Grazzle's healing -- how does it work, exactly? And is it broken?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Grazzle in the Oracle class deck has this base power:

Grazzle from the get-go wrote:
At the start of your turn, you may discard any number of cards from the top of your deck. Each other character may shuffle random cards from his discard pile into his deck; the total number of cards shuffled must not exceed (□ 1 plus) twice the number of cards you discarded.

Note how this works: Grazzle discards N cards, and then the sum total of cards healed for all the other players (combined) is 2N (or 2N+1 with the power feat). So, don't do this:

Common Grazzle misplay #1: Healing each other character for 2N cards.

Grazzle's enhanced role power options include:

Grazzle Bone Diviner wrote:
At the start of your turn, you may discard any number of cards from the top of your deck. (□ If any of those cards have the Divine trait, you may recharge a random card (□ or 2 random cards) from your discard pile.) Each other character may shuffle random cards from his discard pile into his deck; the total number of cards shuffled must not exceed (□ 1 plus) twice the number of cards you discarded.

Bone Diviner doesn't heal any more cards for other characters, but does heal Grazzle himself for 1 or 2 cards (most of the time).

Grazzle Bog Medic wrote:
At the start of your turn, you may discard any number of cards from the top of your deck. (□ If any of those cards have the Divine trait, you may recharge them instead.) Each other character may shuffle random cards from his discard pile into his deck; the total number of cards shuffled must not exceed (□ 1 plus) (□ 2 plus) (□ 3 plus) twice the number of cards you discarded.

Bog Medic extends Grazzle's heal to 2N+3, potentially, but interestingly grants the ability to recharge his own cards -- instead of using them for healing.

Common Grazzle misplay #2: Using the Bog Medic power feat to recharge the cards Grazzle is using to heal others.

Bog Medic is written deceptively: the "recharge instead" power grants the ability to recharge any number of Divine cards off the top of your deck. But because the healing power still says "the number of cards you discarded", the cards you recharge don't count for healing. At first, I assumed this was an oversight, and that the intention was they should count for healing. But, on consideration -- that's MUCH too powerful. Instead: the point of the power feat is so that Grazzle doesn't discard his cures.

Even played as written -- is Grazzle TOO powerful?

-- He can start with a Cure, and add Major Cure in deck 3, and Breath of Life in deck 6
-- Not only does he always recharge those spells, with a power feat he can shuffle them into his deck, so he will see them more quickly (if he doesn't discard/recharge them)
-- He heals characters at ANY location
-- He heals multiple characters at once
-- It's conceivable he could heal 12+ cards at once, multiple times in a scenario

I admit I haven't played Grazzle. What are people's experiences?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I don't play Class Decks, but I read up on Grazzle due to the recent discussion (which probably prompted your post), and I'll say that much: If I played him (her?) , I would've been guilty of *both* the mistakes you listed.

So, thanks for the public-service heads-up!

(Also, I suppose you must decide the "any number of cards" before you start discarding/recharging?)


I'll keep this short for now since I'm on mobile but I only recently realized that playing #2 was wrong when I took him through my homebrew WotR and trivialized everything starting AD4.

I think he is too strong overall, even when played correctly, since the range and efficiency of the heal is much better than that of comparable healing powers of other characters. Recharging spells for free is just the icing on the cake.

Like Longshot, I've been recently wondering whether you need to call the cards you will discard beforehand or if you just continue discarding/recharging them until you are satisfied. I also wonder if it is possible to call 0 cards in order to just heal 1-3 cards using his power feats, which is still much better than comparable healing powers of other characters imho.


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Grazzle is a male Lizardfolk. :)

Yes -- Doppelschwert's recent post & a subsequent DM conversation gave me #2, and Eliandra pointed out #1.

My gut instinct response to Longshot's last question is that you must specify the number of cards you are going to discard/recharge before you begin manipulating cards, as you have exactly one use of the power at the start of your turn. But I can't clearly cite RAW for this.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the man himself! Grazzle has to choose to discard/recharge at least 1 card if he is to use his heal power at all based on this FAQ on "any number".


