Concern: Paizo - You are being too hesitant about Starfinder


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Here is the crux of my concern: I think Paizo is being too hesitant when it comes to their support schedule for Starfinder. Having to wait almost 2 months for the Bestiary\Alien archive AND the first adventure path is bad enough, but then new stuff only coming out on a bimonthly schedule makes it that much worse. It makes it so we cant even start when the main book comes out. We have to just sit around for another 6 weeks waiting to start with our engines idling. FRUSTRATING.

I understand, when the idea was new you folks weren't sure that the community would be into the idea of a science fantasy game, you wanted to not impinge on your regular pathfinder line and its schedule etc. But I think you can see that the response has been by and large not only positive, but hugely so. I have even James and others in interviews saying how surprised you guys have been with just how huge the response has been. That should give you an indication of where the market and the fans are.

I think the core philosophy behind this schedule release and even down to the way the books are conceived needs to change. I mean, to put out the main book without a bestiary and without and AP for nearly two months...its just a tease. All three of those books should drop at once.

Also, one book a month wouldn't kill you OR the production line. I know you plan to have the main "setting" and "supplement" books combined with the AP under the same philosophy of fewer books less often, but that's lame too. I have never enjoyed it when gaming companies released books that players could only look at part of. Palladium was always guilty of that. Each book had a "look no further if you are a player" section. Well that's lame, why would I buy it then if I cant read the whole damn book? It seems financially self defeating for you guys too. Separate out that setting info and put out one additional book so we get one new thing a month.

My main concern is that you are going to lose people to this extra slow creeping publication schedule. I am also concerned that you are going to lose money by making it so the books that you are releasing about the setting, most of the audience cant even read half of so making it pointless for them to buy. And then the setting gets discontinued.
And nobody wants that...
Right?

AtD


Small correction. The first installment of the AP is dropping on release day, part 2 is dropping in October. I do however wish they would have released Alien Archive earlier. It's so inconvenient to have almost nothing to start with on the GM side.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Additionally, I think the draw for some people is that they won't be flooded with things to have to purchase right away. Knowing that the schedule is a bit slower and we won't have 12 different product lines coming at us all at once makes it easier to budget for Starfinder.

Agree that waiting for the Alien Archive is going to be painful.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I believe they have stated they would like to increase production eventually, but being new and due to limits on resources and staff it was implemented the way it currently is for the moment.

As for the setting info being contained to something you're "not supposed to read", they've been doing that since they started Pathfinder, it's not a new tactic for Starfinder. In fact, setting information showing up in the APs is how Golarion got started. With a bunch of information in the blogs and the Starfinder Core Rulebook you have much more starting out than those who originally played RotRL when it first came out.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reckless wrote:

Additionally, I think the draw for some people is that they won't be flooded with things to have to purchase right away. Knowing that the schedule is a bit slower and we won't have 12 different product lines coming at us all at once makes it easier to budget for Starfinder.

Agree that waiting for the Alien Archive is going to be painful.

^ Also this.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It seems like the OP is overthinking it, likely due to overtaxed excitement for the release of Starfinder.

There's plenty of content being released at once and this gives us some time to read through and prepare without feeling rushed. Players also need time to get the materials and familiarize as well.

There's stuff to do in the meantime, such as getting your Starfinder content into MapTool, Realm Works and the like.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Honestly, I can't blame them having some reservation about starting an entirely new product family and determining what the market reaction is before ramping up. This is a huge step from where they started with Pathfinder's release, where they pursued retention of an identified market. There are huge questions with Starfinder, like how much it displaces market share they currently have with Pathfinder vs adds (i.e. how many people stop buying Pathfinder to buy Starfinder), how revenue-positive it ends up being, whether it brings in significant new market share that hasn't been buying Pathfinder, etc.

I'm confident that it's going to be a successful endeavor, but there needs to be a return on investment for production to ramp up. Still, I would have greatly preferred to have Alien Archive earlier, just like everyone else.


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The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Aratrok wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

?

