Looking for Group; Rules experiementation and possibly unique world exploration


Recruitment

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I've tried getting players to test out houserules by recruiting for modules or based on a unique setting to explore, but without success, so this time, I am just recruiting for players who are willing to seriously step outside the norm. Details such as module or not, unique setting or generic fantasy, try all the new rules at once or just a few at a time, etc will be a group decision. Though most of these aim for commonplace magic yet gritty feel (as in most people have magic but don't expect even pcs to be demigods).

An overview of the types of rules changes (which modify pf/d20),

# - Replacing hp with a save-vs-dmg and gain injury conditions (like injured leg which reduces speed, etc).

# - Splitting levels into tier and rank (the most complicated section, but it allows you to gain versatility without raw numerical power. You could, in thoery as an extreme case, end up at level 100 and still be at tier 5 with only 5 hit dice +5 to hit, etc).

# - Magic is redone to require a skill check with different skills for different schools/groupings-of-spells, metamagic affects the dc, caster level is based on margins of success, and magic becomes a bit more limited in some ways, particularly dmg and healing.

# - d20 replaced by 2d10 for some weighting of average values but not as strongly as 3d6 and easier to implement.

As just a sample of the strangeness I'm looking to testplay.

All rules will be dicussed in greater detail and with player feedback before starting.

Is anyone interested? If not, what turns you away?


I'm uncertain what you mean by Tier and Rank, but I dig what I hear about the die changes and magic tests and HP changes.


The idea behind tier and rank is to make pure numerical power, such as bab, base save bonuses, hd, etc progress separately from gaining new class features and options. Casters need a bit more work than other classes though.

Essentially you could have a tier selected, such as 6 for an e6 like game with plenty of advancement but remaining gritty, but could also select 15 or 20 for superheroes that start with super level of raw power but need to grow and learn how to apply their power.

I liked the goal of e6 to keep things gritty, but I didn't like that it prevented you from exploring a lot of options that could otherwise fit a gritty game. I also wanted to be to include the full range of 20 levels but yet soend more time at lower levels without slowing advancement because advancement is a major part of the fun.

So tier advances the raw numerical power, while rank is the versatility and options advancement.

In thoery, you could have 20 levels in 5 classes (for a level 100 character) and yet still have numerical power on par for a lvl 1 character. Doubt it'd work very well at such an extreme, but I'd be interested in trying it out anyway.

Basically it turns a 20 level progression into an occupational doctorate. Still mortal human on par with the real world (at low tier anyway) but with a complete mastery over a subject.

Magic is the tricky part. How powerful a spell is non-numerically varies wildly, and not just by mechanics either. Player creativity and gm ability are also major factors.


So is the idea basically that you'd level up, and you'd choose to either gain class features or increase your BAB/Saves/HD? Or that they'd both still level up but at different speeds (like gaining 1 rank in BAB/etc for every 2 ranks in class features?) Or would it just be dictated by the GM at any given time?

Either way it's a pretty neat idea. I like them being separate for the different options that a GM could apply to it - your example about Superheroes in particular is interesting. Having the physical form but not necessarily knowing how to use their abilities. I dig that. Likewise the inverse of "You're sort of weak but have a lot of options" is something that I'm always a fan of.


Tier would be improved in one of two ways depending on how the group decided for that game because tier is basically the control on power level.

If the group decides on remaining at a specific power range, a set tier can be chosen that remains unchanged throughout play. For example choosing tier 4 to stay grounded in a gritty "realism."

If the group wants some growth in tier, then tier would improve based on story arc.

The way I solved gaining feats, skill points, and ability score improvements, as well as multiclassing is centered on the xp tables. Tier thus could be based on total xp, but I feel tier is better served as a narrative reward as it most closely represents a character's agency in the world rather than skill or knowledge and gaining a tier fits best with a turning point in the character's lives.


Could be interesting.

I've toyed around with similar ideas around magic in an attempt to bridge the "martial vs. magic gap", so that would be the most interesting bit to test out from my perspective.


I think it sounds interesting, the orginal tier post had me confused but now I think its making more sense. Take a spear weilding fighter. The more he uses the spear the better he is with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's better all around like base saves, so when he advances he would maybe get a feat in that area. Or he went into an abandoned house and had to deal with other worldly beings boom, there's the bravery advancement. I could have this completely wrong but I always likes the idea of improving through the story and not through the stats. "how did you learn that language? Oh i put a level in linguistics and picked it." that makes less sense to me then okay you each get X ammount of downtime to improve on something.

I feel like I began to stray a bit from my original thought, but either way I'm interested.


It is mostly in how you think of it and use the rules.

In what I call the Character Agency playstyle, you have to justify your level up choices (or rolls for that matter), such as having it established that you were studying another language in order to select that while leveling.

Most players don't play Character Agency style though, leading to weirdness like what you pointed out about having another language for no reason other than putting a point into Linguistics.

###
With three interested players, time to start getting some idea of what everyone wants to play,

Edit: 0 - Do you want to discuss the rules in detail before answering the following?

1 - Do you want to explore a rather unique setting, or more generic fantasy?

2 - Do you want to try all these rules ideas or just certain ones?

3 - Do you want to play some mildly reflavored Season 6 pathfinder scenerios, or something more sandboxish?

4 - If going for my unique setting (which is quite expansive) what would you like to see or try? Magi-tech? Survival? Frontier Exploration? Floating islands amongst an endless sea of air? Unlimited dungeon delving?


hmm, dotting for interest.


1- Either is fine for me, I like fantasy but the location could be something exotic, I'm not super into high tech settings, but I'm flexable.

2- the only rule that I'm not wild about is the one about 2d10 instead of d20, just because I love when a 1 is rolled, I mean I hate it, but I also love it. The first rule I like the part about injury, but I don't fully understand the save vs damage. The others are cool and I definitely want to try the leveling rule.

3-whatever works for you, I like a sandbox, but I realize you are already doing a lot of work.

4-all but magi-tech sound good, though I have to admit I don't exactly know what that is. Also unlimited dungeon sounds like a great way to test mechanics but maybe not as fun as the others, maybe there is a big dungeon in one of the other places.

So that's what I've got to say.

Contributor

The tier/rank split sounds interesting, I'd definitely be willing to give that a try. Same for the injury conditions. The other two rules I'm not so sure about.

I'd be fine with playing it in a generic fantasy setting or a reskinned Scenario.


Magi-tech just refers to technology built on magic rather than mundane science and can be as simple as a magic lantern or as complex as a magic spaceship rivaling star trek. The key difference from standard magic items is presentation, fluff, and limitation, but can be as simple as a magic powered grindstone to magic powered computers. Magi-tech is not handwaved as some black-box process that works to enchant anything with anything, but has fluff that states or implies that certain rules beyond sentient conceptions/expectations affect the magic item's functionability, such as different materials reacting differently to magic.

TL;DR magi-tech is magic items handled more like science fiction in having explainable (whether explained or merely implied) details as opposed to being black box fantasy where anything works simply because it is "magic."

Sandbox would be harder for players than for me. I have improvised entire campaigns by the seat of my pants with no prep nor resources, but it does require more effort from the players to establish goals, push things forward, and keep trying to achieve said goals.

2d10 would simply have crit miss on snake eyes rather than 1, but that crit failure would still be there. Just fyi.

