"before the results of the roll are revealed"


Rules Questions


Can something that will always happen as the result of a roll (Natural 1 or 20 on an attack or saving throw, firearm misfire etc.) be rerolled by effects that must be activated "...before the results of the roll are revealed." such as the Preacher's Aggression ability or the Dual Cursed Oracle's Misfortune ability?

Spoiler:
Aggression: The preacher may reroll an attack roll that she just made before the results of the roll are revealed. She must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.

Spoiler:
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.

Is it revealed at the point where it's the inevitable result of the roll, or only after the action that triggered the roll resolves?


I can't see why not. I interpret 'before the results are revealed' to mean 'before whatever happens as a result of that roll happens'. So, say, you can't roll a 12, wait for the GM to call 'miss', then declare your re-roll.


Yes, just because it's 'incredibly likely' that the roll was a success or failure doesn't prevent you from using the ability. The results thing means you can't wait for the GM to tell you the outcome.

Obviously, this isn't meant to be a speed game, so it shouldn't be about whether you can beat out the GM in shouting out that you're using it, but neither should you just take your time. For instance, if your enemy rolls a 20, then you wait until it rolls a successful confirmation, it's too late to affect the 20 (though you could try and affect the confirmation roll). Similarly, you shouldn't wait until you see the amount of damage you receive before deciding to use the ability.

Again, different games use different rolling methods, but the key is to be fair. For instance, some games have the PCs and GM roll their attack and their damage rolls simultaneously to save time, so it's possible a quick-eyed person could take advantage of that, ie. "That's a lot of 6s on those d6 rolls, I don't want to take that much. Reroll that attack!". So there's nothing to be done for it in that case (although the GM could just keep those damage dice in case the attack reroll still hits, which would also be fair.)

So yes, you can use the ability even on 'sure thing' rolls (unless the ability says otherwise) but don't wait or take too much time or hold up the game. If the GM has already rolled or assigned damage from the result, it's probably too late... unless he's going too quickly (not necessarily being unfair, but sometimes people forget you have that ability.)


I interpret "before the results of the roll are revealed" to be any time between "the die stops rolling and you see what it is" and "the GM tells you what happens because it was this number and not a different number."

So when it's a 1 or a 20 you have a good idea what's going to happen, but you can still reroll with these abilities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The results of the roll are not revealed until the GM announces them. Because the GM can always fudge the circumstances. So reroll abilities may be used even on natural 1s or 20s.


It's an interesting point but I can see few game runners enforcing that. You see a one and before announcing you rolled a one you can just reroll.


To avoid slowing things WAY DOWN in PbP, something different should probably be done. Maybe you have to announce ahead of time a range of results to which you want the reroll ability to be applied automatically (possibly in combination with other conditions)?


Player: I rolled a twenty but not sure If i should re-roll it since I haven't heard results yet.

DM: *beats player with over sized novelty bat*

same for 1

Just sayin.

I see what your saying I feel like they should just let all the re-rolls work after you know the result. keep it the same across the board. Hmm might slow down the game however >.> perfect strike you just roll them all at the same time anyways right? I think there is ones that go after the result is seen to but I can't think of any.

Shadow Lodge

That's overly antagonistic.

Just sayin'.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

Player: I rolled a twenty but not sure If i should re-roll it since I haven't heard results yet.

DM: *beats player with over sized novelty bat*

same for 1

Just sayin.

What did that poor bat ever do to you? It was just trying to find fruit!


TOZ wrote:

That's overly antagonistic.

Just sayin'.

What if I said it was an inflatable bat?


I agree with those saying the die result alone does not qualify as knowing the "results". And literally that is true, because there is any number of abilities/effects which could negate or alter the "results" you might expect from even a 1 or 20. In other words, 1, 20, or anything between is not the "result" of the roll, it IS the roll.

The ability is inherently meta-gaming (fun fact, playing the game nigh REQUIRES some level of meta-gaming... i.e. "does your character KNOW how AoE and threat zone and 5' step mechanics work?) and you aren't forced to NOT meta-game about Nat 1 or 20s (and even if you WERE re: Auto-Fail/Success, you would likely decide similarly based simply on being super low/high).

Scarab Sages

If you are actively using it, you can try and talk to the GM to inform about the ability and how it works. I was playing a PFS game a few years back with a misfortune witch in the party. What the player did was sit next to the GM after the explination. The GM had declared the number on the dice and it was the player's decision if a reroll was necessary. It led to a bit of a longer game, but was fair on both sides.

As for meta-gaming, there are also a few things that goes against that can normally be learned through failure. A bard's Gallant Inspiration spell, a Medium's Spirit Surge, and an Spiritualist Investigator's Sixth Sense are a few examples of when a failed number known can lead to out of character knowledge.


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It's safe to assume, in my mind, that you can re-roll a 1 because you can reroll any other number where it's utterly obvious that you failed/are going to fail. A 1 may be a RAW automatic fail, but it's usually a safe assumption that anything 2-5 will be a failure as well unless your GM is throwing you some serious softballs.