They already do that with their once a moth schedule for Pathfinder APs.


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Rysky wrote:
their once a moth schedule

TIRED OF PAIZO ALWAYS DOING THIS DESNA CRAP. NERF NIGHT MONARCH PLZKTHX

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zyphus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
their once a moth schedule
TIRED OF PAIZO ALWAYS DOING THIS DESNA CRAP. NERF NIGHT MONARCH PLZKTHX

Shouldn't you be off tying someone's shoelaces together?


Rysky wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

?

They already do that with their once a moth schedule for Pathfinder APs.

It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Aratrok wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

?

They already do that with their once a moth schedule for Pathfinder APs.

It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

If you can regularly meet once a week, not all groups can (mine was every other week), plus most GMs will likely appreciate the extra prep time for the next book.


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I'd be more worried about the Alien Archives if there wasn't multiple Pathfinder Bestiaries and a conversion guide. That makes it easy enough to generate all the space beasties you want until the Alien Archives comes out.

EDIT: Also, there will be Starfinder Society scenarios in addition to the AP, too, so you should have plenty of adventures.

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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ShingenX wrote:
Also, there will be Starfinder Society scenarios in addition to the AP, too, so you should have plenty of adventures.

Quite a few Starfinder Society scenarios!

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

I'm impressed that people can actually play a Pathfinder AP at the rate they're published.

I've played in a Skull & Shackles game that I joined in book 2. We're near the end of book 5. I joined it two years ago.

My Reign of Winter game is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the way through Book 6. It's been going for 3 years.

APs have come out at a rate far faster than I can play and GM them, even doing more than one in parallel.


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It would be a mistake to judge enthusiasm based on feedback from fans. If every forum member, every PaizoCon attendee, every podcast listener, all bought every Starfinder product, that's still not enough to support a product line.

We all represent maybe 1% (wild guess) of Paizo customers. No product in memory floods the market with books before they get a PROVEN customer base. Proven, as in, people buying their books.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think some is related sales as mentioned above. I also remember something about staff resources and time also as it relates to release schedule. I do think in year or so Starfinder will be one of the better supported Scfi/Fantasy games.

Dave2


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I enjoy Pathfinder but I gave up getting books because of the number and it not slowing down. I actually got a subscription for Starfinder. I figured it would be great thing for me plus since slower would not feel the wallet pain as much.

I have not got to play an AP with people in person. Tried a few play by post which is slow but a friend of mine who has played APs told me he was not interested in doing more because they take too long. I didn't know people would eat through them. I would be happy to be in a group like that but I have to say that if they are on a slower schedule with better QA then I would be super duper happy with that.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You seem to be under the impression that these are decisions that can be changed rapidly. They can't. Hardcover books are worked on many months in advance and require considerable lead time to get going. Adventure paths as well. Even if Paizo was looking at their advance sales and saying "oops, we totally should have done this faster" it wouldn't matter, because they can't possibly ramp up that schedule in (I suspect) under 6 months or so, because stuff that's being developed now won't actually see print for 6 months. Even if they wanted to double the Starfinder team, hire a bunch of extra freelancers and really put the pedal to the metal it wouldn't be visible for quite some time, and deciding to do that NOW as opposed to in a few months once they actually have some real data on how well Starfinder sells would just be foolish.

A new game line is the sort of thing that can easily break a company. Considering I want Starfinder to be around for the long haul I'm actually quite happy to see that they're playing it safe.


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Yeah, Paizo is successful, but they aren't WotC with Hasbro's coffers backing them. I'd rather Paizo take it slow, get things right, not have developers/freelancers burn out from exhaustion, and have minimal disruption to their core Pathfinder products.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Regarding market interest, during the teaser event in MN, there was about 7-10x the anticipated attendance. I mean, at least there's that. Also, it was at a Barnes and Noble, so who knows if that was suppressing attendance or not.


