Point Blank Shot (and other Damage Increases) with Alchemist splash damage.


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Liberty's Edge

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Hi there.

I had a discussion with a PFS GM yesterday about how Point Blank Shot (and other Damage increases like Divine Favor, Deadly Aim, Bard Song etc) influence splash damage for the Alchemist Bomb. On one side the the rule says:
Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).
The FAQ says:
Question: Point Blank Shot: Do I add the feat's extra damage to the splash damage from a splash weapon?
Answer: No, the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).

This is confusing. I understand that I don't add the PBS bonus to the splash as a +1 to whatever splash damage I make. But is the increased damage from Feats, Spells and other abilities taken into consideration when calculating the splash damage, and the FAQ entry only prevents "double dip"?

It would be great to get a statement here :)
I read lots of posts about this in the forum and there is a lot of discussion but I never saw an "offical" answer.

Thank you

Ala

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

From my reading, bonuses to weapon damage apply only to the bomb -- not its splash. As a result, Point Blank Shot, Inspire Courage, Divine Favor, Deadly Aim, and any other bonus to weapon damage do not apply when calculating the minimum damage of the bomb.

However, Fox's Cunning and other buffs to Int will apply to both the bomb and its splash.


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How can they apply to the bomb but not the splash when the splash damage is based on bomb damage? Splash is the minimum damage, but that minimum still factors in Bardic Performance, Prayer, PBS, and any other modifiers to damage.


It applies to the main target, but not the splash targets, since there is a FAQ that specifically says it applies to Alchemist Bombs (and one that says it doesn't apply to splash damage.

Here's another,somewhat related FAQ that goes more in-depth on what this entails.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It applies to the main target, but not the splash targets, since there is a FAQ that specifically says it applies to Alchemist Bombs (and one that says it doesn't apply to splash damage.

Here's another,somewhat related FAQ that goes more in-depth on what this entails.

Which FAQ is that? And the one you posted says that bonus damage does apply.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thorin001 wrote:
How can they apply to the bomb but not the splash when the splash damage is based on bomb damage? Splash is the minimum damage, but that minimum still factors in Bardic Performance, Prayer, PBS, and any other modifiers to damage.

Inspire Courage, Deadly Aim, Divine Favor, and similar buffs increase the damage dealt by a specific attack. They do not change the base damage of the weapons being used. They simply increase the amount of damage dealt in a single attack.

As such, they don't change the minimum damage dealt by bombs, so the splash remains unchanged.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is a confusing and frequently confused question, so let me attempt to explain what the OP is having trouble with. Despite the linked FAQs, this is actually unclear (and has been for years).

When an Alchemist throws a Bomb, the damage of a direct hit is Dice+Static. The Static can be anything from an Intelligence Bonus to the +1 from Prayer to the +1 from Point Blank Shot, etc.

When an Alchemist throws a Bomb, the damage of its splash is equal to the minimum damage of the Bomb. This includes every Static bonus to damage that the direct hit benefitted from.

Example:
Bomb = 2d6+3
Splash = 1+1+3

Now, this is the important part that gets missed:

"Is the Static damage of the Splash equal to the Static damage of the Bomb when the Static damage of the Bomb includes +1 from Point Blank Shot?"

Why is the FAQ unclear?

Because at the time the FAQ was issued, if you look at the discussions that were being had, people were trying to "double dip" the splash damage from Point Blank Shot. They were including it with the Static damage of the Bomb, AND adding it to the Static damage of the Splash.

The argument was that:
Bomb = 2d6+3
Splash = 1+1+4

With how the current FAQ is worded, nobody knows whether ALL damage from Point Blank Shot is restricted, or JUST the "double dipping" that people were arguing at the time.

It's one of those rulings that has lost context over the years. I personally believe that the Static damage of the Splash equals the Static damage of the Bomb, when Point Blank Shot is considered, and that's how I rule it at my tables.


thorin001 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It applies to the main target, but not the splash targets, since there is a FAQ that specifically says it applies to Alchemist Bombs (and one that says it doesn't apply to splash damage.

Here's another,somewhat related FAQ that goes more in-depth on what this entails.

Which FAQ is that? And the one you posted says that bonus damage does apply.

This one.

We have confirmation that Point Blank specifically applies to Alchemist Bombs, and then the FAQ linked by the OP states that only the initial hit on the enemy receives the bonus damage, and then goes on to list an Alchemist Bomb as an example of something that has an initial and a splash hit.

