clause, therefore its effects are similarly contingent.

Not really. If the image is blurring from the shifting and wavering that the image is doing, then the miss chance can likely represent you trying to hit that part of the image, and the image shifting right before you actually touch said image, making the attack miss altogether.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
John Murdock wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer: even the spell say that if you are invisible the spell as no effect because you can't see the copies, so it implies that the copies are also invisible, because they copy your look, your appearance, and if you have none then it has no look to copy thus rendering the spell useless, while you are blur the copy looked blurry but the blurry part is still the image itself even the blurry false illusory door that look like the real door its still part the false door

I disagree with the invisible part. Just because you're invisible doesn't mean that someone who can see invisibility doesn't have to deal with the Mirror Images simply because you're invisible. It's just that if you can't see the creature due to things like Invisibility or Blindness, then yes, the Mirror Images don't apply to those creatures, but if a creature can see you despite the Invisibility, then yes, they would have to still deal with those effects, because it's not like Invisibility suppresses those effects.

Which, as you've said and as the clauses state, means its effects are purely sight-based, since Invisibility changes your appearance. Blur does the same thing, and has an identical clause, therefore its effects are similarly contingent.

Not really. If the image is blurring from the shifting and wavering that the image is doing, then the miss chance can likely represent you trying to hit that part of the image, and the image shifting right before you actually touch said image, making the attack miss altogether.

even if you see the invisible creature you would not see the copy since they are not there so the copy give no bonus, so you are at a big disadvantage against those who see invisible creature, the spell even say that if you are invisible the spell has no effect, they don't mention any exception to those who can see invisible creature.

and with blur the problem is that if i hit the blurry part of the caster i can still miss the caster while if i hit the blurry part of the image i still hit it, but the best i can say with what you just have said might be a 5% miss chance (10% if being very generous) because the blurry part of the image is moving, its the best i can see with the description you just said about the blurry image, but like i said the blurry part is still part of the image unlike the caster


Well, I'll concede the invisibility part, but only because I did some research on my own and found this part here:

See Invisibility wrote:
The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects.

Since the Mirror Images are illusions, then any effect which can see invisibility can bypass mirror images due that they aren't revealed when viewing invisible subjects.

Heck, conversely, an invisible creature doesn't benefit from Blur or Displacement either, for the same exact reason I mentioned above.

However, Invisibility is irrelevant to a caster simply using Mirror Images and Blur/Displacement in conjunction.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image and Miss Chance: If I have a miss chance and a mirror image, how do I combine them?

Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits. For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image. The only exception to this rule is blink and similar effects, which already have some other exceptions from normal miss chances due to moving you to another plane (for instance, unlike other miss chances, blink protects you from targeted effects). The 50% chance to be on the Ethereal Plane protects both the caster and the images.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Makes sense to me.


Yay, I was worried we wouldn't get a FAQ cause of how close to Gencon we are. Even though it's not the question I want answered the most, it's great to see a ruling that makes sense.


I'm having trouble parsing that. Is this saying that images do not benefit from the miss chance (generally)?


Yes, except blink and things like blink.


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DM Livgin wrote:
I'm having trouble parsing that. Is this saying that images do not benefit from the miss chance (generally)?

The FAQ basically says that normal miss chance and mirror images won't work in concert because hitting a mirror image by 5 or less or by random on an actual hit is effectively the same thing as typical miss chance effects. In other words, they don't stack the way we think they stack.

I disagree with the FAQ's premise, on multiple levels at this point, but at least now when someone asks me what the official rule is, I can tell them. (And then point out my disagreement and the logic behind it.)


Agreed.

Sovereign Court

Enemies that stack a thousand miss chance/image effects are tedious. I approve of this FAQ.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Enemies that stack a thousand miss chance/image effects are tedious. I approve of this FAQ.

Tedious, perhaps, but it's the same reason why people stack AC and DR.

The only difference is the manner of which they're applied.

Dark Archive

So for a character attacking a bad guy with 1 mirror image and blur up would be:
Roll attack roll.
If the attack his the defender's AC, roll to see if it hits an image.
If it does not strike an image, roll miss chance from blur.

This the right idea?
How do you describe that to the PC? Are they aware they were attacking the correct guy and only missed due to blur (assuming the PC knows what blur is)?


Ectar wrote:

So for a character attacking a bad guy with 1 mirror image and blur up would be:

Roll attack roll.
If the attack his the defender's AC, roll to see if it hits an image.
If it does not strike an image, roll miss chance from blur.

This the right idea?
How do you describe that to the PC? Are they aware they were attacking the correct guy and only missed due to blur (assuming the PC knows what blur is)?