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Creative writing is not just a skill, it's a labor of love and can be quite tedious if you care at all about trying to craft something that (you hope) will not only be interesting but also internally consistent within the rules you have imagined for your world. You also have to live with the nagging fear of rejection and bad reviews that will inevitably come out. It's your baby and you want it to thrive and win hearts & minds. The hardest thing to do is to step back and let it live or die on its merits, when you have to accept that it has to be good enough deadline or no deadline.

It's hard to give birth to greatness, harder still to rush it or work under pressure from fans and eager critics.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Yeah, Paizo is successful, but they aren't WotC with Hasbro's coffers backing them.

??

WotC produces barely a handful of D&D products a year. Significantly fewer if you don't count the ones outsourced to third parties like Green Ronin or Kobolds.

That said, the starfinder product line looks good to me. PF's production spam is fairly absurd.


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Yeaaahhhhhh. Not counting PFS stuff, they still come out with like, a Campaign Setting, a Player Companion, and a chapter of an Adventure Path every month. It's kind of absurd actually. Gonna cancel my Player Companion soon and my Adventure Path subscription after the next AP is done. Otherwise I'll go poor for Paizo.


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Ahpook The Destroyer wrote:
Here is the crux of my concern: I think Paizo is being too hesitant when it comes to their support schedule for Starfinder. Having to wait almost 2 months for the Bestiary\Alien archive AND the first adventure path is bad enough, but then new stuff only coming out on a bimonthly schedule makes it that much worse. It makes it so we cant even start when the main book comes out. We have to just sit around for another 6 weeks waiting to start with our engines idling. FRUSTRATING.

Either they do it this way or they push the game back until more things are out. How many people do you think are writing for the Starfinder side?

Ahpook The Destroyer wrote:


I understand, when the idea was new you folks weren't sure that the community would be into the idea of a science fantasy game, you wanted to not impinge on your regular pathfinder line and its schedule etc. But I think you can see that the response has been by and large not only positive, but hugely so. I have even James and others in interviews saying how surprised you guys have been with just how huge the response has been. That should give you an indication of where the market and the fans are.

Yes, They are seeing the out pour now. But it takes time to write books and balance them out. I personally wouldn't want a rushed product.

Ahpook The Destroyer wrote:


I think the core philosophy behind this schedule release and even down to the way the books are conceived needs to change. I mean, to put out the main book without a bestiary and without and AP for nearly two months...its just a tease. All three of those books should drop at once.

Once you read a 500+ page book and fully understand the rules that should give you enough to play around with until the next one comes out. Plus they said there will be a guide to convert monsters over. I mean what could you possibility need in 3 separate books all at once?

Ahpook The Destroyer wrote:


Also, one book a month wouldn't kill you OR the production line. I know you plan to have the main "setting" and "supplement" books combined with the AP under the same philosophy of fewer books less often, but that's lame too. I have never enjoyed it when gaming companies released books that players could only look at part of. Palladium was always guilty of that. Each book had a "look no further if you are a player" section. Well that's lame, why would I buy it then if I cant read the whole damn book? It seems financially self defeating for you guys too. Separate out that setting info and put out one additional book so we get one new thing a month.

My main concern is that you are going to lose people to this extra slow creeping...

You shouldn't be using the books as a crutch. I am sure you will think of some great ideas and you will have plenty to play with.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

AD&D (1st Edition)
Monster Manual 1977
Player's Handbook 1978
Dungeon Master's Guide 1979
Unearthed Arcana 1985

And we have to wait for book two what-2 Months? Millennials and their instant gratification...

Why, I remember in my day we had to write our own adventures while walking to school barefoot uphill in the snow..BOTH WAYS!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Captain Yesterday fun fact: I used to walk 4.5 miles to work, uphill and often through the snow.

This was ten years ago. :-)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given what TSR did to themselves, a cautious pace on products that may well be competing for a lone gamer's wallet contents is a pretty understandable course to chart.


Edenwaith wrote:

AD&D (1st Edition)

Monster Manual 1977
Player's Handbook 1978
Dungeon Master's Guide 1979
Unearthed Arcana 1985

And we have to wait for book two what-2 Months? Millennials and their instant gratification...