Save vs Damage is basically that when you are hit, you make a soak roll (similar to making a fort save), and the DC is the damage of the attack, success means you are simply bruised or similar minor damage, but you take a penalty on further soak rolls, but if you fail a soak roll, then you get injured and gain an injury condition.

So far
Interest shown,
YoricksRequiem
Talomyr
Uthraed
Michelle A.J.

[general impression for the moment. I'll go through with a more detailed comparison once more feedback is in]
Significant support for tier/rank, and replace hp
one person wants the magic rules specifically
2d10 opposed specifically


I'm on board with using all the rule changes, but some of my interest definitely hinges on the setting / style. I'm much more interested in something unique over generic (but fairly flexible on what that unique thing is), and I'm not into the megadungeon idea - I'd like more of a balanced blend of social / exploration / combat.


TheAlicornSage wrote:


Edit: 0 - Do you want to discuss the rules in detail before answering the following?

1 - Do you want to explore a rather unique setting, or more generic fantasy?

2 - Do you want to try all these rules ideas or just certain ones?

3 - Do you want to play some mildly reflavored Season 6 pathfinder scenerios, or something more sandboxish?

4 - If going for my unique setting (which is quite expansive) what would you like to see or try? Magi-tech? Survival? Frontier Exploration? Floating islands amongst an endless sea of air? Unlimited dungeon delving?

0 - I think I'm ok with more detailed discussion around which rules are being tested after choice has been made.

1 - I'm flexible on this one.

2 - I'm fine with trying out any/all of the changes, but like I mentioned before, I'm specifically interested in the magic rules.

3 - I have a preference for sandbox, but I am happy to go with the consensus.

4 - I'm a bit leery of Magi-tech type stuff and massive dungeon crawls tend to get a bit tedious in my opinion. The others sound fine.


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Okay, BeastMaster hasn't said anything yet, but from the current opinions,

Tier/rank seems to be a popular choice, followed by health/injury.

Magic is called out with strong support and one not sure about it.

2d10 and dungeon delving are voted against.

Everything else seems to have mild leanings, for sandbox, against magi-tech (though I get the impression this is more meaning higher tech magi-tech like radios, computers, and clockwork type things, feel free to correct that if I'm mistaken)

So draft plan, we'll use the tier/rank advancement rules, the skillful magic rules, and the soak roll/injury rules. The game will take place in a unique setting but without significant magi-tech.

Tentative for the moment while I digitize it all and discuss it with everyone. Everyone agree with this starting point?


Sounds good to me.


For clarification to anyone wondering, recruitment remains open until I get around 6 or so players.


TheAlicornSage wrote:
Tentative for the moment while I digitize it all and discuss it with everyone. Everyone agree with this starting point?

I'm on board with that.


What I have digitized so far for the health rules, I few things left to digitized, but mostly details. Let me know what you think so far and if you feel anything is left out, too complicated, or otherwise needs changed.

Spoiler:

To start, the simple one. Replacing HP.

The idea here is that when you are hit, you roll a soak roll. A soak roll is your hit dice plus con modifier plus any applicable resistances/dr minus a penalty for previous hits called wound points. The DC for a soak roll is the damage taken from the hit.

Regardless of the result of the soak roll, you take a number of wound points equal to the tier of the attacker. Damage from sources without a tier, such as falling into a campfire or stepping on caltrops, is tier one by default. However, these wound points are gained after the soak roll is made.

soak >= dmg
If the soak roll is equal or higher than the damage of the attack, nothing happens aside from gaining the wound points.

soak < dmg
If the soak roll is less than the damage taken, an injury is gained.

soak < 0
If the soak roll is less than 0, or the hit was a critical hit, a critical injury is gained, some of which may lead to death (see my note on death near the end).

Injury gained
Upon gaining an injury, roll a d12 to determine location. 1-2 foot, 3-4 hand, 5-6 leg, 7-8 arm, 9 groin/gut/similar, 10 chest, 11 back, 12 head. Where applicable, odd number is left and even number is right. See the location effects below.

Critical Injury
Anytime a critical injury is gained, roll a will save DC 15 or be incapacitated/unconscious (if failed, reroll every round to become awake and disabled). Succeeding on the will save results in being disabled instead (disabled is slightly altered so that if you take strenuous action you must make a will save dc 15+5 per injury or fall unconscious. Strenuous actions cause you to become dying [dying is altered, see below]).

Critical injuries use the same location roll, but the effects are more severe.

Nonlethal
The only difference with nonlethal is that disabled becomes staggered, rolling a regular injury instead gets double wound points, and critical injury effects are instead the effects of normal injuries to the same location (you still have the will save to remain conscious and other effects from getting a critical injury).

Additionally, if all of a character's wound points were caused by nonlethal attacks, then they recover at triple the normal rate until gone or lethal damage is taken.

Healing
Natural healing,
Wound points heal at a rate equal to one's con modifier per 8 hours of rest (which can be light activity such as reading, handling paperwok, having a conversation, playing lookout on a wagon of a caravan, etc), plus one if properly treated or with restful sleep, plus two if both. Halve this amount for a character suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar condition) or handling stressful but not physically taxing activities, or if the character has a critical injury (as the body focuses on the major damage). Physically taxing situations or while suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar) recovers only 1 wound point per day.

Ability score damage heals exactly like wound points except instead of per 8 hours it is per 48 hours instead.

A dying character without aid must become stable first (see Dying condition). Once stable, roll a fort save every hour DC 20 +2 per critical injury, to become conscious.

A dying character with aid rolls to become conscious every half hour and with DC 15 +1 per critical injury.

Some critical injury effects can take a long time to heal or even become permenant without magical (or technologically advanced) healing. Under the injury descriptions, those effects labeled with PR* get a roll after the encounter to see how long the injury takes to heal. Roll a d6 and a d4. The d6 is how many time periods per increment of recovery, and the d4 is how long the time increments are (1=days, 2=weeks, 3=months, 4= permenant).

Magical healing
Healing spells that heal hit points heal wound points instead and in their normal amounts. Such spells can also be cast to automatically stabilize a dying character, or to reduce the DC of a beneficial heal check by 5.

Healing an injury requires a restoration spell or similar to be cast once for each time increment rolled for the injury. If the spell could replace a lost limb, it only needs to be cast once per injury. Such spells can take effect once per day (basically the spell is cast and it takes a day for the spell effect to complete).

Death
Unlike normal PF, the dead can be brought back to life within a number of hours equal to the dead character's charisma score by healing the critical injury that resulted in death either with
A) powerful restoration type healing magic,
B) making a dc 20 heal check with lesser cure-type magic healing, or
C) making a dc 30 heal check if no magic healing is available.

Upon doing so, the dead character is revived but unconcious.

Things left to clarify;
-dying and stablizing
-disabled
-called shots
-attacks/damage that targets specific locations (i.e. caltrops)

Location injury effects,

Arm,
Note, use this entry for wings, plus the following effect, If a wing is injured, the creature can not fly with out magic though may glide with a DC 18 Fly check. If critically injured wing, can not fly without magic and may only fall as if affected by feather fall (without duration limit) as long as one good wing remains.
--Injury; -2 on any check using the arm. If the same arm gets hit twice, the penalty becomes -6. If the same arm gets hit a third time, it counts as three injuries but use the penalties of a critical injury.
--Critical Injury; the arm is limp and useless (unless the attack was a slashing weapon in which case the arm is severed). Take 1d4 strength damage, and a -6 penalty to dex (won't reduce dex below 1). The dex penalty is reduced by to -3 if the arm is put in a loose sling, or -2 if put in a tight sling. The dex penalty applies only to large body movements, such as acrobatics and balance.

