Concern: Paizo - You are being too hesitant about Starfinder


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rknop wrote:

I'm impressed that people can actually play a Pathfinder AP at the rate they're published.

I've played in a Skull & Shackles game that I joined in book 2. We're near the end of book 5. I joined it two years ago.

My Reign of Winter game is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the way through Book 6. It's been going for 3 years.

APs have come out at a rate far faster than I can play and GM them, even doing more than one in parallel.

My group meets every two weeks for about 4 hours ; we are just now hitting book 6 of Hell's Rebels, and we started the very month it was released in August of 2015. Unless someone is playing 30 or 40 hours a month, i'm hard pressed to understand how someone is getting through one book of an AP in a month. Not saying you can't, I'm just having a hard time visualizing it.

Even then, there's plenty of resources to work in side quests, GMs to expand the material presented, etc. Unless the Starfinder APs are drastically shorter than the PF ones, my group will probably be just fine.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I personally accepted the slower release schedule because Paizo doesn't want to go the same way TSR did, releasing too many products lines that ended up competing with each other.

After 10 years of doing Pathfinder they are doing their first separate product line and being smart about it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ENHenry wrote:
rknop wrote:

I'm impressed that people can actually play a Pathfinder AP at the rate they're published.

I've played in a Skull & Shackles game that I joined in book 2. We're near the end of book 5. I joined it two years ago.

My Reign of Winter game is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the way through Book 6. It's been going for 3 years.

APs have come out at a rate far faster than I can play and GM them, even doing more than one in parallel.

My group meets every two weeks for about 4 hours ; we are just now hitting book 6 of Hell's Rebels, and we started the very month it was released in August of 2015. Unless someone is playing 30 or 40 hours a month, i'm hard pressed to understand how someone is getting through one book of an AP in a month. Not saying you can't, I'm just having a hard time visualizing it.

Even then, there's plenty of resources to work in side quests, GMs to expand the material presented, etc. Unless the Starfinder APs are drastically shorter than the PF ones, my group will probably be just fine.

I ran a table of four through Hell's Rebels, meeting on the same schedule generally as your group, and we routinely finished enough content to level every session. One of the players has ADD and is a teenager, so he had difficulty focusing if we didn't stay on the rails. We averaged 3-4 sessions per book.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Aratrok wrote:
It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

In the two AP I've played, we completed 6 books in 2 years to 2.5 years.

In all the other stories of locals completing an AP, they all took over a year and most took 2 years or more.

In both of these examples above, the groups played weekly.

I can't comprehend completing a book in 3 weeks. How is that possible? Is the GM walking you through it?

Quote:
Ok, that was a fun combat. You search the room and find with your passive perception the clues you need to learn these were not the real baddies. The real one is over there. You rest. You go over there. Roll initiative!

Is that how your games go?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Pax Rafkin wrote:
No product in memory floods the market with books before they get a PROVEN customer base. Proven, as in, people buying their books.

Maybe I'm too old, but I well remember TSR's Birthright campaign... as in I remember the products taking up large portions of the shelves at the local Hastings, but I don't remember anyone actually buying/playing any of them...


If Starfinder is a balls out success then Paizo has time to adjust. It's not like there are four other space opera RPGs that will swoop in and steal Starfinder's thunder.

I really hope they keep the product lines restrained though as Pathfinder is overwhelming. A much better way to 'ramp up' would be to increase the size of the AP and bring it out faster maybe.


Anaba Boeska wrote:
Launch with an adventure path, 3 scenarios, and quest. That looks to be about 40 hours of game play AT LAUNCH. I'm frankly quite pleased with the amount of material that exists. If you need more than that, consider yourself fortunate to be able to get a group together that frequently. Also, write your own adventures if needed.

Most first person shooters with a single player or co-op component (or any storyboarded game for that matter) are designed to aim for X number of hours cumulative from beginning to end. Game designers also have to balance complexity and problem solving (make it too hard and you will lose future sales, too easy and the player may feel cheated of a challenge). Unless there's a multiplayer component, if the game is really well made, you can expect maybe up to 36 hours of unrepeated content from a product that costs at least $50 or $60 at release. With mission packs/addons the content time is even less.