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Misplay #2 feels like an oversight. Power feats should not reduce your power. I don't have play experience with Grazzle but that does look like a bit much on the healing front in certain circumstances (i.e. other characters are able to heal him, or when playing with low player counts). With a 6p game and no other Divine users, Grazzle will likely have a hard time keeping everyone healed, especially with characters who like to kill themselves like Seoni. In short, I don't want to pass judgment on it being OP based purely on theorycrafting, as I can see it both ways.

What is clear is you must choose the number before you begin discarding cards and healing (per "Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action."), and you cannot choose 0 (per FAQ).


Re #2: It doesn't reduce your power -- it gives you an alternative to your power.

You don't have to declare "I am recharging 2 cards and discarding 3 cards" (for example) before you discard.
You declare "I am discarding 5 cards" for example. Then, as you discard the cards, you check -- does the card have the Divine trait? If so, you can recharge it instead of discarding it.
After you are done "discarding", other players can heal a total of 2N (or 2N+x, depending on feats) cards, where N is the number of cards you actually discarded.

As I said, it permits you to avoid discarding your curing spells. This could save Grazzle's life.

And think of the alternative: 10/15 of Grazzle's starting deck are Divine cards. With 4 card feats, that can be 14/19. You're suggesting Grazzle can recharge any number of these Divine cards at the start of every turn to heal 2N+x cards? That would be beyond broken.


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elcoderdude wrote:

Re #2: It doesn't reduce your power -- it gives you an alternative to your power.

You don't have to declare "I am recharging 2 cards and discarding 3 cards" (for example) before you discard.
You declare "I am discarding 5 cards" for example. Then, as you discard the cards, you check -- does the card have the Divine trait? If so, you can recharge it instead of discarding it.
After you are done "discarding", other players can heal a total of 2N (or 2N+x, depending on feats) cards, where N is the number of cards you actually discarded.

As I said, it permits you to avoid discarding your curing spells. This could save Grazzle's life.

And think of the alternative: 10/15 of Grazzle's starting deck are Divine cards. With 4 card feats, that can be 14/19. You're suggesting Grazzle can recharge any number of these Divine cards at the start of every turn to heal 2N+x cards? That would be beyond broken.

I disagree with your interpretation. The decision to discard X number of cards is made before they're checked to see if they're divine, and that decision is what determines how many cards get healed. That some of the discarded cards end up at the bottom of Grazzle's deck doesn't change how many were chosen for discarding when the power was activated.

All cards and many powers require you to take some action with a card in order to generate an effect. In no cases does another power or effect that changes the ultimate destination of the card retroactively cancel the initial effect that was generated.


Xexyz wrote:

I disagree with your interpretation. The decision to discard X number of cards is made before they're checked to see if they're divine, and that decision is what determines how many cards get healed. That some of the discarded cards end up at the bottom of Grazzle's deck doesn't change how many were chosen for discarding when the power was activated.

All cards and many powers require you to take some action with a card in order to generate an effect. In no cases does another power or effect that changes the ultimate destination of the card retroactively cancel the initial effect that was generated.

You wanted to discard the cards, but you did not, in fact, discard them -- you recharged them. So you don't get a benefit from discarding them.

I am basing this interpretation on lines like this from Vic, which I believe he has stated more than once, although this is the one I found:

Vic Wertz wrote:
The key word is "instead." If you do A instead of B, you did not do B. So if your armor says you may bury it instead of banishing it, and you choose to bury it, then you are not banishing it.


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Oh, it does say may recharge them instead. I missed that initially and thought the recharge was mandatory. In that case, yeah, it doesn't reduce Grazzle's power, just gives an alternative.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Xexyz wrote:
All cards and many powers require you to take some action with a card in order to generate an effect. In no cases does another power or effect that changes the ultimate destination of the card retroactively cancel the initial effect that was generated.

I see where you're coming from, but this case is not the same. You don't discard the cards to generate an effect (the 'heal' in this case). In fact, you can actually ONLY discard cards (if for example, you know you're going against one of those "character is dealt damage equal to the number of Weapons and Attack spells in you hand" monsters) and *stop right there*, no other effect involved.