So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.

*sigh*


Nefreet wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.
*sigh*

We have a FAQ that says Point Blank applies to Alchemist Bombs, and we have another that says Point Blank doesn't apply to Splash Damage, and uses Alchemist Bombs as an example.

So, Point Blank applies to the initial hit, but not the splash damage.

I really don't see how it's that complicated.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.
*sigh*

We have a FAQ that says Point Blank applies to Alchemist Bombs, and we have another that says Point Blank doesn't apply to Splash Damage, and uses Alchemist Bombs as an example.

So, Point Blank applies to the initial hit, but not the splash damage.

I really don't see how it's that complicated.

What part of either FAQ says static damage does not apply to splash?


thorin001 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.
*sigh*

We have a FAQ that says Point Blank applies to Alchemist Bombs, and we have another that says Point Blank doesn't apply to Splash Damage, and uses Alchemist Bombs as an example.

So, Point Blank applies to the initial hit, but not the splash damage.

I really don't see how it's that complicated.

What part of either FAQ says static damage does not apply to splash?

FAQ #1

FAQ #1 wrote:

Alchemist: Does the damage bonus from the Point Blank Shot feat apply to bombs?

Yes.

This FAQ says that Alchemist Bombs explicitly benefit from Point Blank Shot.

FAQ #2 (OP cited this)

FAQ #2 wrote:

Point Blank Shot: Do I add the feat's extra damage to the splash damage from a splash weapon?

No, the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).

Bolded part says Point Blank Shot damage is exclusive to the original target, all secondary targets are unaffected.

If we combine both FAQs together, we get that Alchemist Bombs benefit from Point Blank Shot from the initial target, but not any other target.

Also keep in mind that this is referring strictly to Point Blank Shot. Things like Inspire Courage lack these FAQs, so they wouldn't be excluded from the splash damage total.


Nefreet wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So, it's quite clear that Point Blank only applies to the initial hit, and not to any splash hits.
*sigh*

That's not helpful. It just promotes aggravation.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I agree. It is aggravating when you explain why an issue is unclear, only to have someone skip over your post and conclude that there is no issue.

Thank you for understanding.

Liberty's Edge

Hi guys,

thank you for the discussion. I was a little worried that this is a clear thing and I am asking for something obvious. But this discussion goes along the same lines as the one I had at facebook and with my GM :). There seem to be valid points for both points of view. And there is not "offical" statement from Paizo yet, even though this is an open question since years :).

Kind regards

Ala

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Even though it only specifically mentions Point Blank shot, logically one can assume that other like bonuses (such as Inspire Courage) would also be treated in the same way.

It does seem like the splash damage would not include the temporary bonuses that the direct hit benefits from. I would assume this would also be the case for Alchemist Fires, Acid Flasks and other Alchemical weapons. (Splash Damage for those would still be 1 for the normal character)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

This is a confusing and frequently confused question, so let me attempt to explain what the OP is having trouble with. Despite the linked FAQs, this is actually unclear (and has been for years).

When an Alchemist throws a Bomb, the damage of a direct hit is Dice+Static. The Static can be anything from an Intelligence Bonus to the +1 from Prayer to the +1 from Point Blank Shot, etc.

When an Alchemist throws a Bomb, the damage of its splash is equal to the minimum damage of the Bomb. This includes every Static bonus to damage that the direct hit benefitted from.

Example:
Bomb = 2d6+3
Splash = 1+1+3

Now, this is the important part that gets missed:

"Is the Static damage of the Splash equal to the Static damage of the Bomb when the Static damage of the Bomb includes +1 from Point Blank Shot?"

Why is the FAQ unclear?

Because at the time the FAQ was issued, if you look at the discussions that were being had, people were trying to "double dip" the splash damage from Point Blank Shot. They were including it with the Static damage of the Bomb, AND adding it to the Static damage of the Splash.

The argument was that:
Bomb = 2d6+3
Splash = 1+1+4

With how the current FAQ is worded, nobody knows whether ALL damage from Point Blank Shot is restricted, or JUST the "double dipping" that people were arguing at the time.

It's one of those rulings that has lost context over the years. I personally believe that the Static damage of the Splash equals the Static damage of the Bomb, when Point Blank Shot is considered, and that's how I rule it at my tables.

So, I am not sure what your saying here.