You don't have the facility to write you own stories with a first person shooter. I can get an infinite number of hours of gameplay out of the CRB alone.


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This isn't a video game.


Aqua Zesty Man wrote:
Anaba Boeska wrote:
Launch with an adventure path, 3 scenarios, and quest. That looks to be about 40 hours of game play AT LAUNCH. I'm frankly quite pleased with the amount of material that exists. If you need more than that, consider yourself fortunate to be able to get a group together that frequently. Also, write your own adventures if needed.
Most first person shooters with a single player or co-op component (or any storyboarded game for that matter) are designed to aim for X number of hours cumulative from beginning to end. Game designers also have to balance complexity and problem solving (make it too hard and you will lose future sales, too easy and the player may feel cheated of a challenge). Unless there's a multiplayer component, if the game is really well made, you can expect maybe up to 36 hours of unrepeated content from a product that costs at least $50 or $60 at release. With mission packs/addons the content time is even less.

I'm not entirely sure what the goal of this post was, but just gonna point out that by its very nature Starfinder is going to have that multiplayer component that gives it infinite replayability.


Aratrok wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
The thing that bugs me most is the AP books being released every other month. That's insane. Paizo is effectively asking people to put their campaigns on pause and wait in-between books, or hold off on playing it at all until most of it is out already.

?

They already do that with their once a moth schedule for Pathfinder APs.

It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

yeah, i miss the the good old days, when we played once a week :(

Sadly it comes down to once every 2 months now.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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The funny thing is that just over a year ago we were busily assuaging people's fears that all the Starfinder stuff we were working on was going to make Pathfinder suffer.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shinmizu wrote:
Maybe I'm too old, but I well remember TSR's Birthright campaign... as in I remember the products taking up large portions of the shelves at the local Hastings, but I don't remember anyone actually buying/playing any of them...

I loved that campaign but never got to play it but one time. It did not fit how most people played in my group.

I am glad I am not the only one that is glad Starfinder is releasing slower than Pathfinder.

Liberty's Edge

Robbgobb wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Maybe I'm too old, but I well remember TSR's Birthright campaign... as in I remember the products taking up large portions of the shelves at the local Hastings, but I don't remember anyone actually buying/playing any of them...

I loved that campaign but never got to play it but one time. It did not fit how most people played in my group.

I am glad I am not the only one that is glad Starfinder is releasing slower than Pathfinder.

If there are lucky people out there who can play as often and fast, they can play many other RPG games (Pathfinder included) in the mean time, or write their own adventures. For my group, even if we could play every week I know for sure that it would take morae than one month for each AP. They really like going deep and slow on the details, role playing and social interactions aspects of the game.


Vic Wertz wrote:
The funny thing is that just over a year ago we were busily assuaging people's fears that all the Starfinder stuff we were working on was going to make Pathfinder suffer.

Good problem to have though, yeah?


Vic Wertz wrote:
The funny thing is that just over a year ago we were busily assuaging people's fears that all the Starfinder stuff we were working on was going to make Pathfinder suffer.

Face it Vic,

You all managed to create quite a buzz. I really hope Starfinder proves to be as profitable as PF and gets the same kind of attention. You've already sold me... The rest of my gaming table is still a little less informed but optimistic. Keep working that Paizo magic.


Yeah my group spent a little over a year and only got half way through Hell's Rebels since people were moving. We meet weekly, but can only manage around 2 hour sessions. 2 months a book is fine by me.

In general I get why they are taking it slow, and appreciate it since my wallet is already taxed as is.

Dark Archive

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Honestly I think if the response is strong I wouldn't mind if they scaled back on the Pathfinder companions and campaign setting books, still new stuff but a slower pace would be good, maybe even 1 less hard cover per year and increase the Starfinder content.


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As someone who's already committed a few hundred dollars to starfinder (multiple copies of the core for my players plus subscriptions), I feel the need to point out that I never dived into pathfinder. Part of what drew me to invest in starfinder was the setting, part of it was the reliable reputation of paizo, and part was the release schedule. I hope they continue at the advertised pace for a good long while, and am grateful so many have voiced similar desires.


I echo nuttallfun. Just make the AP larger Paizo peoples! Pathfinder honestly kind of intimidates me with all the different lines that come out for it.