THEN, you *may* immediately 'heal' players, through what is basically a second power - which only happens to base its efficiency on the previously performed action (the discarded cards). It doesn't 'cancel' a previously generated effect (reducing the strength of the heal) - it does generate that effect only *after* you're done with the first segment of the power.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I still think the intent of the power is that you still get the heal effect from the cards you recharged, because to do so otherwise makes it inconsistent with every other power that "redirects" - for lack of a better term - where cards end up after you play them.

For example, Blessing of Pharasma states, "Discard this card to explore your location". Feiya's Hexer role has a power that allows you to recharge a Blessing of Pharasma instead of discarding it when you play it. But if you do so, you still get the effect of the card even though you didn't discard it, which the card says you must do in order to get the effect of playing it.


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The difference is in the wording. "Discard a blessing to explore your location. If it was a Blessing of Pharasma, you may recharge it instead of discarding." Turns into "Discard a blessing to explore your location" and "Recharge a Blessing of Pharasma to explore your location."

In other words, you swap the action.

For Grazzle's power, the action is simply "Discard any number of cards." After discarding those cards, you maybe recharge some of them instead of discarding them. The heal cares about the number of cards you discarded, so if you recharge some cards instead of discarding them, the heal gets weaker.

The powers do not need to work the same way because they are not worded the same way.

Shadow Lodge

I'm with Xexyz. I've played grazzle through chapter four of season of the runelords and didn't think it was that powerful.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:

The difference is in the wording. "Discard a blessing to explore your location. If it was a Blessing of Pharasma, you may recharge it instead of discarding." Turns into "Discard a blessing to explore your location" and "Recharge a Blessing of Pharasma to explore your location."

In other words, you swap the action.

For Grazzle's power, the action is simply "Discard any number of cards." After discarding those cards, you maybe recharge some of them instead of discarding them. The heal cares about the number of cards you discarded, so if you recharge some cards instead of discarding them, the heal gets weaker.

The powers do not need to work the same way because they are not worded the same way.

Hmmm, I'll have to ponder this some more.

Lone Shark Games

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Elcoderdude's post is correct, as far as I know.

1) You must choose the number of cards first.
2) You heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.
3) Bog Medic recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way)


@Keith:
Thanks for the clarificarion!
Can you choose to discard 0 cards to take advantage of the additional healing from power feats alone?

Silver Crusade

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Doppelschwert wrote:

@Keith:

Thanks for the clarificarion!
Can you choose to discard 0 cards to take advantage of the additional healing from power feats alone?

There's an faq for that.


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Thanks for the link, Eliandra!


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A) Thanks elcoderdude for pointing on those possible misplays.

B) Thanks Keith on the clarity

Keith Richmond wrote:

Elcoderdude's post is correct, as far as I know.

1) You must choose the number of cards first.
2) You heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.
3) Bog Medic recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way)

I really like that power the way it is supposed to be played.

We have been wondering about the "too powerful or not". Some of us even proposed an house rule in the line of "a single character cannot be healed for more than the number of cards discarded" to reduce it a bit but not too much.
But at the end we just played it normally and it didn't really broke the game.


If this one hasn't been FAQd, it should be. As written, I know the recharged cards don't count for the healing, but somehow it just feels like they should.

Scarab Sages

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Keith Richmond wrote:

Elcoderdude's post is correct, as far as I know.

1) You must choose the number of cards first.
2) You heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.
3) Bog Medic recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way)

Thank the gods for that "may recharge" part in the Bog Medic's power, otherwise you could theoretically get to a point where you have nothing but cards with the Divine trait in your deck and thus not be able to actually discard to heal anyone.


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Zhayne wrote:
If this one hasn't been FAQd, it should be. As written, I know the recharged cards don't count for the healing, but somehow it just feels like they should.

That would totally break the game IMHO (at least in our 6p game).