Chest/Back
--Injury; 1d4 constitution damage. Multiple hits to the chest or back stack. Become fatigued, or if already fatigued, become exhausted.
--Critical Injury; 2d4 constitution damage and become stunned till a will save DC 15 is passed (rolled at the start of every turn). PR* effect, become exhausted. Halfway through recovery time, reduce this to fatigue. Three critical injuries to the chest/back, or if constitution drops to 0 from injuries, become dying.

Ears
--Injury; Take a -4 penalty to any perception checks based on hearing. Staggered until pass a fort save DC 15 (rolled at beginning of turn).
--Critical Injury; PR* Become deafened. Unless magically healed with restoration, take a permanent -2 to checks involving hearing.

Eye
--Injury;
--Critical Injury;


Oh, layout and presentation are just as important, so feedback of that sort is welcome.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, honest critiques will never bother me.

Will post an update sometime tonight.


I was just about to bring up called shots, but after rereading your post I see that you have already addressed them, or rather addressed that they need to be addressed. I love the idea of called shots with this wound system. I was in a game where called shots incurred a penalty, but I really didn't like that, maybe a penalty if going for a head shot, but I feel like the other extremities and center mass would be normal.

I was wondering about dying as well, are wound points effectively taking the place of hp. So if you drop to below zero you are unconscious. I think that that would make sense but maybe not unconscious and dying just unable to do anything.

I also noticed that ability damage is addressed, and I have to say that I love that it takes longer to be healed on it's own, but ability drain was not brought up. I am no expert on the rules of the game but I think that drain should be healed more like an injury, or possibly a critical injury.

Some other ideas that I had with regards to the injuries are

Ears: lopped off- take a -2 to charisma damage.
and of course deafness and blindness for ears and eyes respectively

Eyes, maybe a brow cut like take a - on attack rolls as blood obstructs your vision

I believe that both of those are from The Glass Cannon Podcasts Critical Fumbles


Here is everything but all the injury effects, I'll get to answering your questions momentarily.

Health Rules v0.1:

The idea here is that when you are hit, you roll a soak roll. A soak roll is your hit dice plus con modifier plus any applicable resistances/dr minus a penalty for previous hits called wound points. The DC for a soak roll is the damage taken from the hit.

Regardless of the result of the soak roll, you take a number of wound points equal to the tier of the attacker. Damage from sources without a tier, such as falling into a campfire or stepping on caltrops, is tier one by default. However, these wound points are gained after the soak roll is made.

soak >= dmg
If the soak roll is equal or higher than the damage of the attack, nothing happens aside from gaining the wound points.

soak < dmg
If the soak roll is less than the damage taken, an injury is gained.

soak < 0
If the soak roll is less than 0, or the hit was a critical hit, a critical injury is gained, some of which may lead to death (see my note on death near the end).

Injury gained
Upon gaining an injury, roll a d12 to determine location. 1-2 foot, 3-4 hand, 5-6 leg, 7-8 arm, 9 groin/gut/similar, 10 chest, 11 back, 12 head. Where applicable, odd number is left and even number is right. See the location effects below.

Critical Injury
Anytime a critical injury is gained, roll a will save DC 15+5 per critical injury or be incapacitated/unconscious (if failed, reroll every round to become awake and disabled). Succeeding on the will save results in being disabled instead (disabled is slightly altered so that if you take strenuous action you must make a will save dc 15+5 per injury or fall unconscious. Strenuous actions cause you to become dying [dying is altered, see below]).

Critical injuries use the same location roll, but the effects are more severe.

Nonlethal
The only difference with nonlethal is that disabled becomes staggered, rolling a regular injury instead gets double wound points, and critical injury effects are instead the effects of normal injuries to the same location (you still have the will save to remain conscious and other effects from getting a critical injury).

Additionally, if all of a character's wound points were caused by nonlethal attacks, then they recover at triple the normal rate until gone or lethal damage is taken.

Healing
Natural healing,
Wound points heal at a rate equal to one's con modifier per 8 hours of rest (which can be light activity such as reading, handling paperwok, having a conversation, playing lookout on a wagon of a caravan, etc), +1 if properly treated or with restful sleep, +2 if both. Halve this amount for a character suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar condition/circumstance) or handling stressful but not physically taxing activities, or if the character has a critical injury (as the body focuses on the major damage). Physically taxing situations or while suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar) recovers only 1 wound point per day.

Ability score damage heals exactly like wound points except instead of per 8 hours it is per 48 hours instead.

A dying character without aid must become stable first (see Dying condition). Once stable, roll a fort save every hour DC 15+5 per critical injury, to become conscious.

A dying character with aid rolls to become conscious every half hour and with DC 15 +1 per critical injury.

Some critical injury effects can take a long time to heal or even become permenant without magical (or technologically advanced) healing. Under the injury descriptions, those effects labeled with PR* get a roll after the encounter to see how long the injury takes to heal. Roll a d6 and a d4. The d6 is how many time periods per increment of recovery, and the d4 is how long the time increments are (1=days, 2=weeks, 3=months, 4= permenant).

Magical healing
Healing spells that heal hit points heal wound points instead and in their normal amounts. Such spells can also be cast to automatically stabilize a dying character, or to reduce the DC of a beneficial heal check by 5.

Healing an injury requires a restoration spell or similar to be cast once for each time increment rolled for the injury. If the spell could replace a lost limb, it only needs to be cast once per injury. Such spells can take effect once per day (basically the spell is cast and it takes a day for the spell effect to complete).

Death
Unlike normal PF, the dead can be brought back to life within a number of hours equal to the dead character's charisma score by healing the critical injury that resulted in death either with
A) powerful restoration type healing magic,
B) making a dc 20 heal check with lesser cure-type magic healing, or
C) making a dc 30 heal check if no magic healing is available.

Upon doing so, the dead character is revived but unconcious.

Naturally Targeted Attacks
Some attacks or attackers are naturally limited in hit locations. I.E. caltrops only target the feet, sonic damage targets ears and soft organ, etc. For such attacks, just use common sense.

Called Shots
Called shots must be declared prior to the attack roll. A called shot uses the size modifier of the part targeted and particularly vital areas (head, neck, groin, etc) get twice the dex bonus (or half the dex penalty if negative dex modifier). If the attack results in an injury or critical injury, the location is what was declared as targeted instead of being rolled.

For humanoids, limbs such as arms, legs, and wings, as well as the torso, are 1 size smaller than the creature. The head is 2 sizes smaller. Hands, feet, eyes, and ears are 3 sizes smaller.

Disabled
A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions, but he can still take swift, immediate, and free actions). He moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but performing any strenuous action, including actions like casting a quickened spell, require a will save dc 15+5 per injury to avoid falling unconscious. Strenuous actions cause you to become dying regardless of the will save, unless those actions were successful healing actions or otherwise removed the disabled condition.