A bit of a long day, but my reading is that the FAQ stipulates that miss chance typically only comes into play (barring Blink, etc) if the attack roll beats AC and is not already 'defeated' by Mirror Image. It does not operate to protect the images themselves -- just the actual caster. So to make it simple, that means you resolve the mirror image defence first, and then only if that has not already protected the defender do you consider miss chance.

Accordingly, at the risk of making it more complicated than it has to be, I take the sequence as being:

(1) Roll the attack roll.

(2) If the attack roll beats enemy AC, roll to see if it hits an image. Either: (a) The attack roll beats AC and does NOT hit an image, in which case you roll miss chance, and resolve as normal; or (b) The attack roll beats AC and DOES hit an image in which case the attack is defeated at the cost of an image, and you do not consider miss chance.

(3) If the initial attack roll does NOT beat enemy AC, but misses by five or less, it destroys an image. Once again, miss chance plays no role here, and does not protect the image.

(4) If the attack roll does not beat enemy AC and misses by more than five, it misses entirely, and either miss chance nor mirror images have any role.

As to how to describe it, I think that is up to the DM. But I'd describe a miss due to Mirror Image the same way as I would whether Blur (or other miss chance inducing effect) was in place or not: namely that the attack fails to hit the "real" enemy. If the attack fails to miss chance, I'd describe the attacker as having identified the "real" enemy, but missing due to the blurring effect surrounding him/her.

I can appreciate why that might not be super-satisfying, but I do think the FAQ ruling is sensible and straightforward from a game perspective, especially given that it helps rein in the stacking of different "forms" of miss chance.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@The Steel Refrain: That is how I read it as well. You only roll miss chance under normal circumstances when you know an image is not being hit. Missing due to miss chance is therefore just a miss and will not pop an image.


It is a bit disappointing when we get an FAQ that's so hard to parse, that we still aren't sure what the ruling is.


Seems straightforward to me, apart from some vagueness about what constitutes an ability similar to blink. Process blink, then images, then everything else, bailing early on each step if the attack is negated.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

skizzerz wrote:
@The Steel Refrain: That is how I read it as well. You only roll miss chance under normal circumstances when you know an image is not being hit. Missing due to miss chance is therefore just a miss and will not pop an image.

I don't think they actually clarified that part. Missing due to miss chance is still a miss by less than 5, just like potentially a natural 1 could be. Per the natural 1 FAQ, if I have a +30 to hit against an AC of 24, and roll a 1, I have missed by less than 5 and pop an image. Miss chance seems like a similar situation.


ryric wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
@The Steel Refrain: That is how I read it as well. You only roll miss chance under normal circumstances when you know an image is not being hit. Missing due to miss chance is therefore just a miss and will not pop an image.
I don't think they actually clarified that part. Missing due to miss chance is still a miss by less than 5, just like potentially a natural 1 could be. Per the natural 1 FAQ, if I have a +30 to hit against an AC of 24, and roll a 1, I have missed by less than 5 and pop an image. Miss chance seems like a similar situation.

Yeah they cleared this up.

once you've bypassed mirror image check is when blur is then checked. If you miss via blur then the mirror image's aren't affected because you already checked them.
If it's blink then you check that first cause the target and images could be on a different plane.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image and Miss Chance: If I have a miss chance and a mirror image, how do I combine them?

Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits. For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image. The only exception to this rule is blink and similar effects, which already have some other exceptions from normal miss chances due to moving you to another plane (for instance, unlike other miss chances, blink protects you from targeted effects). The 50% chance to be on the Ethereal Plane protects both the caster and the images.

I'm not sure why people are confused by the FAQ response.

Quote:


Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits.

If you missed the target AC you missed, so miss chances do not apply (outside of blink). Pop an image if missed by 5 or less. If you hit a mirror image, you missed the target. So again miss chances do not apply.

Quote:


For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image.

If either missed by 5 or less or you hit the target AC, but rolled the dice and got an image and not the intended target. Miss chance does not apply (again outside of blink). Simply pop an image.

If I pass all those tests, I've now confirmed I've hit (or at least threatened to hit) that target. At this point I have not "missed by 5 or less" or "hit an image". Mirror image no longer comes into play here and neither effects the outcome nor can be effected by the outcome - ie, you cannot pop an image at this point regardless of the miss chance roll. Roll miss chance, either you whiff it, and do not pop any images, or you hit your intended target.

ryric wrote:


Missing due to miss chance is still a miss by less than 5, just like potentially a natural 1 could be.

No, this is a hit that got negated. Not a miss by 5 or less. Its a miss by a completely different calculation. It would work likewise with crane wing (or deflect arrows)/mirror image combo. If the images were bypassed, crane wing negating the hit into a miss doesn't make it a miss by 5 or less - it simply becomes a miss altogether by a mechanic that is not associated with the attack roll. The nat 1 is still part of the attack roll, which is why it can miss by 5 or less.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image and Miss Chance: If I have a miss chance and a mirror image, how do I combine them?

Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits. For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image. The only exception to this rule is blink and similar effects, which already have some other exceptions from normal miss chances due to moving you to another plane (for instance, unlike other miss chances, blink protects you from targeted effects). The 50% chance to be on the Ethereal Plane protects both the caster and the images.

*sigh*

You only have a 20% miss chance from being on the ethereal plane, as per the spell. The other part of the miss chance has to do with concealment. Someone who can see invisibility (but can't attack ethereal creatures) only has a 20% miss chance.

So, once again, if part of the blink chance is due to being on the ethereal plane, and part is due to concealment, how does this interact with mirror image?

I mean, this point has already been brought up in this thread, so I don't understand the FAQ with regard to blink at all. It's not consistent.


How I'd run the blink scenario: (which is indeed not spelled out how it should function for this scenario)

1) Make attack roll
2) If attacker cannot effect ethereal plane
a) Roll 20% miss chance, save this roll for later
3) If miss by 5 or less, pop image.
4) If hit, roll to see if actual target or image, if image pop image
5) If attacker cannot see invisible
a) Check roll made in 2a against 50% OR
b) Make a roll at 20% miss chance
6) Roll damage on target


You realize that 2 20% miss chances are far worse for the caster than a 50% miss chance. It ends up being a total of a 36% miss chance. I have no idea why the Blink spell breaks out the math like that, but if they wanted to actually have it work out right, it should be 30% and 30% separately, and 50% together.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image and Miss Chance: If I have a miss chance and a mirror image, how do I combine them?

Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits. For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image. The only exception to this rule is blink and similar effects, which already have some other exceptions from normal miss chances due to moving you to another plane (for instance, unlike other miss chances, blink protects you from targeted effects). The 50% chance to be on the Ethereal Plane protects both the caster and the images.

*sigh*

You only have a 20% miss chance from being on the ethereal plane, as per the spell. The other part of the miss chance has to do with concealment. Someone who can see invisibility (but can't attack ethereal creatures) only has a 20% miss chance.

So, once again, if part of the blink chance is due to being on the ethereal plane, and part is due to concealment, how does this interact with mirror image?

I mean, this point has already been brought up in this thread, so I don't understand the FAQ with regard to blink at all. It's not consistent.

Targeted spells have a 50% failure chance because you are on the ethereal plane half of the time. For a normal attack, apply the full 50% before anything else.

If you can see invisible creatures, apply 20% miss chance before mirror image. If you can instead attack ethereal creatures apply 20% miss chance after mirror image (due to concealment).


_Ozy_ wrote:
You realize that 2 20% miss chances are far worse for the caster than a 50% miss chance. It ends up being a total of a 36% miss chance. I have no idea why the Blink spell breaks out the math like that, but if they wanted to actually have it work out right, it should be 30% and 30% separately, and 50% together.

Your mundane logic and simple arithmetic cannot provide genuine insight on magic, these tools are too blunt to reveal the true nature of reality. We call our art arcane as only the privileged few truly understand its intricacies and secrets.


KingOfAnything wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image and Miss Chance: If I have a miss chance and a mirror image, how do I combine them?

Miss chances generally only apply when an attack hits. For most miss chances, such as blur, there’s no need to roll them if an attack would hit a mirror image because a hit and a miss by 5 or less would both pop the image. The only exception to this rule is blink and similar effects, which already have some other exceptions from normal miss chances due to moving you to another plane (for instance, unlike other miss chances, blink protects you from targeted effects). The 50% chance to be on the Ethereal Plane protects both the caster and the images.

*sigh*

You only have a 20% miss chance from being on the ethereal plane, as per the spell. The other part of the miss chance has to do with concealment. Someone who can see invisibility (but can't attack ethereal creatures) only has a 20% miss chance.

So, once again, if part of the blink chance is due to being on the ethereal plane, and part is due to concealment, how does this interact with mirror image?

I mean, this point has already been brought up in this thread, so I don't understand the FAQ with regard to blink at all. It's not consistent.

Targeted spells have a 50% failure chance because you are on the ethereal plane half of the time. For a normal attack, apply the full 50% before anything else.

If you can see invisible creatures, apply 20% miss chance before mirror image. If you can instead attack ethereal creatures apply 20% miss chance after mirror image (due to concealment).

Targeted spells have the same 20%/20% miss chance if the attacker can see invisible or affect the ethereal plane somehow.

And once again, using your formula, then why doesn't someone who neither can see invisible nor affect ethereal apply a 20% before and 20% after instead of a 50% chance?

