Reach Slayer Build


Advice


Hey, new to using the boards here, but have been playing and GMing for about a year.

I'm about to start a new campaign, and I'm working on a different character design than what I've seen. I've been wanting to play a slayer for a while, but I want to use a reach weapon. There isn't a great Ranger combat style for that (closest is probably 2 handed) and I'm unfamiliar with most of the reach-related feats.
Ignoring mechanics, I'd like to play an elf or half elf.

My main question is what feats and slayer talents would you pick? I'm more concerned with keeping pace with the rest of the party having interesting options than maximum optimization.


Half elves make FANTASTIC slayers. Mostly because they have that one alternate racial trait that gives them +2 to will saves (your one bad save). Combined with elven immunities for another +2 vs enchantments, and you can mostly forget the 'make you kill your friends' saves for a while.

So, yeah- two handed is a good style for reach. A summary of reach feats:

Combat reflexes and power attack (you can grab both by level 2 with the 2 handed style). The very basic. Hit hard (so that enemies fear your AoOs), and get more AoOs so you aren't tied up by a single kobold. These are the 'must haves' for anyone claiming a reach build- at least with spears and polearms.

Lunge and Pushing assault (the latter of which is also in 2 handed style). These are positioning feats. There is a sweet spot for reach as a medium/small creature- 15' away. That is where an enemy has to start from if you want an AoO- any closer than that, and they can just 5' step (also, they can full attack, since they only did a 5' step). The problem is that, if you attack first, your enemy ends up 10' away- thus, you either waste time waiting for them to come first, or you abandon your AoO. Thus lunge- you can full attack from your sweet spot. Also, lunge lets you full attack anything up to 20' away (10'+5'step+5'lunge). That basically lets you attack everything once the sides attack eachother- a nice replacement for pounce.

Pushing assault has a similar role- it lets you push back a creature 5' by trading in power attack damage. Thus, even if the enemy ends up right next to you, you can just 5' step back, push them back 5', and they are back in the sweet spot. Done well, and you can kite an enemy, forcing them to take full move actions to reach you (thus, they can't full attack), and you keep on getting AoOs. Obviously, your GM will want to avoid this... but forcing the enemies to waste their time trying to run around you is an achievement, since that is time not spent killing your wizard. Warning- pushing assault only works on creatures up to your size. But hey- humans are a major enemy type most of the time.

Finally- trip, and other maneuver stuff. This can allow you to make your AoOs provide additional disadvantages to your enemies (trip them with your AoO, making them waste time getting up and draw an AoO). This can allow you to further shut down enemies that try to get past you. This can be a bit unreliable though- things get more trip proof at later levels. When it works, it is fantastic.

Last note- the fortuitous enhancement for weapons. A +1, that lets you get a second AoO for the same action. It is 1/round, and BAB-5.... basically, the first enemy that crosses you gets a mini full attack. which enemy is brave (foolish) enough to be that first one?


arent there combat styles that allow dirty tricks for free?

the rogue talent that allow no AOO from a foe is amzaing for you, as you attack, and move back.

skill focus acrobatics isnt half bad

Sovereign Court

Reach weapons need surprisingly few feats. The ones you absolutely must not miss are Combat Reflexes and Phalanx Formation.

Since reach weapons are mostly 2H you of course get good mileage from Power Attack/Furious Focus as well.

Vital Strike can be a decent feat as well, since reach weapons usually have good base damage dice. A lot of people hate on it, but they tend to compare it to full attacks. That's not what it's for. Vital Strike is for when you would only get a standard action attack anyway, because:
- It's a surprise round.
- You have to move to close in on the enemy. Either at the beginning of the combat or because your previous opponent is down, so now you're needed elsewhere on the battlefield.
- You had to draw a weapon as a Move action.

Those things happen quite often.