Dying
A dying creature is disabled and near death. Creatures that became disabled and have not stabilized are dying. On the character's next turn, after becoming disabled, and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to five for each of their critical injuries. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, they take 1 point of constitution damage. If the Constitution score reaches 0, the creature dies.

Stable
Once a character succeeds on a stabilization check, they become stable and are no longer dying. Becoming stable does not remove the disabled condition.


Called shots here simply use the size modifier for the targeted location (though the head and vitals get a penalty), but do remember, a general attack is partly taking advantage of opportunities, where-as a called shot is ignoring such opportunities in favor of focusing on a specific target. A penalty would represent that.

Wound points are not hp. Wound points are a cumulative penalty to soak rolls, allowing a "death by a thousand cuts" so that even facing a titan of a high tier monster, an army of common folk could still actually hurt it. I only gave them a name since I have cure spells affecting them.

Ability drain is something I forgot existed. In fact, for all the years I've played, I've never actually seen ability drain in play, and I've been playing since 3.0. I'll have to take a closer look at drain and add it in.

Injury effects. Need to be careful here. There is a need to be generic enough in the penalties and description that the specifics can have plenty of room to be set by the players/gm rather than the rules, particularly in light of different damage types. For example, I don't think sonic damage will have quite the same physical results as slashing damage.


Something else, my original write up had this including armor as dr style (armor adds to withstanding blows but makes it harder to avoid blows), which I forgot about till I was digitizing it. I could reinclude that if everyone wants.


I do apologize, it is taking me longer than I expected to type this stuff up on my phone.

Then I stupidly started on tier when I still need to finish the location effects. Clearly I'm an idiot sometimes. Luckily it is only sometimes. :)

Here is what I got of tier so far. I'll finish the injury effects before continuing here.

Please note, I wrote each of these to be independently applied to the core rules, thus, some things from the magic rules will alter what is below, such as spell slots will be affected.

Spoiler:

This concept splits numerical power from versatility, allowing a game more versatility in handing the overall power of the world and it's inhabitants.

Character's no longer have a character level, instead they have a Tier. Tier is the overall numerical power and agency of the character.

Like normal d20, Tiers 1-5 covers the range of natural mundane humans relatable to the real world. Tiers 6-10 are supernatural powers, more powerful than a real world human could ever hope to be, but not by much and small groups of mundanes can often beat individuals of this tier if well prepared and utilize teamwork. Tiers 11-15 are basically superheroes and 16-20 are demigods.

Part of the point of this is to explore more of particular Tiers. You might have heroes with superpowers but little experience and training, or you might have a lifelong well studied wizard who is still a natural level of power for a human.

Some simple points of conversion,

  • BAB is now equal to tier.
  • Skill ranks are capped at Tier +3, with an additional +1 for class skills from your first class.
  • Class skills do not get a +3 bonus when trained. This is intended to help keep skills from being overloaded with too many skill points and to add more room for advancement for skills.
  • The base save bonuses are 1/3 tier rounded down. At character creation, the player may pick one save (their favored save) to be 1/2 tier rounded down. If any classes gained have good saves, those saves gain a +2 (this is "if any," not "for each," and thus, never will multiple classes stack to give more than a +2 to a base save).
  • The maximum spell level castable is 1/2 tier round up. This does not apply to the modified spell level from metamagic feats and similar.
  • Damage progressions and other numbers that improve based on class or character level instead are based on tier unless otherwise stated. Spells that deal scaling damage scale based on tier.

    Advancement
    Advancement comes from spending xp, and their are choices on where to spend it.

    Each class level is purchased individually and rather than the cost being based on total number of levels, the cost of a class level uses the xp chart of the book, slow progression (to change leveling pace, instead multiply xp rewards by 2 for medium and 3 for fast), however, the level on the chart to be used will be the number of possessed levels in that class plus the number of classes (including the new one if purchasing first level in a new class). This means that it can sometimes be cheaper to buy a new class than to stick with a single one. Classes with the same feature do not stack (even if they normally would, such as uncanny dodge). Of particular note, spell slots from multiple classes are not gained separately and do not stack, use the highest number of slots from your classes. Each slot can be used by any class (i.e. a wiz/sorc can prepare a spell in one slot then cast a spontaneous spell in a slot that has not been prepared). The exception is that the divine vs arcane distinction may be maintained at the gm's discretion (thus gaining divine slots separately from arcane slots).

    Feats and skills are gained separately from from gaining class levels, though are gained in a like manner to class levels. Feats cost xp according to the fast progression xp chart with level on the chart being the feat to be bought (not including bonus feats such as from being human), thus the first feat is free and the second is the cost to get level two on the fasy progression xp chart, the third is the level three cost, etc.

    Skills are bought just like feats but according to the medium xp progression. When you buy skill points, you get 6 skill points. Your int modifier is added to the total number of skill ranks you have and is not multiplied for each time you purchased skill ranks.

    Ability score increases are also purchased, but for the cost you look for the level on the slow xp chart that equals the score to be purchased. Each point of an attribute must be bought and can't be skipped. I.E. if Sara has str 12 and wants str 14, she must buy str 13, at the cost of level 13 on the chart, then buy str 14, at the cost of level 14 on the chart.

    As some spells may be higher level due to versatility rather than raw power, the gm may allow some spells to be gained at a lower spell level, once the character has advanced far enough in their casting class (i.e. minor and major creation, illusion spells, etc), possibly gimped in some way, such a smaller area, shorter duration, or fewer targets.


  • No worries. Implementation of new rules is a complex thing. I know it will take me a while to digest what's been presented so far.

    Contributor

    Yeah. You are clearly doing a ton of work here. Don't sweat it if it takes a while. (I'm still reading them over)


    Yea! People are still here! :D

    Sometimes I started wondering as I listen to the crickets chirping. :)

    I hope to finish the injury conditions tonight. Then I'll flesh out more about tiers.


    I'm still here, too, parsing the information we've gotten so far. I'll be out of town this weekend for a wedding, but I'm still interested!


    I would like to join please. this seems like a CRPG way of character advancement
    Also character creation?
    Personally I think start at tier 6 with 6300 XP (which goes up)
    20-point buy

    Tier:
    This concept splits numerical power from versatility, allowing a game more versatility in handing the overall power of the world and it's inhabitants.
    Character's no longer have a character level, instead they have a Tier. Tier is the overall numerical power and agency of the character.

    Like normal d20, Tiers 1-5 covers the range of natural mundane humans relatable to the real world. Tiers 6-10 are supernatural powers, more powerful than a real world human could ever hope to be, but not by much and small groups of mundanes can often beat individuals of this tier if well prepared and utilize teamwork. Tiers 11-15 are basically superheroes and 16-20 are demigods.

    Part of the point of this is to explore more of particular Tiers. You might have heroes with superpowers but little experience and training, or you might have a lifelong well studied wizard who is still a natural level of power for a human.

    Some simple points of conversion,
    BAB is now equal to tier.
    Skill ranks are capped at Tier +3, with an additional +1 for class skills from your first class.
    Class skills do not get a +3 bonus when trained. This is intended to help keep skills from being overloaded with too many skill points and to add more room for advancement for skills.
    The base save bonuses are 1/3 tier rounded down. At character creation, the player may pick one save (their favored save) to be 1/2 tier rounded down. If any classes gained have good saves, those saves gain a +2 (this is "if any," not "for each," and thus, never will multiple classes stack to give more than a +2 to a base save).
    The maximum spell level castable is 1/2 tier round up. This does not apply to the modified spell level from metamagic feats and similar.
    Damage progressions and other numbers that improve based on class or character level instead are based on tier unless otherwise stated. Spells that deal scaling damage scale based on tier.