And if he does indeed do that, that's a lot less than the normal 50% miss chance.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
Targeted spells have the same 20%/20% miss chance if the attacker can see invisible or affect the ethereal plane somehow.

Targeted spells are 50% or nothing.

blink wrote:
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures.
Quote:
why doesn't someone who neither can see invisible nor affect ethereal apply a 20% before and 20% after instead of a 50% chance?

Because that is not what blink says. It makes no sense for you to miss the caster for being invisible when you've already determined they are on the material plane. The two go together.


_Ozy_ wrote:
You realize that 2 20% miss chances are far worse for the caster than a 50% miss chance. It ends up being a total of a 36% miss chance.

I realize my answer isn't super clear, but you only roll one set of dice. And it either results in a 20% miss chance (attacker can see invis or can effect ethereal) or an end result of 50% miss chance (attacker can't do either). I guess technically I should make that first roll at 2a a 50% to just miss altogether if they can't do either. But I base my decision on blur taking place after mirror image, so the 'invisibility (but not actually invisible)' part of blink should do likewise.

So no, in this case it isn't actually worse for the caster (other than my noted point about the 'invis' part kicking in after MI like blur does).


KingOfAnything wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Targeted spells have the same 20%/20% miss chance if the attacker can see invisible or affect the ethereal plane somehow.

Targeted spells are 50% or nothing.

blink wrote:
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures.

Um, it's right in the part you quoted, I highlighted it for you.

Quote:
Quote:
why doesn't someone who neither can see invisible nor affect ethereal apply a 20% before and 20% after instead of a 50% chance?
Because that is not what blink says. It makes no sense for you to miss the caster for being invisible when you've already determined they are on the material plane. The two go together.

I agree that's not what the spells says, which is why the FAQ makes no sense when it comes to mirror image. It's inconsistent, that's the whole problem.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Targeted spells have the same 20%/20% miss chance if the attacker can see invisible or affect the ethereal plane somehow.

Targeted spells are 50% or nothing.

blink wrote:
Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures.

Um, it's right in the part you quoted, I highlighted it for you.

In English, a comma between two adjectives can be replaced with the word 'and'. The highlighted part means you must be able to target creatures that are both invisible and ethereal, not one or the other.


Are we allowed to discuss this FAQ? According to this post, the Rules Questions subforum is NOT for

Quote:
Feedback on the FAQ system, or a recent FAQ answer. (You can provide any feedback you have about the FAQ system itself in Website Feedback.)

Does that mean that once a FAQ is posted, we have to stop discussing it here? If not, then what does feedback on a recent FAQ answer mean? And while they do provide a place to provide feedback on the FAQ system, there is no mention of where you are allowed to post feedback on recent FAQ answers. I'm very confused.

It's possible that this post is not allowed here. If so, then I apologize. Given my confusion about the new rules, I couldn't be sure where this topic could be discussed.


References:
FAQ on Nat 1/20
FAQ from this thread
PRD on Concealment
Mirror Image

Mirror Image wrote:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.
Concealment wrote:
Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck.

If the attack roll misses the required value by more than 5, neither Mirror Image nor miss chance trigger. This attack misses, and no image pops.

If the attack roll is better, but not enough to actually hit, it triggers mirror image but not miss chance. This attack pops an image.

If the attack roll is enough to actually hit, it triggers both. Mirror Image determines what it hits. Miss chance clearly applies to the real target, but can be argued on applying to the images.
If you, and not an image, are the target and the miss chance causes a miss, it does not pop an image because the miss is not from the attack roll.
If an image is the target, and you rule miss chance applies, then if the image is missed, it does not pop.
If an image is the target, and you rule miss chance does not apply, then the image pops.

I am not sure on the miss chance applying to the image, so I showed how it works both ways.

/cevah


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The FAQ earlier in this very thread says that miss chance does not apply to images (except for effects where the images are actually not there, such as blink). So, your post could be corrected to:

If the attack roll is enough to actually hit, it triggers both. Mirror Image determines what it hits. Miss chance clearly applies to the real target, but can be argued on applying to the images.
If you, and not an image, are the target and the miss chance causes a miss, it does not pop an image because the miss is not from the attack roll.
If an image is the target, then the image pops. Miss chance is not rolled.

If you take blink into effect, then 50% miss chance (or 20% if the attacker can see invisible creatures) is rolled for the image if you are unable to hit things on the ethereal plane. If you can hit things on the ethereal plane, then no miss chance is taken into effect for images and it works as described above.

The FAQ could be clearer in spelling this out, however.

@Gisher: I would think that we'd be allowed to discuss an FAQ after it's been posted. I believe that is one of the reasons they moved it to FAQ Tuesday so that staff would be around for any immediate fallout of the ruling (things that were missed, unclear wording, riots in the streets, etc.).

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