Sensei Monk : I would like to love my Insightful Strike.


Advice


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I'm seeking an interesting way to use the Insightful Strike ability of my monk's sensei archetype, and can't find actually any.

I would truly love to use it for RP reasons, but it seems to severely impair my usefulness in combat compared to using strength, especialy since the campaigns I'm playing do not give access tothe full catalog of magical items (so no item adding WIS to damage)

Is there a way to actually make an efficient Sensei using Advice, Lingering performance and Insightful Strike?


You could concentrate on a combat maneuver - aside from grappling those don't rely on damage. You could concentrate on buffing, consider using the Ouat archetype as well, or even aiming for the battle herald PrC. You could throw a starknife (harrow warden archetype & guided star feat). You could use the drunken master archetype for a little extra damage.

Druid 4 / sensei monk 2 with the shaping focus feat could be fun. Advance whichever you prefer after 6th level, and with your high wisdom look into touch attack spells with saves.


It's disappointing that neither Sensei Monk nor Evangelist Cleric have wording in their respective bardic performance abilities that let them stack with other bardic performance class abilities. Otherwise that might be an interesting Clonk build.


Avr:

Harrow Warden is not compatible with Sensei because they both replace Improved Evasion.

While shapeshifted, I think you use your natural weapons to attack and natural weapons are not monk weapons, so you cannot use Insightful Strike with them, so your Druid multiclassing probably don't work either.

For combat maneuvers, I thought about it, but I see no way to make even one efficient without Maneuver Master, Tetori, Wildcat or Master of Many Styles... and all those are also not compatible with Sensei.
Do you have something specific in mind?


Monk Sensei 2/Crossblooded Empyreal Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple? Mostly with Transmutation spells to boost monk weapon damage? At least with Wisdom added your CMB and CMD would be decent. Your BAB would be awful, though.


You're right about the harrow warden, missed that.

Elementals can use weapons. Wild shape into one and you're set. Or if you can persuade your GM to use the pre-nerf feral combat training you can use natural weapons. I don't think there are good arguments for not being able to use weapons as an ape either, apes do have opposable thumbs, and a druid wildshaping has enough brains to use weapons.

As far as a combat maneuver goes let's think about a human using dirty tricks.

1: Dirty fighting
Human: Improved dirty trick
Monk 1: IUS, stunning fist, combat reflexes
3: Kitsune style
Qinggong power 4: Barkskin
5: Kitsune tricks
Qinggong power 5: Acrobatic steps
7: Weapon trick (one-handed)
9: Greater dirty trick
11: Kitsune vengeance
Qinggong power 11: Lunge

No, I hadn't worked it out beforehand, but it looks OK to me. Mobility & defence with competent use of dirty tricks.


What about Sensei 2 into Nature Fang Druid? Slayer talents give you Ranger Combat Style to pick up the Dirty Trick chain without needing Int. You give up wildshape, but gain a bunch of bonus feats and studied target to offset your 3/4 BAB. Stacked on top of Wisdom to attack and Druid spellcasting at -2 caster levels, you're still looking pretty healthy.

1: ???
M1: IUS, Stunning Fist, ???
3: ???
5: ???
6: Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style (Underhanded): Combat Expertise
7: Improved Dirty Trick
8: Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style (Underhanded): Greater Dirty Trick
9: Kitsune Style
10: Slayer Talent - Rogue Talent - Combat Trick: Kitsune Tricks
11: Kitsune Vengeance
12: Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style (Underhanded): Greater Dirty Trick

Scarab Sages

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Take Mantis Style and focus on stunning Fist. You have higher accuracy and DCs than most monks because you are wisdom primary, have an in-class accuracy boost, and have taken D.C. Boosting feats in Mantis style. You're not doing much damage, but you are great at debuffing while acting as a force multiplier for the rest of the party.


@Avr & JDlPF:

Those multi classings could work, but I feel like I then lose everything which is good in the sensei archetype (high level advices and mystical wisdom) just to make the poor parent Insightful Strike work...

(But I had a laugh thinking about a druid sensei with a wooden quarterstaff and shapeshifting into a fire elemental)

@Imbicatus:

I'd prefer to use Marid Style if I chose to rely on special monk punchs: combined with the Four Winds archetype, it fixes the damage by adding both extra d6s and adding wisdom to damage, and also apply conditions.
Plus you can punch people from the back line while giving advices this way.

However both stunning and elemental fists deplete just too fast and relying on them for the main course just make the usefulness of the Sensei short lived, IMHO.