    Advancement:

    Advancement comes from spending xp, and their are choices on where to spend it.

    Each class level is purchased individually and rather than the cost being based on total number of levels, the cost of a class level uses the xp chart of the book, slow progression (to change leveling pace, instead multiply xp rewards by 2 for medium and 3 for fast), however, the level on the chart to be used will be the number of possessed levels in that class plus the number of classes (including the new one if purchasing first level in a new class). This means that it can sometimes be cheaper to buy a new class than to stick with a single one. Classes with the same feature do not stack (even if they normally would, such as uncanny dodge). Of particular note, spell slots from multiple classes are not gained separately and do not stack, use the highest number of slots from your classes. Each slot can be used by any class (i.e. a wiz/sorc can prepare a spell in one slot then cast a spontaneous spell in a slot that has not been prepared). The exception is that the divine vs arcane distinction may be maintained at the gm's discretion (thus gaining divine slots separately from arcane slots).

    Feats and skills are gained separately from from gaining class levels, though are gained in a like manner to class levels. Feats cost xp according to the fast progression xp chart with level on the chart being the feat to be bought (not including bonus feats such as from being human), thus the first feat is free and the second is the cost to get level two on the fasy progression xp chart, the third is the level three cost, etc.

    Skills are bought just like feats but according to the medium xp progression. When you buy skill points, you get 6 skill points. Your int modifier is added to the total number of skill ranks you have and is not multiplied for each time you purchased skill ranks.

    Ability score increases are also purchased, but for the cost you look for the level on the slow xp chart that equals the score to be purchased. Each point of an attribute must be bought and can't be skipped. I.E. if Sara has str 12 and wants str 14, she must buy str 13, at the cost of level 13 on the chart, then buy str 14, at the cost of level 14 on the chart.

    As some spells may be higher level due to versatility rather than raw power, the gm may allow some spells to be gained at a lower spell level, once the character has advanced far enough in their casting class (i.e. minor and major creation, illusion spells, etc), possibly gimped in some way, such a smaller area, shorter duration, or fewer targets.


    Health rules:

    +
    Amethyst Ioun Stone
    Here is everything but all the injury effects, I'll get to answering your questions momentarily.

    Health Rules v0.1:

    The idea here is that when you are hit, you roll a soak roll. A soak roll is your hit dice plus con modifier plus any applicable resistances/dr minus a penalty for previous hits called wound points. The DC for a soak roll is the damage taken from the hit.
    Regardless of the result of the soak roll, you take a number of wound points equal to the tier of the attacker. Damage from sources without a tier, such as falling into a campfire or stepping on caltrops, is tier one by default. However, these wound points are gained after the soak roll is made.

    soak >= dmg
    If the soak roll is equal or higher than the damage of the attack, nothing happens aside from gaining the wound points.

    soak < dmg
    If the soak roll is less than the damage taken, an injury is gained.

    soak < 0
    If the soak roll is less than 0, or the hit was a critical hit, a critical injury is gained, some of which may lead to death (see my note on death near the end).

    Injury gained
    Upon gaining an injury, roll a d12 to determine location. 1-2 foot, 3-4 hand, 5-6 leg, 7-8 arm, 9 groin/gut/similar, 10 chest, 11 back, 12 head. Where applicable, odd number is left and even number is right. See the location effects below.

    Critical Injury
    Anytime a critical injury is gained, roll a will save DC 15+5 per critical injury or be incapacitated/unconscious (if failed, reroll every round to become awake and disabled). Succeeding on the will save results in being disabled instead (disabled is slightly altered so that if you take strenuous action you must make a will save dc 15+5 per injury or fall unconscious. Strenuous actions cause you to become dying [dying is altered, see below]).

    Critical injuries use the same location roll, but the effects are more severe.

    Nonlethal
    The only difference with nonlethal is that disabled becomes staggered, rolling a regular injury instead gets double wound points, and critical injury effects are instead the effects of normal injuries to the same location (you still have the will save to remain conscious and other effects from getting a critical injury).

    Additionally, if all of a character's wound points were caused by nonlethal attacks, then they recover at triple the normal rate until gone or lethal damage is taken.

    Healing
    Natural healing,
    Wound points heal at a rate equal to one's con modifier per 8 hours of rest (which can be light activity such as reading, handling paperwok, having a conversation, playing lookout on a wagon of a caravan, etc), +1 if properly treated or with restful sleep, +2 if both. Halve this amount for a character suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar condition/circumstance) or handling stressful but not physically taxing activities, or if the character has a critical injury (as the body focuses on the major damage). Physically taxing situations or while suffering from sleep deprivation (or similar) recovers only 1 wound point per day.

    Ability score damage heals exactly like wound points except instead of per 8 hours it is per 48 hours instead.

    A dying character without aid must become stable first (see Dying condition). Once stable, roll a fort save every hour DC 15+5 per critical injury, to become conscious.

    A dying character with aid rolls to become conscious every half hour and with DC 15 +1 per critical injury.

    Some critical injury effects can take a long time to heal or even become permenant without magical (or technologically advanced) healing. Under the injury descriptions, those effects labeled with PR* get a roll after the encounter to see how long the injury takes to heal. Roll a d6 and a d4. The d6 is how many time periods per increment of recovery, and the d4 is how long the time increments are (1=days, 2=weeks, 3=months, 4= permenant).

    Magical healing
    Healing spells that heal hit points heal wound points instead and in their normal amounts. Such spells can also be cast to automatically stabilize a dying character, or to reduce the DC of a beneficial heal check by 5.

    Healing an injury requires a restoration spell or similar to be cast once for each time increment rolled for the injury. If the spell could replace a lost limb, it only needs to be cast once per injury. Such spells can take effect once per day (basically the spell is cast and it takes a day for the spell effect to complete).

    Death
    Unlike normal PF, the dead can be brought back to life within a number of hours equal to the dead character's charisma score by healing the critical injury that resulted in death either with
    A) powerful restoration type healing magic,
    B) making a dc 20 heal check with lesser cure-type magic healing, or
    C) making a dc 30 heal check if no magic healing is available.

    Upon doing so, the dead character is revived but unconcious.

    Naturally Targeted Attacks
    Some attacks or attackers are naturally limited in hit locations. I.E. caltrops only target the feet, sonic damage targets ears and soft organ, etc. For such attacks, just use common sense.

    Called Shots
    Called shots must be declared prior to the attack roll. A called shot uses the size modifier of the part targeted and particularly vital areas (head, neck, groin, etc) get twice the dex bonus (or half the dex penalty if negative dex modifier). If the attack results in an injury or critical injury, the location is what was declared as targeted instead of being rolled.

    For humanoids, limbs such as arms, legs, and wings, as well as the torso, are 1 size smaller than the creature. The head is 2 sizes smaller. Hands, feet, eyes, and ears are 3 sizes smaller.