The Point Blank would only be used for the Splash? or the normal direct hit was supposed to be 2D6+2? How in blue blazes would anyone add the damage again for the outlier effect? (Double dip, as you said)


thaX wrote:

So, I am not sure what your saying here.

The Point Blank would only be used for the Splash? or the normal direct hit was supposed to be 2D6+2? How in blue blazes would anyone add the damage again for the outlier effect? (Double dip, as you said)

I think what Nefreet means is that first, you'd do damage die + intelligence modifier + point blank shot on a direct hit.

The minimum damage of that is (minimum of damage die) + intelligence modifier + point blank shot. You can't do less than that.

For splash damage, you take the minimum. And, since you're within 30 ft. of your splash-damaged enemy, you get to add point blank shot. Again.

It's obviously not the intention. But if that's the context in which the FAQ was issued (loved to see the threads in question) then I can get where the confusion comes from.


Except we have a FAQ that says it doesn't apply to splash damage, and it specifically calls out Alchemist Bombs as being included.

So we know, for a fact, that 1 + Int + PBS is not correct for splash damage.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Blymurkla wrote:
thaX wrote:

So, I am not sure what your saying here.

The Point Blank would only be used for the Splash? or the normal direct hit was supposed to be 2D6+2? How in blue blazes would anyone add the damage again for the outlier effect? (Double dip, as you said)

I think what Nefreet means is that first, you'd do damage die + intelligence modifier + point blank shot on a direct hit.

The minimum damage of that is (minimum of damage die) + intelligence modifier + point blank shot. You can't do less than that.

For splash damage, you take the minimum. And, since you're within 30 ft. of your splash-damaged enemy, you get to add point blank shot. Again.

It's obviously not the intention. But if that's the context in which the FAQ was issued (loved to see the threads in question) then I can get where the confusion comes from.

Someone was drinking the kool aid.

Min damage of 2d6 + 3 is 5. If PBS is included in that, one would not add it in again for the outlier effects (For 5 +1 for 6 splash). That is just stupid.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Except we have a FAQ that says it doesn't apply to splash damage, and it specifically calls out Alchemist Bombs as being included.

So we know, for a fact, that 1 + Int + PBS is not correct for splash damage.

I kindly request that you please reread my more lengthy post so you can hopefully understand why the FAQ is unclear.

At least admit it's ambiguous. Feel free after that to rule how you wish, and I'll do the same.

The difference of 1 point of Damage shouldn't hurt anyone's build in either case.


Nefreet wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Except we have a FAQ that says it doesn't apply to splash damage, and it specifically calls out Alchemist Bombs as being included.

So we know, for a fact, that 1 + Int + PBS is not correct for splash damage.

I kindly request that you please reread my more lengthy post so you can hopefully understand why the FAQ is unclear.

At least admit it's ambiguous. Feel free after that to rule how you wish, and I'll do the same.

The difference of 1 point of Damage shouldn't hurt anyone's build in either case.

I did re-read it, and the FAQ is still crystal clear: You don't add Point Blank Shot to any splash damage you deal with any splash weapon you might be using.

FAQ wrote:
...the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).

The word ONLY is important here, because that means Point Blank doesn't apply to splash damage whatsoever, double-dip or otherwise.

It even mentions Alchemist Bombs as being an inclusion to this rule, so stating that Alchemist Bombs have special rules that circumvent this sort of thing won't help. Which further means any aspect of adding Point Blank Shot damage to your Splash Damage calculation is incorrect by the FAQ.

Sovereign Court

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
FAQ wrote:
...the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).

The word ONLY is important here, because that means Point Blank doesn't apply to splash damage whatsoever, double-dip or otherwise.

It even mentions Alchemist Bombs as being an inclusion to this rule, so stating that Alchemist Bombs have special rules that circumvent this sort of thing won't help. Which further means any aspect of adding Point Blank Shot damage to your Splash Damage calculation is incorrect by the FAQ.

Technically, with your reading of the FAQ, it directly modifies the calculation of the bomb's damage (not taking into account bonuses from other sources than the bomb itself), and should have been an errata (or at least state it would be reflected in the next errata as they usually do).

I still think you are correct (it really makes no sense for PBS to add damage to the splash of the bomb), but it could be clearer.


As a rule of thumb, if the bonus damage, PBS for example, applies to the primary attack, then it would not be applied again to the secondary condition. That's literally doubling the bonus applied.


