So I have stumbled upon a couple of threads discussing Tiamat, and IIRC, a few comments were from actual developers working with Paizo who clearly were an important part of the decision process on how to portray Tiamat in Pathfinder. While it's clear she isn't worshipped in ANY traditional sense (even by dragons it seems) it's easy to assume it's best to just worship her through Dahak (as they share an alignment and it's not a stretch to say they likely share favored weapons, sacred colors, domains, subdomains, etc) but on one hand, I recall said Paizo affiliates claiming they did mostly imagine Tiamat's design to resemble the many-chromatic-headed design from D&D, and her lair would again reside in a circle of Hell..... but her former identity as the "salt water" representing chaos cemented her as the Chaotic Evil counterpart to Apsu's Lawful Good.
With this said, wouldn't her lair exist in the Abyss? Or is Golarion so "far from Tiamat's sight", she resides somewhere else? For that matter, Dahak is also Chaotic Evil, but lore suggests Dahak made Hell to his liking, thus making it his home... or do these assumptions overlook that Dahak (and thus Tiamat) both have made their home (s) far from Golarion or the Outer Planes? This is really bothersome confusion lol Any good answers would be sweet lol
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For Domains, Chaos, Evil, Scalykind and Water seem like obvious choices. Darkness might also fit, since Tiamat is associated with a pre-'let there be light' universe, IIRC.
CN or CE for alignment, although obviously, if Tiamat's not evil, then the Evil domain would be out.
I like the idea of her not having a planar domain, but, like Desna, being a material plane deity, resting deep under the ocean. But resting deep within the Maelstrom might also work, if you don't want to use the Abyss.
For favored weapon, claw or pick, perhaps? (I'm trying to think of a weapon that would most 'feel' like a dragon's claw, and pick, or some sort of piercing polearm like a halberd or ranseur, might be cool. None of the weapons feel particularly 'bite' ish, save perhaps the mancatcher, which would be right out...)
Perhaps in a campaign that provided that information as prologue, otherwise, she represents Chaos, and the Metallic Dragons that accepted Tiamat's offer to help Dahak became Evil with a capital E.
Dahak's favored weapon is a "Bite or whip"
So Dahak did make his home in Hell long, long ago, but nothing is said about him currently, and his alignment is CE, if his mother's is too, there's no telling, as an Archdevil has a domain in each of the layers of Hell.
So Dahak did make his home in Hell long, long ago, but nothing is said about him currently, and his alignment is CE, if his mother's is too, there's no telling, as an Archdevil has a domain in each of the layers of Hell.
Dahak is mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths has inhabiting a sort of splintered off demiplane attached to the 8th level of Hell. This sort of extra side layer isn't unprecedented, the Queens of the Night (nee Whore Queens) have similar domains.
Dahak is mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths has inhabiting a sort of splintered off demiplane attached to the 8th level of Hell. This sort of extra side layer isn't unprecedented, the Queens of the Night (nee Whore Queens) have similar domains.
So Dahak did make his home in Hell long, long ago, but nothing is said about him currently, and his alignment is CE, if his mother's is too, there's no telling, as an Archdevil has a domain in each of the layers of Hell.
I feel like this might be asking too much, but could you quote the "Dahak, demiplane" bit from ISF? I can't find a preview on it of that information, and I'd get it myself but my hands are a little tied financially atm =/
If not, I may see if I can get a look at the relevant pages next time I'm able to browse at a book store.
Creative Director
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Tiamat is not officially part of the game at this point—this is to allow GMs who wish to use Tiamat content from D&D in their games without feeling like we at Paizo are going to "override" their work with our version of Tiamat, which if we did anything with her would have to be in a way 100% different from her being a 5 headed dragon from Hell, due to the fact that this particular version of Tiamat is Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property.