    Disabled
    A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions, but he can still take swift, immediate, and free actions). He moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but performing any strenuous action, including actions like casting a quickened spell, require a will save dc 15+5 per injury to avoid falling unconscious. Strenuous actions cause you to become dying regardless of the will save, unless those actions were successful healing actions or otherwise removed the disabled condition.

    Dying
    A dying creature is disabled and near death. Creatures that became disabled and have not stabilized are dying. On the character's next turn, after becoming disabled, and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to five for each of their critical injuries. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, they take 1 point of constitution damage. If the Constitution score reaches 0, the creature dies.

    Stable
    Once a character succeeds on a stabilization check, they become stable and are no longer dying. Becoming stable does not remove the disabled condition.

    If i was a wizard 12, fighter 1, magus 3 which would I use
    1. Level 14 level up for the wizard. level 5 for magus. Level 2 for the fighter
    2. Level 14 for all of them


    TheAlicornSage wrote:

    It is mostly in how you think of it and use the rules.

    In what I call the Character Agency playstyle, you have to justify your level up choices (or rolls for that matter), such as having it established that you were studying another language in order to select that while leveling.

    Most players don't play Character Agency style though, leading to weirdness like what you pointed out about having another language for no reason other than putting a point into Linguistics.

    ###
    With three interested players, time to start getting some idea of what everyone wants to play,

    Edit: 0 - Do you want to discuss the rules in detail before answering the following?

    1 - Do you want to explore a rather unique setting, or more generic fantasy?

    2 - Do you want to try all these rules ideas or just certain ones?

    3 - Do you want to play some mildly reflavored Season 6 pathfinder scenerios, or something more sandboxish?

    4 - If going for my unique setting (which is quite expansive) what would you like to see or try? Magi-tech? Survival? Frontier Exploration? Floating islands amongst an endless sea of air? Unlimited dungeon delving?

    0- Happy to discuss later

    1-Unique
    2- All of them
    3-Sandbox
    4-Survival I have always wanted to play a live with what you get game


    How does curing deadly wounds work?


    The Injury Effects,

    Spoiler:

    Arm,
    Note, use this entry for wings, plus the following effect, If a wing is injured, the creature can not fly with out magic though may glide with a DC 18 Fly check. If critically injured wing, can not fly without magic and may only fall as if affected by feather fall (without duration limit) as long as one good wing remains.
    --Injury; -2 on any check using the arm. If the same arm gets hit twice, the penalty becomes -6. If the same arm gets hit a third time, it counts as three injuries but use the penalties of a critical injury.
    --Critical Injury; the arm is limp and useless (unless the attack was a slashing weapon in which case the arm is severed). Take 1d4 strength damage, and a -6 penalty to dex (won't reduce dex below 1). The dex penalty is reduced by to -3 if the arm is put in a loose sling, or -2 if put in a tight sling. The dex penalty applies only to large body movements, such as acrobatics and balance.

    Chest/Back
    --Injury; 1d4 constitution damage. Become stunned till a will save DC 15 is passed (rolled at the start of every turn). Multiple hits to the chest or back stack. Become fatigued, or if already fatigued, become exhausted.
    --Critical Injury; Roll a d2, 1(evens) use Vitals Critical Injury effects, else use the Heart/Organs Critical Injury effects.

    Ears
    --Injury; PR* Take a -4 penalty to any perception checks based on hearing. Staggered until pass a fort save DC 15 (rolled at beginning of turn), or until tended.
    --Critical Injury; PR* Become deafened. Unless magically healed with restoration, take a permanent -2 to checks involving hearing.

    Eye
    --Injury; Totally blinded for 1 round, afterwards everything has 20% concealment for 1d4 rounds, and creature takes -4 to visual perception checks fot 2d10 hours, unless all eyes have been blinded, in which case the creature is blind instead. If target has multiple eyes close together (like humamoids or spiders), roll a d20, on a 3(+1 for each eye beyond two) or less, two eyes get injured.
    --Critical Injury; PR* Take -4 to visual perception checks. At end of fight, roll a d6 (for each injured eye), on a 5 or 6, the eye is damaged but not totally blind, and thus the penalty is reduced to -2 after 24 hours.

    Hand
    --Injury; Drop anything held in hand, for two handed items, roll reflex DC 13 to avoid dropping it. PR* -2 to actions that use the injured hand or that use two hands.
    --Critical Injury; If slashing damage, hand is severed, take -6 to checks requiring it's use (like climbing), else, PR* the injured hand is nearly unusable. Take -4 to checks requiring two hands. For creatures with more than two hands, -2 on checks that would normally use all hands.

    Head
    --Injury; Creature is sickened until they pass a dc 15 fort save. Roll a d6, on a 1 gain an eye injury, on a 2 gain an ear injury, on a 3 or 4 hit to the mouth, can't speak intelligibly for 2d6 minutes, on a 5 or 6 take 1d4 damage to each mental ability score.
    --Critical Injury; Creature sickened for 2d6 hours. Gain Disabled condition. Roll d6, 1 critical injury eye, 2 critical injury ear, 3 to 4 jaw broken, 5 to 6 take 1d8 damage to each ability score. If the attack roll was a 18-20, gain dying. If slashing damage and attack roll was 20, instead of other effects the character is decapitated.

    Heart/Organs
    Is used for organs protected by bone (like ribs), but is vital for the creature to survive.
    --Injury; Take 2d6 points of con damage. If piercing damage, increase the con damage to 4d6. PR* Gain Exausted.
    --Critical Injury; Take 2d10 con damage, PR* gain Exhausted. If piercing, con damage is 4d10.

    Leg
    Legs are limbs that are used for moving around.
    --Injury; Reduce speed by 1/3 if the creature still has an uninjured leg (does not affect crawl speed), or 1/2 if no uninjured legs, and takes a -4 to any check using their legs. For creatures with more than 4 unijured legs, speed is not reduced but instead take a -2 penalty on checks using their legs (such as climb or swim).
    --Critical Injury; Leg is useless (or severed if slashing damage) and take a -8 on checks using their legs. Biped creatures must hop to move (Acrobatics DC 12), take -8 to avoid being tripped, and have speed reduced to 5' and can not take a 5' step, though they may crawl while prone at half their normal speed (may be modified by any feats that affect their crawl speed, though my never exceed their normal speed -5'). Creatures with more than 2 legs, reduce speed to half if less than 4 uninjured legs, or use the biped results if less than 2 remaining usable legs. If a leg is severed, also take 1 con damage plus 1 every round, this damage can be halted with a heal check DC 15, or a cure spell which has no other effect.

    Vitals
    Represents guts, liver, or other other vitals that aren't protected by bone and often lead to deteriorating condition unless treated. A shot to the liver or intestines is nearly always fatal, if a slow death, even the real world today.
    --Injury; Creature is Nauseated for 1d6 rounds and sickened for 1d4 minutes, and take 1 con damage. If slashing or piercing damage, creature makes a fort save each round DC 15 to avoid taking another 1 con damage. The ongoing con damage can be prevented by a heal check DC 25, or a restoration magic.
    --Critical Injury; Creature is nauseated for 1d4 minutes and sickened for 1d6 times 10 minutes, takes 1 con damage. Creature takes 1 con damage every round. The ongoing con damage can be prevented by a heal check DC 35, or a restoration magic.


    Welcome Ancient Dragon Master!