Liberty's Edge

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With the Sensei I think you are generally better off multi-archetyping rather than multi-classing.

For example: Sensei / Monk of the Four Winds / Drunken Master / Qinggong

Share 'Slow Time' with the party, drink to replenish ki, use Neutralize Poison to remove penalties so you can keep drinking, share 'Wholeness of Body' to heal everyone, et cetera.

Or... spend 2 Ki and a standard action to give the whole party Wholeness of Body, 1 Ki and a move action to pull the Wizard out of trouble with Abundant Step, and 1 Ki and a swift action to give the Rogue Fast Movement... all in a single turn... while also maintaining Advice as a free action.


CBDunkerson wrote:

With the Sensei I think you are generally better off multi-archetyping rather than multi-classing.

For example: Sensei / Monk of the Four Winds / Drunken Master / Qinggong

Share 'Slow Time' with the party, drink to replenish ki, use Neutralize Poison to remove penalties so you can keep drinking, share 'Wholeness of Body' to heal everyone, et cetera.

Or... spend 2 Ki and a standard action to give the whole party Wholeness of Body, 1 Ki and a move action to pull the Wizard out of trouble with Abundant Step, and 1 Ki and a swift action to give the Rogue Fast Movement... all in a single turn... while also maintaining Advice as a free action.

From everything I can tell, however, using your Ki abilities on others requires you to use both Ki and Advice and the action for each. Meaning you're using a Standard/Move/Swift (at 1/7/13th level) for Advice in addition to the Ki power's action. And, using Advice for this seems to also end any ongoing Advice you have going on (like Inspire Courage). I'd love to be wrong, as I've been eyeing a Sensei monk for years without pulling the trigger, but the results of my posted questions to the Rules Forum and Mark Seifter have led me to these conclusions.


If your advice is already active, you free action maintain it. It just needs to be going to do any ki power sharing.

(using the normal actions for each) is referring to each ki power.


My Carrion Crown Sensei used power attack, and was the second hardest hitter in the party, due to also being a Monk of the four winds. So frequent Elemental Fists, he also used Ignan style, so did 1d6 fire even when he missed (which was rare).

Sadly he died to

spoiler:
Tik Swarm, those little guys sucked his high con right out of him


plaidwandering wrote:

If your advice is already active, you free action maintain it. It just needs to be going to do any ki power sharing.

(using the normal actions for each) is referring to each ki power.

I've never seen it read that way.

Mystic Wisdom: "At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each)..."

So you need to USE your advice ability (not just have it active for a different effect/'song'. And 'each' seems like it certainly applies to "use his advice ability" and "activate a class ability", rather than to "each ki power" which it refers to only in the singular.

As much as I'd like you to be right, I don't see your interpretation there at all... unless you're parsing things a different way?

Liberty's Edge

DrakeRoberts wrote:
So you need to USE your advice ability (not just have it active for a different effect/'song'.

So... you're suggesting that 'Mystic Wisdom' is actually a new type of 'bardic performance' like 'Inspire Courage' or 'Inspire Greatness'? That is, it would require any other performance to be ended and the new 'Mystic Wisdom performance' begun as a standard (or quicker at higher levels) action?

Generally, I'd think that if that was the intent then Mystic Wisdom would have been listed as a type of performance rather than a separate class ability. The requirement of spending ki points (and expending additional actions) also seems inconsistent with such a view.

Quote:
And 'each' seems like it certainly applies to "use his advice ability" and "activate a class ability", rather than to "each ki power" which it refers to only in the singular.

This I can't follow at all. It seems clear that "each" refers to activating class abilities... you need to spend the associated ki points and required action for each such ability. The way you describe it would actually make this ability radically MORE powerful... potentially allowing a 13th level Sensei to spend a swift action to give his entire party the benefits of a standard or even full round action.

Silver Crusade

CBDunkerson wrote:

With the Sensei I think you are generally better off multi-archetyping rather than multi-classing.

For example: Sensei / Monk of the Four Winds / Drunken Master / Qinggong

Share 'Slow Time' with the party, drink to replenish ki, use Neutralize Poison to remove penalties so you can keep drinking, share 'Wholeness of Body' to heal everyone, et cetera.

Or... spend 2 Ki and a standard action to give the whole party Wholeness of Body, 1 Ki and a move action to pull the Wizard out of trouble with Abundant Step, and 1 Ki and a swift action to give the Rogue Fast Movement... all in a single turn... while also maintaining Advice as a free action.