Oh, right, but as that lore is still available and unaltered in multiple sources, I'm just seeking the most logical conclusion at the end of what is Paizo's analogue to Tiamat. For example, as Tiamat birthed the first metallic dragons (before they were dragons) and made the chromatic dragons from (a lot of) the fallen, and Tiamat's only physical description that's intact is "multiple heads" - so for me, I've been convinced if not 5-chromatic heads, the imagery I get is either a set of 10 black, blue, brass, bronze, copper, gold, green, red, silver, and white dragon heads, or 5 black, blue, green, red, and white dragon heads that regrow as brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver heads in some sort of sequence similar to a Hydra. Or honestly, as a deity, it's up to her to manifest an avatar with 5 chromatic heads, or one with 5 metallic heads, or one with 5... idk, imperial heads? (Ok, on that last one, I don't even know how any septs beyond chromatic and metallic co-exist with the draconic legends of Apsu, Dahak, & Tiamat, but still)
As a non-entity deity, seems like she matches up with Dahak alright, beside his specific attitude and urge to destroy... if she *were* a deity who garnered worship, she might keep all Dahak's domains maybe only swapping out Destruction for... Protection maybe, as she did protect Dahak from Apsu out of some sort of motherly instinct, also, I don't imagine she has anything against Metallic Dragons, as she and Apsu made them together.
My main interests about Tiamat is what slightly less vague condition she's in as far as What, Where, When, & Why, if it's true Dahak's CE alignment has nothing to do with his choice in home-realms, and he has an earea in Hell to call his own via a deal, I could see Tiamat having done something similar, but as she's removed from plot, presumably something done quite early after the first battle between Apsu & Dahak, so as to keep an eye out for Dahak & Apsu while being out of the picture presumably so Apsu doesn't shame her further and so as not to lead Apsu to Dahak.
Hi, Werefoowolf.
TL;DR: As James said, Tiamat will not be appearing in published Pathfinder material. Feel free to interpret her any way you want for your home game.
Tiamat is from real-world Babylonian mythology. As such, the name is not subject to copyright.
In myth, Tiamat was a goddess of the sea and of the primordial chaotic forces of creation. She was a mother-goddess, bearing children with Apsu, the god of fresh water and a father-god. Apsu became jealous of his divine offspring with Tiamat, and plotted to kill them. Tiamat objected, and birthed seven great beasts to battle Apsu. But another of her sons, Anu, secretly sided with Apsu and betrayed her, destroying the seven great beasts and then killing Tiamat. He divided her body in two: Half of her became the sky, the other the earth, and from her weeping eyes flowed the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
The Tiamat from real-world mythology had absolutely nothing to do with dragons. (Well, aside from one of the seven beasts being a dragon.)
The "5-headed queen of evil dragons" version of Tiamat was an invention of Gary Gygax for Dungeons and Dragons back in the 1970s. And this is the best-known incarnation of Tiamat for players of the D&D family of games.
[As an aside: Gygax was nototious for using the names of creatures from mythology for D&D monsters that had little to do with their mythological stories.]
As Mr. Jacobs pointed out above, the 5-headed dragon version is the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, and can't be used at all in any way by Paizo. While they can use the name itself, as it's from mythology and not subject to copyright, they have to be vague about her story,
So... if you want to include Tiamat in your game-world: Feel free to do whatever you want with her!
I'm partial to doing things with more info than less before I do free-form. I'm aware of all this (though Tiamat as a character clearly needs mentioning in every Dragon Deity origin story, so it's not fair to say she's written out, but I'm well aware she's not getting any new content) as for the description, sources do still leave PF Tiamat with multiple heads, but that's it, the "whatever I want" part is me identifying Tiamat with somehow more than the 5 chromatic dragon heads. I suppose and the concept of domains and such if you wanted her to be worshippable in your own games.
Thing I'm trying to break down is her *likely* location in the multiverse, even if there isn't a confirmed plane/demiplane/planet for her to reside...
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I'm partial to her living/sleeping on the material plane, at the bottom of the sea.
Otherwise, putting her in the Maelstrom makes sense, since she's a primal force of chaos. (The Abyss, less so, since I feel like the resident demon lords would be more likely to stir her up and disturb her rest, while the proteans would seem more likely to sing her sweet lullabies and keep her napping...)