Grazzle would build his deck with only divine cards. Then he could ultimately just wait for the others to all be highly wounded and spend his turn recharging his whole hand, healing up to 2*8+3=19 cards (it's 4 cards for each of the 5 others players).
If he does that twice in a 6p game (at his 2nd and 4th turn typically), pretty much nobody can die anymore, even with average odds on fights.
Moreover, everyone can use at two additional reexplore "for free" per turn since blessings and allies will be refreshed by Grazzle. That's something like 8 additional explores at each of Grazzle turns, for a total between 30 and 40 during the game. You just can't lose by the clock anymore.


Frencois wrote:


That would totally break the game IMHO (at least in our 6p game).
Grazzle would build his deck with only divine cards. Then he could ultimately just wait for the others to all be highly wounded and spend his turn recharging his whole hand, healing up to 2*8+3=19 cards (it's 4 cards for each of the 5 others players).

But Grazzle discards cards from his deck, not from his hand.


SimonB wrote:
Frencois wrote:


That would totally break the game IMHO (at least in our 6p game).
Grazzle would build his deck with only divine cards. Then he could ultimately just wait for the others to all be highly wounded and spend his turn recharging his whole hand, healing up to 2*8+3=19 cards (it's 4 cards for each of the 5 others players).
But Grazzle discards cards from his deck, not from his hand.

Right, Frencois meant to talk about the deck, not the hand, which only strengthens his case -- if Bog Medic Grazzle healed the cards he recharged from his deck, it's not unlikely he could heal (starting in Adventure 4) 2*10=20 cards for the other characters EVERY TURN.


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elcoderdude wrote:
SimonB wrote:
Frencois wrote:


That would totally break the game IMHO (at least in our 6p game).
Grazzle would build his deck with only divine cards. Then he could ultimately just wait for the others to all be highly wounded and spend his turn recharging his whole hand, healing up to 2*8+3=19 cards (it's 4 cards for each of the 5 others players).
But Grazzle discards cards from his deck, not from his hand.
Right, Frencois meant to talk about the deck, not the hand, which only strengthens his case -- if Bog Medic Grazzle healed the cards he recharged from his deck, it's not unlikely he could heal (starting in Adventure 4) 2*10=20 cards for the other characters EVERY TURN.

Ooops indeed I should have said deck not hand.

And indeed it just makes it worse. Actually Grazzle could just say "I'm gonna discard 1.000 cards from my deck", then discard the first one, "discover" it's divine and recharge it, and keep on going. Even with only a deck consisting of one divine card, he would heal thousands of cards on other characters.... Broken IMHO.


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In particular, if the Bog Medic healed the cards he recharged from his deck, that also means he keeps his hand available for his own turn, so you're losing nothing for the sake of healing. That's how I misplayed it in a game with 3 characters, which meant I could heal each other character by 10 cards every turn, and the only reason I did not do it every turn was because of sheer laziness.

Nevertheless, if the Bog Medic learns the cleric cure power instead of the recharge option, you can still do almost the same; in the long run, you can discard 3-4 cards from your deck each turn to heal 7-11 cards of other characters and heal yourself with the power feat back to full health with a high probability. It's more costly than misplay #2 but you can still reliably get roughly half of its effect if you really want to, and you can start as early as AD4 with this.

elcoderdude wrote:
EDIT: Ninja'd by the man himself! Grazzle has to choose to discard/recharge at least 1 card if he is to use his heal power at all based on this FAQ on "any number".

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't saw your edit when I asked the question the second time.


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Keith Richmond wrote:

Elcoderdude's post is correct, as far as I know.

1) You must choose the number of cards first.
2) You heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.
3) Bog Medic recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way)

And now this for the fun part: if you allow me Keith, I would like to errata your post. IMHO it should read:

1) You must choose the number of cards to be discarded first. IT HAS TO BE MINIMUM 1 and MAXIMUM the number of cards in your deck (*).
2) You draw cards one after the other. Unless you have the Bog Medic feat, a drawn card is discarded. If you have the feat, you choose to recharge or discard the card. Recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way).
3) WHEN you have discarded the number of cards first chosen, you heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.

The point here is that you MUST discard the chosen number of cards, even if when drawing you cards you discover that there a bunch you'd like to recharge and that doesn't allow you to discard enough (i. e. you can't indefinitely cycle your deck of divine cards, at some point you MUST discard some to reach your chosen number).