Why, I remember in my day we had to write our own adventures while walking to school barefoot uphill in the snow..BOTH WAYS!

I was going to look this up! hahaha. Awesome job.


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Something to remember is that sci fi RPGs don't do nearly as well as fantasy, since fantasy is generally the status quo that many people think of when you say RPG or D&D. So it is good that they are remaining cautious about the release schedule. Sci fi games are niche in an already niche hobby.

Grand Lodge

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Launch with an adventure path, 3 scenarios, and quest. That looks to be about 40 hours of game play AT LAUNCH. I'm frankly quite pleased with the amount of material that exists. If you need more than that, consider yourself fortunate to be able to get a group together that frequently. Also, write your own adventures if needed.


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Alternatively while waiting, you could play Pathfinder.


I'm not planning on buying any additional products until I have fully digested the CRB, and probably run an adventure (which I am perfectly capable of writing myself) to see how well it works.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I never run APs until I have all 6 issues, so the schedule isn't really a concern. Heck, I can't imagine running an AP as it comes out.


Yeah I definetly need time to read through the CRB and then do some planning. This is however one of the few adventure paths I intend to pick up. The spacing will be nicer on my wallet.


I don't find the Alien Archive to be extremely urgent:

First Contact with like 12 aliens is already out (and free).
Starfinder's CRB will contain races and classes for PCs which also work for NPCs.
The first AP volume will have the usual bestiary alien entry.

Ok, a real bestiary alien archive book still offers way more options, but for the first steps limited choice is probably better. There is enough other content to get familiar with...


To be honest, I am not a big AP fan since the whole thing felt too restrictive with the parties I tried them with.
Not sure if we got the wrong ones maybe...well...
But it really hurts a little to wait so long for tha AA, totally agreeing with that, even though since the crb will (hopefully) have monster creation rules (i think correct me if i am wrong) there should be enough stuff possible until I get my hands on it :P


Voss wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Yeah, Paizo is successful, but they aren't WotC with Hasbro's coffers backing them.

??

WotC produces barely a handful of D&D products a year. Significantly fewer if you don't count the ones outsourced to third parties like Green Ronin or Kobolds.

That said, the starfinder product line looks good to me. PF's production spam is fairly absurd.

My point wasn't who produces more product (which is Paizo), but that WotC (backed by Hasbro) can afford financial risks that Paizo cannot.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I will be spending the time converting Curse of the Crimson Throne to Starfinder ☺


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Dansome wrote:
I will be spending the time converting Curse of the Crimson Throne to Starfinder ☺

Please share this when you do so.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
I never run APs until I have all 6 issues, so the schedule isn't really a concern. Heck, I can't imagine running an AP as it comes out.

Very reasonable choice. I find entirely too often that there are details sussed out in later books of the AP that are extremely relevant to the priors.


Especially with how many APs tend to leave out all mention of the end-boss until books 4-6.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Voss wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Yeah, Paizo is successful, but they aren't WotC with Hasbro's coffers backing them.

??

WotC produces barely a handful of D&D products a year. Significantly fewer if you don't count the ones outsourced to third parties like Green Ronin or Kobolds.

That said, the starfinder product line looks good to me. PF's production spam is fairly absurd.

My point wasn't who produces more product (which is Paizo), but that WotC (backed by Hasbro) can afford financial risks that Paizo cannot.

But they can't. Hasbro doesn't back the D&D line for financial risks. Hasbro cares about M:TG as a Franchise Product, and Wizards is allowed to play around with D&D as long as the product line doesn't go into the red. They're down to a tiny staff (around 7), the novel line is gone, and most of the few 'D&D products' are licensed to further distance Wizards from financial costs. From Hasbro's PoV, D&D is a trivial something to mention obliquely in the annual report, while they focus on things that actually bring in millions.