    To answer some things,

    Quote:
    If i was a wizard 12, fighter 1, magus 3 which would I use

    Truthfully it would depend somewhat on the order in which you purchased the levels, but let us say you went all wizard, then a level of magus, then fighter, then the other levels of magus.

    So buying 12 levels of wizard would cost 330,000 xp.

    Then buying a level of magus would cost 3,000 xp (two classes plus 0 levels in magus).

    Then a level of fighter as the third class would cost 7,500 xp (three classes, plus 0 levels in fighter).

    Then second level of magus would be 14,000xp which includes the 3,000 xp already spent on magus, (cause you have 3 classes at this point, plus a level in magus already), with the third magus level costing 23,000 xp including the 14,000 xp already spent on magus.

    If you purchased the magus and fighter levels first, then bought 12 levels of wizard, the wizard levels alone would cost 955,000 xp.

    It isn't perfect yet, but I wanted it to be more expensive to get a larger number of classes (so as to avoid players buying one level of every class), yet remain cheaper to have a few classes at lower levels than to have one class at high level. I haven't yet figured out how to maintain that while making the costs the same regardless of the order in which the levels are purchased. Then again, it is all about the journey, so I'm not overly concerned about this aspect. Just need to have players give me the order in which class levels are purchased if character creation includes that possibility.

    ###
    As for character creation, that will come later, as it might change depending on everyone's feedback about the rules. I am however thinking of starting around tier 3, to remain in the gritty tier yet still leave some room for improving tier.


    Healing is primarily about healing effects. Some injuries have longterm or permanent effects, such as losing a limb or Exhausted.

    Using one of the restoration spells can have their normal effects, such as healing ability damage, normal fatigue/exhausted (as in not from an injury), dispelling magical effects, etc. This use still takes a day for the healed effects to completely disappear, though the casting time is unaffected by these rules changes.

    Additionally, some injuries have effects that roll for how long they last. They roll for a number of time increments, and how long each time increment is. To use a lesser restoration to heal these effects, you would need to cast a restoration spell a number of times equal to the number of time increments the injury rolled, but casting multiple restoration spells would take one day for each casting. A spell, such as regeneration, that can replace lost limbs, need only be cast a single time to heal all the effects of a single injury.

    Adding to what I've posted previously, Restoration (not lesser, nor greater) can heal two time increments in a single casting (still takes a day for the spell to complete it's work [casting time remains the same]).

    Greater Restoration can heal four time increments in a single casting (still takes a day for the spell to complete it's work [casting time remains the same]).

    Example, a character takes a critical injury to an eye. They roll the PR* roll, and find they have 4 time increments of 2 months. A lesser Restoration spell would need to be cast four times on separate days to completely heal the eye.


    So (classes) + (Levels in class you are taking levels in)= Level looked at to determine XP cost.
    ####
    I'm not sure you answered my question. How does Treating deadly wounds work (Heal skilll)

    Contributor

    What about just having the order you gain classes 'lock in' the cost? So to follow the previous example, if you got Wizard first, then every wizard class you get would cost the normal amount of XP. Then when you went Magus, every Magus level would be that level+1. Then every fighter level would be that level+2. That way if you were to go Wizard 3->Magus 1->Fighter 1->Wizard 4, the fourth level of wizard wouldn't be more expensive because you multiclassed.


    It is a trade off really.

    Going your route, you need to track specifically what classes are in what order for the life of the character.

    Going as I suggested, you only need to know the order of purchasing classes during character creation, and even then, only if starting with more than one level.

    Additionally, your suggestion favors specializing in earlier bought classes even late in a character's career, vs my proposal which favors choosing whether to specialize or not, early in the character's career but doesn't favor any particular class choice late in the character's career, which allows character shifting their build focus due to story events (which has happened plenty of times) without penalty where-as your suggestion would favor improving earlier chosen classes even late in the game when the player might be focusing more on a later chosen class' abilities.

    So it is a case of picking where you want the benefits.

    So what benefits were you thinking of when you made your suggestion?


    For healing deadly wounds, the normal use of healing hit points doesn't apply. However, the heal skill can be used to treat injuries. For the most part, it is mostly healing ability score damage or explicitly stated though (such as under the vitals entry) and those latter uses can be thought of as treating deadly wounds.


    @ Michelle,

    I realized a little late that I didn't mention any of the benefits of your suggestion, such as being cheaper on total xp in the long run, and I don't mean to imply anything negative about your suggestion (in fact as a proposition, I'm more than open to changing things),but those benefits do exist. At the moment though, I'm more curious about what benefits you were thinking of.

    Contributor

    I was just thinking that it would encourage more gradual branching out, vs starting off with several different classes. Even using my suggestion, buying your first level in a 5th class would be cheaper than buying a 10th level in your first class (for example). But mainly, I'm just thinking of situations where a player might go "Well, I would like to add another class to my build, but then it would make my next Wizard level cost 10,000,000 XP. Might as well just stick to what I have."

    It does highly favor whichever classes you go into first though, which might be a drawback for certain people/builds.


    Oh, so it happens that I'm in one of those periods of time when I actively search for nice and good games...

    I've read the first posts of the thread and I'm quite curious about this. Would you all mind if I joined?

    While I read the rest of the posts, let me answer your questions:

    1 - Do you want to explore a rather unique setting, or more generic fantasy?
    I'd rather play something unique.

    2 - Do you want to try all these rules ideas or just certain ones?
    Let's try! I guess, anyway, that with 6 players there'sll be spreading enough to touch most of the new rules.

    3 - Do you want to play some mildly reflavored Season 6 pathfinder scenerios, or something more sandboxish?
    I don't play PFS, so I don't know.

    4 - If going for my unique setting (which is quite expansive) what would you like to see or try? Magi-tech? Survival? Frontier Exploration? Floating islands amongst an endless sea of air? Unlimited dungeon delving?
    Always loved Iron Kingdoms style, but I'm up for anything, be it historical flavour or even more special (Exalted, anyone?).


    Hey, letting everyone know that wed-fri this week and the next couple of weeks are too busy for me to post. I got sideswiped with it this week unexpectedly. The other days will be fine and I'll still post then, but it is slowing me down a bit. 20 hour days of more active work than usual with 4 hours rest in between is not fun.

    Welcome Jereru. :)


    TheAlicornSage wrote:

    Hey, letting everyone know that wed-fri this week and the next couple of weeks are too busy for me to post. I got sideswiped with it this week unexpectedly. The other days will be fine and I'll still post then, but it is slowing me down a bit. 20 hour days of more active work than usual with 4 hours rest in between is not fun.

    Welcome Jereru. :)

    That's ok we all understand


    Wow,
    I've been writing this since 21:00 and am still not finished. Hopefully I'll be done tomorrow.
    Let me know what you think so far.

    Spoiler:

    Divine vs arcane vs others.

    Divine magic is powered by the faith the caster has that their spell will work. This doesn't mean the caster realizes this, and clergy in many places believe their magic comes from gods (or other beings). But it is something for players to note, that if a divine caster has their faith shaken, their ability to cast will be affected. This is dependent on the player though since the player determines the shakiness of their character's faith. Divine magic can also be from a caster that has faith in the magic itself, or faith in something else related (I.E. perhaps they think a particular staff is required for them to do magic.).