Liberty's Edge

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Azih wrote:
I echo nuttallfun. Just make the AP larger Paizo peoples! Pathfinder honestly kind of intimidates me with all the different lines that come out for it.

That's the reason I subscribed to Starfinder, because it looks way more reasonable to fit in my budget at that pace. Pathfinder release speed is way too intimidating.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Beyond all the other valid reasons people have listed for Paizo to have a more reduced release schedule for Starfinder compared to Pathfinder....do they even have the staff to run the Starfinder line at the same production rate as Pathfinder? It seems like they are just barely able to handle the current workflow, and IIRC they just lost at least two major longtime staff members recently.

Paizo really does produce an amazing amount of high quality product for the number of folks they employ. But they are still human...

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:

Beyond all the other valid reasons people have listed for Paizo to have a more reduced release schedule for Starfinder compared to Pathfinder....do they even have the staff to run the Starfinder line at the same production rate as Pathfinder? It seems like they are just barely able to handle the current workflow, and IIRC they just lost at least two major longtime staff members recently.

Paizo really does produce an amazing amount of high quality product for the number of folks they employ. But they are still human...

I dunno, Chris is a Robot.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

And Cosmo is a Friendly Neighborhood Eldritch Horror.


James Risner wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
It's totally reasonable to take a month to complete an AP book, playing once a week. Every group I'd played with or ran for has completed books in 3-5 weeks of play. That means- at least for every group I've played with since 2009- we'd have to do something else for 3-5 weeks in-between books, which sucks.

In the two AP I've played, we completed 6 books in 2 years to 2.5 years.

In all the other stories of locals completing an AP, they all took over a year and most took 2 years or more.

In both of these examples above, the groups played weekly.

I can't comprehend completing a book in 3 weeks. How is that possible? Is the GM walking you through it?

Quote:
Ok, that was a fun combat. You search the room and find with your passive perception the clues you need to learn these were not the real baddies. The real one is over there. You rest. You go over there. Roll initiative!
Is that how your games go?

We do about 1 book per month.

We play weekly, about 5 to 6 hours per session. Sometimes we make a marathon session, like 8 to 10 hours, but those are not common (maybe 1 every 2 months or so)

Another thing that helps, is removing the XP, and just leveling up when the AP says you that you should level up (like, "The characters should be level 5 before they go to the Whatever Tower in Whocares Island")

That way, we can ignore many of the "this encounter is here just to give you XP" encounters that bloat many AP, with "random encounter like" scripted encounters with low threat creatures with no relationship with the plot, who are there just because you need to fill an XP budget. We do only the combat encounters that I (the GM) find interesting, or related to the story.

Being old school enough to remember how to play without grid also helps. "Low threat" combats are done without a grid, and it helps a lot, because I find that often you spend more time drawing the corridor with the 2 gobling guards, that killing the two gobling guards.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ladis wrote:
Azih wrote:
I echo nuttallfun. Just make the AP larger Paizo peoples! Pathfinder honestly kind of intimidates me with all the different lines that come out for it.
That's the reason I subscribed to Starfinder, because it looks way more reasonable to fit in my budget at that pace. Pathfinder release speed is way too intimidating.

Same here. Having just two subscriptions (one for each system) is already enough to strain my wallet. I appreciate the slower pace of Starfinder releases.

Paizo Employee Sales Associate

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Reckless wrote:

And Cosmo is a Friendly Neighborhood Eldritch Horror.

...


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Cosmo wrote:
Reckless wrote:

And Cosmo is a Friendly Neighborhood Eldritch Horror.

...

I run a good PR campaign ^w^

Grand Lodge

so i started a group of 6 on rise of rune lords about 2 years ago and after losing players and gaining players we are at 4 players and just near the 2nd half of the 2nd chapter. I asked my players about Starfinder and they all wanna play but they want to play this AP too, so i am glad for the delay in release gives me time to run both games and its not like we can fin one fast anyways. Also an AP is great but you have to add more to it or your players get tired of feeling railroaded and you have to add flavor for your players to make them feel apart of the world and that what they are doing is effecting the world around them. Also if you have a group that just likes to kill stuff and move on they are going to fin fast, givem more to kill, make them evil, or make it where people are afraid of them due to their blood lust.

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