Just to divorce her further from the five-headed dragon of Gygaxian lore, I'd have her either have only a single head, that can change in form to allow her to breathe any breath weapon as a free action, or three heads, similar to the 1st edition Dahak 'three-headed dragon spirit of death' breathing life/creation from one head (positive energy or perhaps lightning, fire or plasma), death/destruction from the opposite head (negative energy or perhaps acid/cold), and some sort of 'return to balance' effect from the center head (a cone shaped dispel magic / disjunction effect?). Add three slapping/constricting tails for the three-headed version, and she's got a triple Ouroborus thing potentially going on.
There's no reason at all for her to have any connection with the Hells (which is pretty wildly off-theme for a power of primordial chaos, IMO), or five chromatic dragon heads (which has been done, and done well, and can be moved past to explore something new, or very, very old).
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"Thereafter, Apsu returned to his mate, ready to demand why she had aided their treacherous son. Yet, instead of the formless salt sea, he found an angry being in a monstrous dragon form, many-faced and writhing with the countenances of seemingly all she had created." Yes, overlooking GM freedom when the time comes to play, this more than suggests that her default form possessed chromatic dragon heads at worst, and chromatic + metallic dragon heads at best.
Hmm, the Maelstrom does seem like a believable location for her rather than the Abyss (it's not like Dahak lives in the Abyss either) and details pertaining to her slumbering for eons or something feel right for her to exist, but also play a part only when GM approves lol
Kind of a side quest(ion): What's the story on the other dragon septs?
Plot twist: Tiamat is Asmodeus. Apsu is Ihys, who isn't actually dead after all.
I probably would have Tiamat as LE. She's clearly evil from the description we do have, but more of a nurturing evil mother-figure, which seems to me opposed to Dahak's almost Rovagug-like "burn it all" stance. LE also makes a lot more sense if she resides in Hell. I can see an argument for NE as well, since NE tends to be defined as selfish above all, and one can sort of see that in her defense of Dahak. It's because he is hers, not because of anything to do with his actions or beliefs.
I wish they had more kids, who could be the patron deities of Outer, Primal, etc dragons. In general I wish there were more dragon deities in Pathfinder.
"In the beginning flowed the two waters, the fresh and the salt. These waters were the first gods, one male, one female, who respectively embodied the forces of Law and the forces of Chaos. Although opposites, the two waters lived in relative harmony, and from their union came the lesser gods."
Beyond GM creativity, Tiamat is absolutely Chaotic by default, however, the only thing pegging her as Evil (debatably) is the fact that Apsu and Tiamat were opposites, and Apsu maybe was but definitely is Lawful Good, so it could have just meant Law vs Chaos opposites, but the metallic dragons who accepted Tiamat's offer became chromatic and cruel and such, particularly Evil with a capital E. Doesn't say that Tiamat was certainly Evil, just accepting Tiamat's offer/deal made them Evil.
Since Dahak is canonically living in Hell as a CE dragon deity, then I feel like the Maelstrom is a good fit for Tiamat whether she's CE, CN, or even CG if she were, though I doubt she's CG...
Where is that line from? It doesn't seem to be in Inner Sea Faiths, unless I'm missing it.
Interestingly, reviewing that source, I note several interesting tidbits:
Dahak is explicitly said to have "traveled to Hell to revel and rampage, turning it into a place of darkness and ever-burning fire." That's interesting. I wonder how Asmodeus felt about Dahak setting his realm on fire (dark fire, at that!). I mean, I guess he liked the change in decor. Or Dahak's fire is just that inextinguishable. (More fuel for my theory that Asmodeus is actually Tiamat-she liked what her eldest did with the place!)
Tiamat is explicitly characterized in Dahak's ISF entry as "betraying the noble Apsu". I guess that could be characterized as a simple Law/Chaos thing, but the way it's phrased certainly suggests evil to me. The fact that her offer of healing corrupted all who accepted it, turning them evil, is also highly suggestive that she herself is evil.
Tiamat is also said to have "expelled [Apsu] from their primordial realm". I see little reason she wouldn't still be in this ancient realm, which I'm guessing is a plane unto itself (since all of the "travel" spoken of in the tales of their ancient deeds are to other planes; Hell, the Material Plane, etc.).
Fortress of the Stone Giants.