As a player, I'd announce before the roll: 'I might reroll this one.'. So the GM would hopefully give me a bit of time after the roll.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
As a player, I'd announce before the roll: 'I might reroll this one.'. So the GM would hopefully give me a bit of time after the roll.

Then you would be saying that before every roll.


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Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd like to meet the guy that might be concerned enough to reroll a natural 20, however. That takes something special.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I usually do it when trying to take down someone without killing them.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I usually do it when trying to take down someone without killing them.

ever heard of non-lethal damage? if you crit on a non lethal-damage you won't kill the creature

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Not if you're using a x4 weapon. Or have already deal a lot of nonlethal. I have an earthbreaker barbarian and tetsubo tengu that use Bludgeoner, so I'm well versed in less-than-lethal tactics.

Fun fact, sap master rogue one-shot a character in a bar fight because they had less HP than expected.


yeah X4 weapon can be dangerous in a crit even with non-lethal (i know how well dangerous is a x4 i have loss a slave because of that).

really? the rogue with sap master killed someone, i'm laughing at this its a very funny scenario to be honest, which can be sad for them since i'm sure it was not their intention and they are surely now murderer in the eyes of the settlement

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Eh, it was a temple of Cayden Cailean, they know accidents happen. (The place burns down occasionally, and yet it's still made of wood...)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Eh, it was a temple of Cayden Cailean, they know accidents happen.

a chance then

TriOmegaZero wrote:
(The place burns down occasionally, and yet it's still made of wood...)

some people never learn, if it burns often i would at least make it in stone


thorin001 wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
As a player, I'd announce before the roll: 'I might reroll this one.'. So the GM would hopefully give me a bit of time after the roll.
Then you would be saying that before every roll.

DEEP... It's almost like you know what his games are like better than him.

taks wrote:
I'd like to meet the guy that might be concerned enough to reroll a natural 20, however. That takes something special.

The OP was discussing 2 abilities whose mechanics hinge on the same point, the one relevant to a scenario of choosing to re-roll a Nat 20 is named "Misfortune" and describes the targets "suffering" from it's effects. So usage vs enemies who have rolled high attack/Save is the default usage, even if it also works vs yourself/allies (which would be done when rolling low to re-roll for higher, i.e. a benefit despite fluff text of ability).


Quandary wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
As a player, I'd announce before the roll: 'I might reroll this one.'. So the GM would hopefully give me a bit of time after the roll.
Then you would be saying that before every roll.

DEEP... It's almost like you know what his games are like better than him.

taks wrote:
I'd like to meet the guy that might be concerned enough to reroll a natural 20, however. That takes something special.
The OP was discussing 2 abilities whose mechanics hinge on the same point, the one relevant to a scenario of choosing to re-roll a Nat 20 is named "Misfortune" and describes the targets "suffering" from it's effects. So usage vs enemies who have rolled high attack/Save is the default usage, even if it also works vs yourself/allies (which would be done when rolling low to re-roll for higher, i.e. a benefit despite fluff text of ability).

If you have to say you might re-roll to get a chance to re-roll and you don't know which rolls you want to re-roll until after you have seen the roll, it takes no great powers of clairvoyance to know how that works out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Unless the roll you are making isn't one you will bother rerolling. "Oh darn, I missed my Craft: Underwater Basketweaving check. Guess I'll try again next week."


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Unless the roll you are making isn't one you will bother rerolling. "Oh darn, I missed my Craft: Underwater Basketweaving check. Guess I'll try again next week."

Sure, but how common are those compared to attack rolls, saves, concentration checks, caster level checks, or skill checks that it would suck to fail?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Honestly, a lot of attack rolls and saves are ones I wouldn't care to preface. Especially if I have a good idea of the outcome. Spellcrafting a doom spell means I'm not going to be thinking about rerolling. Spellcrafting a destruction spell would. Likewise, I'm not wasting a reroll on attacking a goblin mook, but I might for the antipaladin that is mowing through the party.

Failing some checks is okay, and your posit that we would always use the reroll preface is faulty.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quandary wrote:
The OP was discussing 2 abilities whose mechanics hinge on the same point, the one relevant to a scenario of choosing to re-roll a Nat 20 is named "Misfortune" and describes the targets "suffering" from it's effects. So usage vs enemies who have rolled high attack/Save is the default usage, even if it also works vs yourself/allies (which would be done when rolling low to re-roll for higher, i.e. a benefit despite fluff text of ability).

True, though clearly my sarcasm was directed elsewhere. :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly, a lot of attack rolls and saves are ones I wouldn't care to preface. Especially if I have a good idea of the outcome. Spellcrafting a doom spell means I'm not going to be thinking about rerolling. Spellcrafting a destruction spell would. Likewise, I'm not wasting a reroll on attacking a goblin mook, but I might for the antipaladin that is mowing through the party.

You don't know if it's Doom or Destruction until you succeed on your spellcraft check.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Indeed, which is why I would be using it to determine if I rerolled the save. I thought that "successfully" Spellcrafting was implied. Otherwise, I didn't spellcrafting it.

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