This is to avoid another misplay (IMHO) that could be this:

1) You must choose the number of cards to be discarded first. IT HAS TO BE MINIMUM 1.
2) You draw cards one after the other. Unless you have the Bog Medic feat, a drawn card is discarded. If you have the feat, you choose to recharge or discard the card. Recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way).
3) You stop drawing cards when you want.
4) IF you have discarded the number of cards first chosen, you heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.

See the difference? In that case you could, after drawing/recharging a number of divine cards, forfeit healing (e. g. you start an infinite cycle and just stop it). That could be used to get on top of your deck the cards you want. And for me that would be abusing Grazzle's feat.

(*) The MAXIMUM limit is to avoid another abuse using the "impossible" rule.


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Frencois wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
If this one hasn't been FAQd, it should be. As written, I know the recharged cards don't count for the healing, but somehow it just feels like they should.

That would totally break the game IMHO (at least in our 6p game).

Grazzle would build his deck with only divine cards. Then he could ultimately just wait for the others to all be highly wounded and spend his turn recharging his whole hand, healing up to 2*8+3=19 cards (it's 4 cards for each of the 5 others players).
If he does that twice in a 6p game (at his 2nd and 4th turn typically), pretty much nobody can die anymore, even with average odds on fights.
Moreover, everyone can use at two additional reexplore "for free" per turn since blessings and allies will be refreshed by Grazzle. That's something like 8 additional explores at each of Grazzle turns, for a total between 30 and 40 during the game. You just can't lose by the clock anymore.

Yes, this is the essence of it. Though I disagreed with the elcoderdude's interpretation of how the recharging worked I still always thought Grazzle's healing was the most powerful character ability in the game. Even with the realization that I've been playing the ability wrong I still think this. The ability to heal multiple people at once regardless of their location for a large amount of cards is just so incredibly strong, and changes the way the entire table plays. People can more freely burn through their decks because they know they'll get healed every turn. It also facilitates card cycle so he can pretty much cycle back into a cure spell to heal himself nearly every turn if he wants.


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Frencois wrote:
Keith Richmond wrote:

Elcoderdude's post is correct, as far as I know.

1) You must choose the number of cards first.
2) You heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.
3) Bog Medic recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way)

And now this for the fun part: if you allow me Keith, I would like to errata your post. IMHO it should read:

1) You must choose the number of cards to be discarded first. IT HAS TO BE MINIMUM 1 and MAXIMUM the number of cards in your deck (*).
2) You draw cards one after the other. Unless you have the Bog Medic feat, a drawn card is discarded. If you have the feat, you choose to recharge or discard the card. Recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way).
3) WHEN you have discarded the number of cards first chosen, you heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.

The point here is that you MUST discard the chosen number of cards, even if when drawing you cards you discover that there a bunch you'd like to recharge and that doesn't allow you to discard enough (i. e. you can't indefinitely cycle your deck of divine cards, at some point you MUST discard some to reach your chosen number).

This is to avoid another misplay (IMHO) that could be this:

1) You must choose the number of cards to be discarded first. IT HAS TO BE MINIMUM 1.
2) You draw cards one after the other. Unless you have the Bog Medic feat, a drawn card is discarded. If you have the feat, you choose to recharge or discard the card. Recharged cards aren't discarded, so don't contribute to that healing (but you can save/thin your deck nicely this way).
3) You stop drawing cards when you want.
4) IF you have discarded the number of cards first chosen, you heal 2N(+X) cards _total_, not each.

See the difference? In that case you could, after drawing/recharging a number of divine cards, forfeit healing (e. g. you start an infinite cycle and just stop it). That...

Your edits to point 1 are somewhat incorrect; min 1 is already a rule in the rulebook. The max isn't an issue due to impossible--we're already told that if you need to remove a card from your deck for any reason and can't that you die. So, if you pick more cards than are in your deck, you die before the heal goes off (and therefore the heal doesn't go off; the "immediately end your turn" part of dying short-circuits the rest of the power)

You do not choose a number of cards you are definitely discarding, you are choosing a number of cards. Some of those cards may be recharged instead of discarded, so that the number of discarded cards might be less than the number you originally chose. You pick the number before looking at any of the cards in your deck, there is no "seeing what I discard and deciding to keep going or stop."