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Well it seems here that regardless of how we read the wording of the FAQ, we all mostly agree on the intent of how it should be and doesn't add in twice.

Sooooo let us just do that and move on.


eltrai wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
FAQ wrote:
...the extra damage from Point Blank Shot only applies to the target of a direct hit with a splash weapon (including direct hits from an alchemist's bomb).

The word ONLY is important here, because that means Point Blank doesn't apply to splash damage whatsoever, double-dip or otherwise.

It even mentions Alchemist Bombs as being an inclusion to this rule, so stating that Alchemist Bombs have special rules that circumvent this sort of thing won't help. Which further means any aspect of adding Point Blank Shot damage to your Splash Damage calculation is incorrect by the FAQ.

Technically, with your reading of the FAQ, it directly modifies the calculation of the bomb's damage (not taking into account bonuses from other sources than the bomb itself), and should have been an errata (or at least state it would be reflected in the next errata as they usually do).

I still think you are correct (it really makes no sense for PBS to add damage to the splash of the bomb), but it could be clearer.

It's not really an errata though.

An errata would be to require adjusting the wording of the rules text to accommodate a rules change. To the PDT, this isn't a rules change, but a clarification, and it makes sense since this is what they did with the Defending Weapon FAQ, because the RAW still supports the current ruling.

The FAQ merely says that PBS doesn't apply to splash damage, and Alchemist Bombs were used as an example of something that PBS doesn't apply to in regards to splash damage.

It's also clear as day, as the FAQ outright says that it applies only to direct hits, and hits that are indirect (i.e. splash damage) don't benefit from it in any shape or form, even an Alchemist's Bomb doesn't benefit for the purposes of minimum damage.

A level 3 Alchemist with 16 Intelligence and Point Blank Shot does 2D6+4 (3 Intelligence + 1 PBS) damage on a bomb, with 5 splash damage (2 dice minimum + 3 Intelligence) based on the FAQ. Anyone who adds PBS to splash damage whatsoever, is incorrect.


Most damage boosts only activate when you make an attack roll against the person you're hurting. You're not attacking the people you hit with splash, you're catching them in an area of effect.


faq seems clear to me


So if it doesn't apply to the min damage clause then what actually does get to apply to determining splash damage.


Talonhawke wrote:
So if it doesn't apply to the min damage clause then what actually does get to apply to determining splash damage.

You'd still apply everything else that's minimum damage to the total calculations. All the FAQ is saying is that Point Blank Shot does not factor into that calculation whatsoever.

So, expanding on my Alchemist example above, let's say there was an equal level Bard using Inspire Courage with the Alchemist in the party. That 2D6+4 bomb now becomes 2D6+5, and the minimum damage now gets bumped up to 6 (2 dice + 3 Intelligence + 1 Inspire Courage).

Similarly, if the Alchemist somehow acquired Weapon Specialization (Bomb), he'd add +2 to the direct and minimum splash damage totals, since these are not removed from the splash damage calculation.


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Still have to agree with Nefreet then Don't see why that 1 pt of damage would be added to the direct hit damage but not affect the calculation if everything else affects the calculation. I could agree if most other things didn't but I think it may have been more of an issue with double dipping.


if PBS is double dipping for being in the splash damage then why weapon specialization, prayer, divine favour, etc. are not also considered double dipping, i mean they all add to damage, i see that as cherry pick what is double dipping and what is not, i mean the description of a splash weapon is that it deals min damage of the weapon

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Darksol, you keep bolding the word "only", but it can still be read two ways.

I agree that PBS "only" applies to the direct hit damage.

That minimum direct hit damage then becomes splash damage.

And, again, since it can be read more than one way, neither you or I can be faulted for our respective rulings. If I was at your table, and you said "no", I'd respect that. One point of damage should not hinder anyone's build.

But I'd hope you gave me the same courtesy at my tables.

Scarab Sages

...and now to add another wrinkle in the fabric...

How does the feat:

Measured Response:
(Combat)
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 213, Faiths of Balance pg. 24
You believe that a conservative but consistent response guarantees success.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, worshiper of Abadar.

Benefit: When you hit an opponent with a melee or ranged weapon attack, you may choose to deal average damage (rounded down), as if you had rolled exactly the average amount on the damage die or dice. You add your damage bonuses and penalties as normal.

interact (if at all) with the normal splash damage of an Alchemists bomb?