    Arcane is powered through force of will, whether scientifically studied or not, and can fail if the caster has trouble focusing or thinking straight.

    Witchcraft (unrelated to the class) is powered by having a relationship with magic, with the caster more coaxing the effect to occur, and is particularly well suited to affecting and thus using magic from other things and thus are the premier potion-makers (using the magic in their ingredients to produce the effect) as well as the go to bad magic superstitions. In some places stories are told of witchcraft granting great power, or removing a character's power completely. Just stories, most likely. Tends to have options for power, at the cost of hurting nearby things, but is harder to control and shape.

    Psychic is just a variant set of techniques and traditions but are still arcane as they impose will to produce effects.

    In any case, the type of magic one has doesn't matter except during casting. Once a spell is cast, whether the caster used divine or arcane or witchcraft is indistinguishable (save for witchcraft spells that continually feed on a source of magic, which can only be done with witchcraft).

    Classes are not limited to the particular type listed in the base rules (base rules means in the official rule books). Thus you might have a cleric using witchcraft, or a wizard using divine magic, though such cases are not common (though druids most often use witchcraft).

    How type affects casting is discussed in how to cast spells.

    Spell slots
    A character gains a number of slots (of each level) equal to twice the number they'd have as a spontaneous caster. (sorcerer progression for full casters, and bard progression for medium casters) For low casting prepared casters, they get 3 times the number of slots. All slots are gained, even slots to high to normally use (they can be used for lower level spells as well as metamagiced spells). The highest castable spell level is set by tier, but higher level slots are still gained and usable for lower level spells and metamagiced spells.

    Prepared vs spontaneous
    All casters can cast spontaneous or prepared castings, or rotecasting.

    Spontaneous spells use up 2 spell slots of the right level, while prepared spells use 3.

    Prepared spells are easier to cast but most choices are set at time of preparation, while spontaneous spells are harder but can be customized precisely to the circumstances.

    Rotecasting is casting straight out of a book. It takes 4 slots and the casting time is a 1 round action minimum. It is also more difficult. The main advantage of this is the ability to cast a spell one does not have memorized/prepared. One must still decipher a spell to use this option (as per the normal rules of deciphering a spell to prepared/copy it).

    Casting a spell
    Casting a spell requires a spellcraft check of the appropriate school/type.

    The DC for casting a spell is 5 + 5 per spell level. Prepared spells get a +2 on the check. Rotecasting gets -2 (trying to maintain the casting of a spell while reading through text is is not easy).

    If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If prepared, the preparation ends and is no longer prepared. The slots remain available for casting again however.

    If the check fails, the highest level of spell slots available become unavailable for use in addition to the spell fizzling. If this makes first level spells unavailable, gain the fatigued condition. If cantrips become unavailable, gain exhausted.

    If the check fails by 5 or more, the spell misfires, having an appropriately incorrect effect. If cast while out of combat or while taking 10/20, the caster can attempt a will save, DC 15 plus twice the spell level, to direct the effect away from allies/important/explosive things.

    An unavailable level of spell slots becomes available again after 4 hours per spell level after the previous level becomes available.

    Divine casting requires somatic and verbal components.

    Arcane casting requires the emotion and thought components even if not of the psychic variety.

    Witchcraft requires a Power check (d20 plus cha plus 1 per highest spell level available). If this check fails, the spell fizzles out doing nothing, not even a mishap. The DC is 10 + 3 per spell level. The caster can boost the power of a spell for +3 to the DC of the spell per improvement rank. Doing this takes power from living things that are being touched. Creatures and powerful plants can make a DC 10 + the caster's cha mod and the spell improvement rank, will save to prevent this power drain (thus denying the benefit to the witch). If the living thing fails this save or doesn't get one, it becomes fatigued, or exhausted if more than 3 ranks are sucked. If 6 ranks are sucked, they become unconscious, and if 9 ranks are sucked, they must pass a fort save (of the same DC) or die.

    Spellcraft
    Spellcraft as a skill is split into subskills like knowledge and profession.

    The subskills are each school, racial SLAs/SUs as one.

    Metamagic
    Metamagic increases the casting DC, but not the casting time. If applied to a prepared spell, must be applied at time of preparation, and can't be applied later.

    Using a metamagic feat increases the DC to cast by twice the spell level modification (and doesn't change the spell level, except heighten spell and Powerful Spell defined below)

    Powerful spell
    +6 DC (+3 spell levels)
    Use a higher level spell slot to cast. For each higher level, improve one of the following aspects of the spell,
    *double target area
    *double range
    *increase damage dice by one size (+2 to the number of sides)
    *add two additional damage dice
    General Magic Alterations
    These are due to the setting rather than the magic rules, but here seems like a good spot as a related topic.

    Calling spells can only bring a creature/object that was previously marked as a focus for the spell by the caster. They also suffer the limits of teleport spells (as these are basically teleport spells in reverse). Such a mark lasts a year.

    Summoning spells don't exist. A similar effect can be achieved by crafting artificial spirits called Sprites, then conjuring a temporary body for them to control. Crafting sprites is like crafting a magical item. A sprite is permanent unless killed.

    Healing is part of the necromancy school.

    Teleportation is it's own school. (with calling spells as a subschool)

    Enchantments can't take control of a person, though they can affect emotions or alter perceptions (I.E. phantasms, which count as enchantments rather than illusions).


    So if the witch kills a living being they gain a +27 to the DC? And no other penalty?

    Scenario:

    Little old lady:Get off my farm or I'll set my rabbit on you
    Brigands:start laughing
    Little old lady: *Kills rabbit and casts appropriate L.2 combat spell*
    Brigands: Dead


    You do need a high enough spell slot. Also, you better hope no finds out what you are doing. I will send assassins, bounty hunters, and even armies if it makes sense for the people of the world to do so.

    Lesser life forms also likely don't have enough power, but I haven't figured out a mechanical representation for that.

    Also, rooling that power check doesn't gain as many bonuses as even skills, so not likely to succeed unless you get very lucky or get pretty high in tier.


    So it's just a straight plus to DC of the spell and power check

    Not being able to kill lesser life forms is a good idea. What about minimum 2 HD for improvement ranks +1 HD means +1 improvement rank (damage stacks) for a mechanical representation.

    Who's going to kill a witch who kills Flowers occasionally for a boost to spells?


    Armies can be killed with less losses than assassins or bounty hunters if they do not take several precautions


    Fair warning, I don't believe in non-magical soldiers, even in more generic settings. And an army worth it's salt will be able to handle hunting down wayward murderers. }:)

    Of course, not all armies are worth their salt, but either way, it may take them a while to decide to get involved and longer to realize a squad of grunts isn't enough and to call in the big boys.

    If you survive that long though, and continue to cause problems for the people of a nation, eventually artillery and even the fleet will be called in, and don't forget, tier is staying low, so even high skill has it's limits, and equally skilled commanders often find themselves in military service. Muahahaha!

    On a more serious note though, I treat the world as a character. The world responds appropriately to players. I don't do that "The Gamers: Dorkness Rising" nonsense of letting players murder, maim, and impregnate everyone, in the king's throneroom no less, without the people of the world responding. The world just won't ignore stuff because it is PCs who do it. After all, the world has no distinction between PCs and everyone else.

    I'll continue work on it tonight/today.

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