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skizzerz wrote:
You do not choose a number of cards you are definitely discarding, you are choosing a number of cards. Some of those cards may be recharged instead of discarded, so that the number of discarded cards might be less than the number you originally chose. You pick the number before looking at any of the cards in your deck, there is no "seeing what I discard and deciding to keep going or stop."

Hum, not sure about that skizzerz. If I understood weel, the power says "At the start of your turn, you may discard any number of cards from the top of your deck." It doesn't say "At the start of your turn, you may draw/select/display any number of cards from the top of your deck, then...." So the number of cards you chose is the number of cards that will ultimately be discarded, not the number of cards that will be somehow drawn from you deck (and then discarded or recharged).

I agree that "You pick the number before looking at any of the cards in your deck".

But then in order to ensure you get to ultimately discard N cards, you have to draw them one by one and decide each time (if divine) if you discard or recharge. I see it similar as the "examine N cards" power: you have to handle it one by one since the result depends on what happens with the first card.

If your way of playing is the "right" way, then it needs a FAQ because as written "any number of cards" applies to discarded cards, not drawn. AS per Vic usual statement "instead" means recharged cards were never discarded, so they do not count.


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Per the rule "Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action." The first action is "Discard any number of cards." You choose the number at that point in time. The number you choose is the total number of cards you're discarding off the top of your deck. A further instruction lets you recharge some of those cards instead of discarding them, but that does not change the number you chose.

I see where you are stating that the number has to be the number actually discarded, but that interpretation isn't supported by the power imo. If it wanted you to actually discard that number of cards, I'd think it would be worded something like "Choose a number greater than 0, then discard cards from the top of your deck until that number of cards is discarded. ([ ] If a card discarded this way has the Divine trait, you may recharge it instead of discarding it.). ..." -- in other words, it would tell you to discard one at a time.

As-written, I believe that you pick up and discard all N cards simultaneously, then check that pile for the Divine trait and recharge those instead.


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Tricky. Candidate for the weekly can'o'worms contest. Vic?


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While I agree with this interpretation that elcoderdude and Doppelschwert have posted here for game balance, I still think that if this was the intent then they need to do a better job of wording powers. There are plenty of powers that allow recharge instead of discard and you still get the effect of the original discard. I feel like #2 mistake would be a typical player's interpretation.


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Merely adding my two cents - I would have fallen into the #2 trap as well. This thread has convinced me (especially with balance considerations) that it was not the design intent, however, but the mechanic of "Replace one cost with another, without affecting the result" is so ingrained into this game that I wouldn't have thought twice about this power.

So consider me with Slacker2010 on this. Agree on the interpretation; question the wording.


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Until proven guilty I'll go with skizzerz last post. Which means you pick a number x (min 1), flip x cards from your deck. Recharge the y divine ones you want in the order you want. Discard the others. Heal a total of (x-y)*2+0/1/2/3 cards on other characters.

Example: I decide to flip 6 cards. 3 are divine. I decide to recharge 2 of those. I discard the 4 others. If I checked the "2 plus twice..." power box, I get to heal 4*2+2=10 cards.

Still very powerful.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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skizzerz wrote:
Per the rule "Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action." The first action is "Discard any number of cards." You choose the number at that point in time. The number you choose is the total number of cards you're discarding off the top of your deck. A further instruction lets you recharge some of those cards instead of discarding them, but that does not change the number you chose.

Correct.


Vic Wertz wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
Per the rule "Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action." The first action is "Discard any number of cards." You choose the number at that point in time. The number you choose is the total number of cards you're discarding off the top of your deck. A further instruction lets you recharge some of those cards instead of discarding them, but that does not change the number you chose.
Correct.

So wait then is that "I'm discarding 4 cards, 2 get recharged so heal a total of 4 or 8?"