This is pretty much my Sensei build. I especially like the ability to share Slow Time with the whole party. Think I'm going to try it with a Vanara.

Between drunken strength and elemental fist you'll do OK for damage, but you're mainly a buffer and force multiplier.


CBDunkerson wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
So you need to USE your advice ability (not just have it active for a different effect/'song'.

So... you're suggesting that 'Mystic Wisdom' is actually a new type of 'bardic performance' like 'Inspire Courage' or 'Inspire Greatness'? That is, it would require any other performance to be ended and the new 'Mystic Wisdom performance' begun as a standard (or quicker at higher levels) action?

Generally, I'd think that if that was the intent then Mystic Wisdom would have been listed as a type of performance rather than a separate class ability. The requirement of spending ki points (and expending additional actions) also seems inconsistent with such a view.

Quote:
And 'each' seems like it certainly applies to "use his advice ability" and "activate a class ability", rather than to "each ki power" which it refers to only in the singular.
This I can't follow at all. It seems clear that "each" refers to activating class abilities... you need to spend the associated ki points and required action for each such ability. The way you describe it would actually make this ability radically MORE powerful... potentially allowing a 13th level Sensei to spend a swift action to give his entire party the benefits of a standard or even full round action.

Not exactly. The interpretation I've seen come up most (though, in reviewing past posts, it's not by much) is that "each" refers to the Advice Ability and the Ki-Activated Class Ability. So you would need to spend the appropriate action for each, the Ki for the ability, AND a round of Advice.

That is from this: "At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself."

So you activate Wholeness of Body (using 2 ki and a standard action), and that lets you use your advice ability (move action at level 7, costs a use of advice) to have it affect one ally within 30' of yourself.

THAT SAID....

The next section which reads: "At 10th level, a sensei may instead spend 1 point from his ki pool (as a swift action) while using advice to provide a single ally within 30 feet with evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, or slow fall." talks about spending the ki (and swift action that ki abilities default to) while using advice (rather than the other way around), which certainly sounds more in line with the idea of Mystic Wisdom being usable so long as Advice is active/maintained (could you use it while letting Advice linger via Lingering Performance?).

I'll admit that it is unclear if, even given the double spend method (which frankly I think is the best interpretation of the "using the normal actions required for each" clause... although, perhaps the free action maintain covers the clause too), whether it would end an ongoing performance. To me, that argument is similar to the masterpiece/performance argument (except this specifies that you're using Advice, not just spending a use of it... but that's pretty heavy on semantics).

For what it's worth, my original interpretation was not the one I proposed above, but rather what I gathered from others online in the rules forums when posing the question in the past.


I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea that advice ends. Nothing ever even remotely related to that is said in the descriptions.

Liberty's Edge

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To me, the scenario that seems most likely is that the "use his advice ability" clause was meant to be descriptive rather than specifying ANY sort of rules interaction. That is... 'not only can the Sensei share the equivalent of bardic performances just by giving advice to his team-mates, but he can actually grant them use of monk class abilities'... and THEN it goes in to the rules about how that actually works.

Ergo, no requirement that the Advice CLASS FEATURE even be active or have rounds remaining in order to use Mystic Wisdom. They are mechanically separate abilities (one based on performance rounds and the other based on ki points) which are thematically linked in that advice the Sensei imparts provides significant benefits.


CBDunkerson wrote:

For example: Sensei / Monk of the Four Winds / Drunken Master / Qinggong

Share 'Slow Time' with the party, drink to replenish ki, use Neutralize Poison to remove penalties so you can keep drinking, share 'Wholeness of Body' to heal everyone, et cetera.

I'm not sure this would really work. Or rather, I think it'd work once per day and then you'd be out of Ki.

You see, the Sensei's abilities explicitly uses Ki points from their Ki Pool, while Drunken Ki isn't added to the pool but tallied separately. The archetypes really aren't that great together; unless anyone knows of a way to get Drunken Ki into a Monk's Ki Pool or make Mystic Advice run off "unpooled" Ki.


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Yea, I don't buy that VRMH

first the core monk also says

Quote:
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can do one of the following
and the start of drunken ki is
Quote:
At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point

you have to be exceptionally .... to deny those working together


Wording problems are Pathfinder's plague.

Anyway, I feel we got a bit far from the original topic: it was about the Insightful Strike ability, not about the Advice one.

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