"The minimum damage of that is (minimum of damage die) + intelligence modifier...".

so, with this feat, a 3rd level alchemist would do a minimum (and maximum) of 7 +INT with a bomb. Does his splash damage equal 7+INT?

edit: unless an Alchemists Bomb ISN'T a "ranged weapon attack"...


I would say it doesn't, it's replacing your roll but doesn't change what the dice would be for it.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

^ I'd rule the same.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So if it doesn't apply to the min damage clause then what actually does get to apply to determining splash damage.

You'd still apply everything else that's minimum damage to the total calculations. All the FAQ is saying is that Point Blank Shot does not factor into that calculation whatsoever.

So, expanding on my Alchemist example above, let's say there was an equal level Bard using Inspire Courage with the Alchemist in the party. That 2D6+4 bomb now becomes 2D6+5, and the minimum damage now gets bumped up to 6 (2 dice + 3 Intelligence + 1 Inspire Courage).

Similarly, if the Alchemist somehow acquired Weapon Specialization (Bomb), he'd add +2 to the direct and minimum splash damage totals, since these are not removed from the splash damage calculation.

Without an errata to PBS, I find this viewpoint very hard to accept. What makes PBS different from a design standpoint than other effects which are added such as inspire courage? What would be a potential justification for the "no PBS on splash" FAQ?

Another way to phrase the question in case I am unclear: Without the FAQ, is there an intuitive reason to not add PBS damage to the splash damage?


Talonhawke wrote:
Still have to agree with Nefreet then Don't see why that 1 pt of damage would be added to the direct hit damage but not affect the calculation if everything else affects the calculation. I could agree if most other things didn't but I think it may have been more of an issue with double dipping.

Well, we can easily make an issue out of doing it the other way.

Let's say our Level 3, 16 Int Alchemist is throwing a bomb at an enemy exactly 30 feet away, with another enemy 5 feet beside him, and another directly behind him (35 ft. away from the Alchemist in total).

So, Alchemist rolls, hits, and deals his damage to the original target. What's the damage that each creature takes? The minimum that the original target took? That can't be right, one of them isn't within 30 feet of the Alchemist, so why is it that he suffers Point Blank Shot damage without being in 30 feet?

If said Alchemist lobbed his bomb at the creature 35 feet away (because there's yet another one 5 feet behind that one, netting 4 targets affected in total), would all of them not take the Point Blank Shot damage, even though you have two creatures within 30 feet of the Alchemist?

It's situations like this (which are actually more common than you think,) that make me say that Point Blank Shot doesn't apply to splash damage dealt, both out of simplicity/conservatism, and out of not creating something players might eventually refer to as Schrodinger's Damage Bonus.

@ John Murdock: Inspire Courage, Prayer, Weapon Specialization, et. al. aren't what the FAQ is saying not to add to splash damage. Point Blank Shot is. So, bringing them up as counter-points for it to work is going beyond the scope of what the FAQ is telling us, which makes them largely irrelevant.

@ Nefreet: If by "give the same courtesy," you mean "accept the GM's ruling," then yes, I would. Mostly because I view Point Blank Shot as a feat tax and not something quintessential to a build. Of course, accepting a GM's ruling doesn't mean that the GM is correct as a whole, just at his table.


Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So if it doesn't apply to the min damage clause then what actually does get to apply to determining splash damage.

You'd still apply everything else that's minimum damage to the total calculations. All the FAQ is saying is that Point Blank Shot does not factor into that calculation whatsoever.

So, expanding on my Alchemist example above, let's say there was an equal level Bard using Inspire Courage with the Alchemist in the party. That 2D6+4 bomb now becomes 2D6+5, and the minimum damage now gets bumped up to 6 (2 dice + 3 Intelligence + 1 Inspire Courage).

Similarly, if the Alchemist somehow acquired Weapon Specialization (Bomb), he'd add +2 to the direct and minimum splash damage totals, since these are not removed from the splash damage calculation.

Without an errata to PBS, I find this viewpoint very hard to accept. What makes PBS different from a design standpoint than other effects which are added such as inspire courage? What would be a potential justification for the "no PBS on splash" FAQ?

Another way to phrase the question in case I am unclear: Without the FAQ, is there an intuitive reason to not add PBS damage to the splash damage?