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It'd be 4 cards. Choosing 4 means you take the top 4 cards and discard them (and maybe recharge some). The total number of cards that end up in your discard pile may therefore be less than 4. You heal twice the number of cars that actually end up in your discard, in this case twice 2 (which is 4).

Choosing 4 does NOT mean you MUST have 4 cards in your discard. In other words if you recharged two of the top 4 cards, you do not try to discard another 2 cards (for a total of 6 cards discarded/recharged).


Talonhawke wrote:
So wait then is that "I'm discarding 4 cards, 2 get recharged so heal a total of 4 or 8?"

I think he just side stepped the issue and answered a different question. Probably don't have an official explanation fleshed out.


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Talonhawke wrote:
So wait then is that "I'm discarding 4 cards, 2 get recharged so heal a total of 4 or 8?"

4 cards healed indeed. See Keith's answer above. That point was clear.

As Slacker said, Vic's answer only add the fact that if you select to discard 6 cards, flip those 6 cards, discover that 3 of them are divine and decide to recharge 2 of those, then you don't get to discard 2 more from your deck in order to finaly have 6 real discarded cards.

Thus you'll end up discarding 4 / recharging 2 / healing 8
and not
discarding 6 / recharging 2 / healing 12

But in any case, we already knew that the 2 recharged cards DO NOT allow to heal cards


Okay that's where I was getting lost. Thanks!


I interpreted the power as - you choose to a discard a specific number of cards at the start of the turn. The amount of healing comes from the amount of cards you chose to discard. The bog medic power intervenes after the cards are discarded and turns the discard into a recharge instead (if the cards have the divine trait). The cards WERE discarded but recharged after the fact. This does work in the same manner as other similar discard into recharge effects.

It is indeed powerful, but lots of characters just are really, really powerful. (See Damiel from the Alchemist's Class Deck) The characters aren't all balanced to be similarly powerful. The characters in the class decks (which I own all of and love) are really varied in their power level.

I played a 4 player game of the entire RotR Adventure Path with Grazzle. I played him as above. He was very powerful, but so fun and satisfying to play. He's fantastic to play with weaker characters who need to be carried a bit, like Rooboo.

If you play with the recharged cards not contributing to healing he would still be really powerful, and just as fun. I adore PACG but it's not completely unambiguous so it's often best to play in the way which you will enjoy most.

THE most important thing about Grazzle is that when you are playing him you need to roleplay all his interactions with a gravelly lizard voice and have him be obsessed with fighting skeletons and going to graveyard locations because of his great loves of bones.

Seriously, everyone should play Grazzle, he's awesome.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
otakugirly wrote:
I interpreted the power as - you choose to a discard a specific number of cards at the start of the turn. The amount of healing comes from the amount of cards you chose to discard. The bog medic power intervenes after the cards are discarded and turns the discard into a recharge instead (if the cards have the divine trait). The cards WERE discarded but recharged after the fact. This does work in the same manner as other similar discard into recharge effects.

While you are free to play that way (as long as you aren't doing Organized Play), that is not the correct interpretation rules-wise. If you do something instead of something else, the first thing never happens. If you recharge cards instead of discarding them, they were never discarded and they never hit your discard pile. How this power is supposed to work has already been officially clarified.


skizzerz wrote:
otakugirly wrote:
I interpreted the power as - you choose to a discard a specific number of cards at the start of the turn. The amount of healing comes from the amount of cards you chose to discard. The bog medic power intervenes after the cards are discarded and turns the discard into a recharge instead (if the cards have the divine trait). The cards WERE discarded but recharged after the fact. This does work in the same manner as other similar discard into recharge effects.
While you are free to play that way (as long as you aren't doing Organized Play), that is not the correct interpretation rules-wise.

Seconding skizzerz.

otakugirly -- did you read the whole thread? Keith Richmond (of Lone Shark Games -- the designers of PACG, right) says your interpretation is wrong. And Vic Wertz - who has the final say in all such matters at Paizo - posted in this thread without disagreeing with Keith, so you can take Keith's ruling as gospel.