It's very unlikely Wizards would be able to do a product like Starfinder (or Gamma World, Alternity, D&D Modern or any of the tons of rpg and rpg related products they used to do per year), ever again, unless Hasbro decides to sell off the company, which they won't while M:TG brings in its monies (better than Monopoly, these days). They fight force Wizards to sell the IP though, but there isn't much reason to do so.


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continued WotC derail:
Voss wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Voss wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Yeah, Paizo is successful, but they aren't WotC with Hasbro's coffers backing them.

??

WotC produces barely a handful of D&D products a year. Significantly fewer if you don't count the ones outsourced to third parties like Green Ronin or Kobolds.

That said, the starfinder product line looks good to me. PF's production spam is fairly absurd.

My point wasn't who produces more product (which is Paizo), but that WotC (backed by Hasbro) can afford financial risks that Paizo cannot.

But they can't. Hasbro doesn't back the D&D line for financial risks. Hasbro cares about M:TG as a Franchise Product, and Wizards is allowed to play around with D&D as long as the product line doesn't go into the red. They're down to a tiny staff (around 7), the novel line is gone, and most of the few 'D&D products' are licensed to further distance Wizards from financial costs. From Hasbro's PoV, D&D is a trivial something to mention obliquely in the annual report, while they focus on things that actually bring in millions.

It's very unlikely Wizards would be able to do a product like Starfinder (or Gamma World, Alternity, D&D Modern or any of the tons of rpg and rpg related products they used to do per year), ever again, unless Hasbro decides to sell off the company, which they won't while M:TG brings in its monies (better than Monopoly, these days). They fight force Wizards to sell the IP though, but there isn't much reason to do so.

WotC's D&D line(s) is in nearly the same position as DC's and Marvel's comics. Neither's comics contribute much more than a blip to their respective (much larger) corporation's bottom line, but they are a rich source of IP for video games and movies. And Hasbro may occasionally license out IP, but they do not sell off IP ever. But... if Hasbro believed WotC had a runaway hit on their hands, you can bet they'd exercise their considerable capital and marketing leverage to get that product out there in huge numbers. If it failed, Hasbro can afford to eat those losses. They can even afford to shutter WotC entirely.

Paizo can't, which isn't a knock on Paizo (or Lisa, Vic, or anyone there); it's just reality. I think sometimes people forget just how small our TTRPG hobby really is.

All of which is a long meandering path to this: Paizo is one of the heavyweight champs, if not The Champ, in the TTRPG industry. But the TTRPG industry is a tiny niche overall, and Paizo is quite small and as lean as possible. They have to be cautious how they develop their products and expend their limited resources. Lisa, Vic, and the Gang are smart cookies, and they aren't going to leave money on the table (or in our wallets/bank accounts) if they can help it.

Edit: I think we're talking past each other now, so I'll just drop it. :)


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Aratrok wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

?

They already do that with their once a moth schedule for Pathfinder APs.

It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

We meet regularly and it takes about 1 year for one AP volume ;)


I also wish we had alien archive now to make adventures, which is why I intend to run the sfs sceneries with my group to get them used to the game first before diving into the bigger stuff like APs and whatever I come up with


One of the ways science fiction games tend to differ from fantasy is you spend more time fighting "people" of various kinds than fighting "monsters". You don't need a vast menagerie to make an adventure, you just need some NPCs with objectives that will put them into conflict with the players.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zyphus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
their once a moth schedule
TIRED OF PAIZO ALWAYS DOING THIS DESNA CRAP. NERF NIGHT MONARCH PLZKTHX

HEY!!!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

With 6 potential adventures to run right out of the gate plus core book I think the pace is fine. Hell what is dropping the first month right now is a bit overwhelming. Id of loved to subbed to everything as I intend to get it all eventually but my poor wallet cant take it. I for one am glad its not any more of a front heavy release than it is.

However the real reason that has been highlighted many times in this thread is the reality that Starfinder was and is a big risk for them. They had no way of gauging how well it was going to be received. Far, far better and safer for them to start small and ramp up production with demand. If anything it creates even more demand as people are eager for more releases then over saturating their player base from the get go.

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