A lot of FAQs (most of them recent, actually) present viewpoints that are difficult to accept. The Ammunition FAQ demonstrated that people have been playing the game wrong for years upon years, and system after system (even though they're by and large highly similar to each other), the Cost Multiplier FAQ just given last week caused a lot of uproar (though mostly with PFS players trying to cheese size rules to get cheaper armor), the Crane Wing feat (of which Deflect Arrows still hasn't seen a counter-nerf towards), the list goes on. Saying that an errata is necessary to explain a design choice regarding Point Blank Shot compared to other rules that have been done without an explanation behind a given change seems like a hidden double standard.

As for lacking the FAQ, not really. Then again, without FAQs, we'd have people cheesing Defending Weapons (or even Guardian Weapons) for better AC (Saves) without using them as they're intended, so I'd be careful in suggesting that a FAQ without an errata means that it's not an intended rule.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Still have to agree with Nefreet then Don't see why that 1 pt of damage would be added to the direct hit damage but not affect the calculation if everything else affects the calculation. I could agree if most other things didn't but I think it may have been more of an issue with double dipping.

Well, we can easily make an issue out of doing it the other way.

Let's say our Level 3, 16 Int Alchemist is throwing a bomb at an enemy exactly 30 feet away, with another enemy 5 feet beside him, and another directly behind him (35 ft. away from the Alchemist in total).

So, Alchemist rolls, hits, and deals his damage to the original target. What's the damage that each creature takes? The minimum that the original target took? That can't be right, one of them isn't within 30 feet of the Alchemist, so why is it that he suffers Point Blank Shot damage without being in 30 feet?

Bomb min. damage (assuming nothing else but pbs and int) is 2+3+1 so six. Splash damage isn't affected by PBS per faq just the bomb damage.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If said Alchemist lobbed his bomb at the creature 35 feet away (because there's yet another one 5 feet behind that one, netting 4 targets affected in total), would all of them not take the Point Blank Shot damage, even though you have two creatures within 30 feet of the Alchemist?

Bomb now does 2d6+3 so splash damage is 5. the bomb not the splash is affected by PBS.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It's situations like this (which are actually more common than you think,) that make me say that Point Blank Shot doesn't apply to splash damage dealt, both out of simplicity/conservatism, and out of not creating something players might eventually refer to as Schrodinger's Damage Bonus.

It's not Schrodinger's at all you look at the bombs min. damage nothing else. If the bomb is affected by pbs then min damage goes up one.


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Without the FAQ, is there an intuitive reason to not add PBS damage to the splash damage?

1) point blank is damage you get for aiming better, you're not aiming splash

2) its an attack roll add on. There's no attack roll, so no add on.


Talonhawke wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Still have to agree with Nefreet then Don't see why that 1 pt of damage would be added to the direct hit damage but not affect the calculation if everything else affects the calculation. I could agree if most other things didn't but I think it may have been more of an issue with double dipping.

Well, we can easily make an issue out of doing it the other way.

Let's say our Level 3, 16 Int Alchemist is throwing a bomb at an enemy exactly 30 feet away, with another enemy 5 feet beside him, and another directly behind him (35 ft. away from the Alchemist in total).

So, Alchemist rolls, hits, and deals his damage to the original target. What's the damage that each creature takes? The minimum that the original target took? That can't be right, one of them isn't within 30 feet of the Alchemist, so why is it that he suffers Point Blank Shot damage without being in 30 feet?

Bomb min. damage (assuming nothing else but pbs and int) is 2+3+1 so six. Splash damage isn't affected by PBS per faq just the bomb damage.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If said Alchemist lobbed his bomb at the creature 35 feet away (because there's yet another one 5 feet behind that one, netting 4 targets affected in total), would all of them not take the Point Blank Shot damage, even though you have two creatures within 30 feet of the Alchemist?

Bomb now does 2d6+3 so splash damage is 5. the bomb not the splash is affected by PBS.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It's situations like this (which are actually more common than you think,) that make me say that Point Blank Shot doesn't apply to splash damage dealt, both out of simplicity/conservatism, and out of not creating something players might eventually refer to as Schrodinger's Damage Bonus.

It's not Schrodinger's at all you look at the bombs min. damage nothing else. If the bomb is affected by pbs then min damage goes up one.

So, you're applying Point Blank Shot benefits to creatures that aren't within 30 ft. of the Alchemist all because the initial target is within 30 feet? Yeah, you just lost all credibility with your math argument right there. I don't know what version of Pathfinder you're playing, but in every version of Pathfinder I've played, Point Blank Shot doesn't apply against subjects that are further than 30 feet away, regardless of what you're doing.