I did read the whole thread, but I've been unwell so my reading comprehension wasn't top notch, sorry about that. Keith's reply was qualified with "as far as I know" so I didn't take it as gospel. Sorry about that. :)

Thank you for replying to me.

That being the case Seelah from Rise of the Runelord's power is a lot worse than I assumed.

Her first power reads - You may discard the top card of your deck to add 1d6 to your check. If the top card was a blessing, recharge it instead of discarding.

So if she attempts a check and uses her top power to add 1d6 then if she hits a blessing instead of another card it recharges and she gets no benefit from it? That seems terrible. When she really needs a boost it might do nothing at all if she hits a blessing or spell.

Am I interpreting that correctly?

I'm definitely not saying your wrong by the way, just that for some characters that interpretation is really harsh.

I'm not able to do OP play, mostly because of health issues and also there's none near where I live in the UK so my incorrect assumptions haven't been a problem for other people. I play a lot with my husband and occasionally with friends. :)


So if i use the power "discard this card to add one dice to any check" on a blessing, but then recharge it instead, it doesn't add the dice anymore? There are loads of powers that say to discard something, butt then offer a way to recharge it instead. I guess we now have to play them all as not working.

If the recharged cards do not count then why did they write the power is such an awful and difficult to understand way? They way it is written it makes much more sense that they do count and that recharging them is a bonus good thing, not the penalty the new ruling gives. What an insult of a power tick that is.

If they did not mean it that way then it was written in an appallingly bad way. I mean, seriously, if who ever designed that card thought that they had written it to do that then they are terrible at communication. If this is the official ruling then maybe they should think about not putting powers on cards that are massively unintuitive. They might also think about the whole blessing thing.


Sorry to post again so soon but I was actually cleaning up a game of pathfinder and noticed the text on the blessings

"Discard this card to add 1 die to any check....

... After you play this card, if it matches the top card of the blessings discard pile, recharge this card instead of discarding it."

That power would be entirely pointless if recharging instead of discarding meant the power didn't activate. It's ended up being recharged instead of discarded so it wasn't discarded so it doesn't give you the extra dice.


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The crucial difference here is that Grazzle's power explicitly refers to 'the number of cards you discarded', which changes when you recharge them instead of discarding them.

The effects you are quoting only care about a cost being paid, and you still get their effect when the costs are being changed by something else. That's the intention and how you've always played them. But Grazzle's power does not follow this format - he is not telling you to 'discard a card from the top of your deck to (...heal 2 cards each)' - you just discard (or recharge) them and afterwards the follow-up clause cares about the number of cards you discarded.

Do you see the difference?

Lone Shark Games

otakugirly wrote:
Keith's reply was qualified with "as far as I know" so I didn't take it as gospel. Sorry about that. :)

Don't be sorry :) I purposefully qualify my statements, since Vic and Mike are the true rules arbiters. I get the benefits of being an active forum participant without the onus of needing to triple-check and discuss before responding.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
otakugirly wrote:
So if she attempts a check and uses her top power to add 1d6 then if she hits a blessing instead of another card it recharges and she gets no benefit from it? That seems terrible. When she really needs a boost it might do nothing at all if she hits a blessing or spell.

It may be easier to comprehend if you imagine that Seelah's power (and similar for Blessings, etc.) says:

"You may ATTEMPT to discard the top card of your deck; if you do ATTEMPT, add 1d6 to your check. If the card you attempted to discard is a Blessing - you may recharge it instead"

The point being, Seelah's power and Blessings care that you play them - you ARE willing to pay a price, so you get their effect. The fact that you may actually end up reducing the 'price' (recharge instead of discard) is immaterial to the effect taking place. If Seelah said "...if the card is a Blessing, return it to the top of your deck instead" - you would STILL get the benefit, even though you didn't actually end up 'paying' anything!

In contrast, Grazzle says:
"...the total number of cards shuffled must not exceed (□ 1 plus) twice the number of cards you discarded."

So Grazzle doesn't just care that you were *willing* to discard - he cares that the cards *actually* end up in your discard pile (which doesn't happen if you chose to recharge them).

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