FAQ says only direct hits are affected by PBS. Splash damage isn't a direct hit, so it's not affected. If it was, I'd be doing 2 Splash Damage with an Alchemist's Fire or Alchemist's Acid if I was aiming at an enemy within 30 feet. But hey, if you want to sit there and say that Alchemist Bombs are a special exception, list it. Good luck convincing a FAQ that outright lists Alchemist Bombs as being included in the exception list, you'll need it.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
its an attack roll add on. There's no attack roll, so no add on.

...there *is* an attack roll, and a damage roll.

The minimum of that damage roll becomes the splash damage.

What you can't claim is that the minimum splash damage is increased by another +1, after having already calculated the minimum using the initial +1.

That would be double dipping, and the FAQ is at least clear on that.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Without the FAQ, is there an intuitive reason to not add PBS damage to the splash damage?

1) point blank is damage you get for aiming better, you're not aiming splash

2) its an attack roll add on. There's no attack roll, so no add on.

To clarify, are you of the opinion that things like courage do not apply as well?


Del_Taco_Eater wrote:


To clarify, are you of the opinion that things like courage do not apply as well?

Not to splash, no. When it says minimum damage it means # of dice +1 int. There's no room for any other idea with the faq there.


Nefreet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
its an attack roll add on. There's no attack roll, so no add on.

...there *is* an attack roll, and a damage roll.

The minimum of that damage roll becomes the splash damage.

What you can't claim is that the minimum splash damage is increased by another +1, after having already calculated the minimum using the initial +1.

That would be double dipping, and the FAQ is at least clear on that.

*backfoot headscratch* I don't think the +1 applies at all. So no double dipping, you're not allowed in the pool.

The Exchange

Meh, PBS on only the individual hit with the attack roll. Faq is clear enough on this. I wonder if I would be okay with this even if I was not the GM. It's just +1 and not going to break anything but it just seems downright nonsensical to allow.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
To clarify, are you of the opinion that things like courage do not apply as well?
Not to splash, no. When it says minimum damage it means # of dice +1 int. There's no room for any other idea with the faq there.

When you swing a Greatsword with a Strength of 14 and Bard Song going, minimum damage is 2+3+1.

When a 3rd level Alchemist throws a Bomb with an Int of 16 and Point Blank Shot, minimum damage is 2+3+1.

"Minimum damage" includes Static modifiers.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

So, you're applying Point Blank Shot benefits to creatures that aren't within 30 ft. of the Alchemist all because the initial target is within 30 feet? Yeah, you just lost all credibility with your math argument right there. I don't know what version of Pathfinder you're playing, but in every version of Pathfinder I've played, Point Blank Shot doesn't apply against subjects that are further than 30 feet away, regardless of what you're doing.

FAQ says only direct hits are affected by PBS. Splash damage isn't a direct hit, so it's not affected. If it was, I'd be doing 2 Splash Damage with an Alchemist's Fire or Alchemist's Acid if I was aiming at an enemy within 30 feet. But hey, if you want to sit there and say that Alchemist Bombs are a special exception, list it. Good luck convincing a FAQ that outright lists Alchemist Bombs as being included in the exception list, you'll need it.

Your 100% right it doesn't apply to a target more than 30ft away. Good thing the target is which then effects the damage of the bomb. Notice how you want to not only attack me directly not the argument i made, and then bring up a strawman about non-bomb alchemical weapons? Unless I'm missing something new alchemist fire and acid don't splash for minimum damage, so why even bring them up at all?

EDIT: Actually I think I'm gonna disagree with myself a bit here. After thinking on all things that might affect a bombs damage I'm going to actually agree that a target would still need to qualify for the extra damage from PBS by virtue of range. But the guy in the second example still isn't getting extra damage he isn't the target.


But that last edit brings up some points that if we are assuming that +damage effects with riders might affect min damage how would they be applied.

Paladin Smite? Probably not an issue since its one target at a time and effects damage rolls.

Ranger Favored enemy? Here is a possible pickle does the extra damage get applied to all splashed applicable targets due to being included in the damage roll? What if there are varying favored enemies among the splashed.

Unchained Barbarian does the bonus to thrown weapons effect splash weapons and if so the min. damage? I assume no here but worth checking.

Inquisitor judgement?

Underground Chemist sneak attack?

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