What also works well with 2H weapons is thrown weapons. If you can't get close enough to enemies this round, you can draw a javelin while moving and throw it; then regrip your polearm with both hands. Since Combat Reflexes rewards Dexterity, you'll probably have an acceptably high ranged to-hit.


Combat Reflexes gives additional AoO per dex bonus, but having a high dexterity isn't really necessary. You just aren't very likely to get more than 2 AoOs in a single round. I'm not saying there won't be rounds where you could take a lot of AoO, but those times are usually exceedingly rare and hardly worth worrying about building towards.

Sovereign Court

Dex 14 is sufficient to make Combat Reflexes work well. Maybe boost that to 16 if you're using magic to grow Large (like with a potion of enlarge person, 50gp).


If you dip Hungry Ghost Monk or wait qualify normally, Punishing Kick might be worth looking in to.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Dex 14 is sufficient to make Combat Reflexes work well. Maybe boost that to 16 if you're using magic to grow Large (like with a potion of enlarge person, 50gp).

Enlarge person doesn't change how combat reflexes works.

Enlarge person gives a -2 dex penalty.

ability penalty works like ability damage

ability damage says every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability

"Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."

So your dex is never actually reduced by enlarge person, so you still have a 14 dex giving +2 AoOs for a total of 3 a round.

Now if the suggestion was that enlarged wants 4 AoOs instead of 3 then this isn't applicable.


Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.


FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.

And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.


Chess Pwn wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.
And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.

Technically true, but not the intent and don't be surprised if your DM throws his book at you. The half-elf does have an option to get proficiency with an exotic weapon though.

Personally, if I were going to go dex-based with a slayer, I'd rather just go with an unchained rogue, or at least take a 3 to 4 level dip of rogue.


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.
And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.

Technically true, but not the intent and don't be surprised if your DM throws his book at you. The half-elf does have an option to get proficiency with an exotic weapon though.

Personally, if I were going to go dex-based with a slayer, I'd rather just go with an unchained rogue, or at least take a 3 to 4 level dip of rogue.

Do you have a source saying it's not the intent?


Chess Pwn listed the general rule.

How many extra AOOs you get our of Combat Reflexes is the specific feat you want to analyse.

Going along this kind of thoughtline a DEX-booster would not actually raise the number of AOOs...

Specific effects overwrite general, thus, yes, your number of Extra-AOOs goes down when your DEX-mod goes down, and up with it likewise.

The feats "check" what your current stats are when you want to use them. Like when your STR falls under 13, and you cant use Power Attack any more.


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Chess Pwn listed the general rule.

How many extra AOOs you get our of Combat Reflexes is the specific feat you want to analyse.

Going along this kind of thoughtline a DEX-booster would not actually raise the number of AOOs...

Specific effects overwrite general, thus, yes, your number of Extra-AOOs goes down when your DEX-mod goes down, and up with it likewise.

The feats "check" what your current stats are when you want to use them. Like when your STR falls under 13, and you cant use Power Attack any more.

But a penalty doesn't change your stats, so it's always a 14 with a -2 penalty. The -2 penalty just reduces the stuff it says it reduces by 1.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.
And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.

Technically true, but not the intent and don't be surprised if your DM throws his book at you. The half-elf does have an option to get proficiency with an exotic weapon though.

Personally, if I were going to go dex-based with a slayer, I'd rather just go with an unchained rogue, or at least take a 3 to 4 level dip of rogue.

Do you have a source saying it's not the intent?

I've read a quote to that effect before, but I don't care to look for it. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from that Owen guy.


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.
And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.

Technically true, but not the intent and don't be surprised if your DM throws his book at you. The half-elf does have an option to get proficiency with an exotic weapon though.

Personally, if I were going to go dex-based with a slayer, I'd rather just go with an unchained rogue, or at least take a 3 to 4 level dip of rogue.

Do you have a source saying it's not the intent?
I've read a quote to that effect before, but I don't care to look for it. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from that Owen guy.

Thanks! That's a start for me to find it if/when I need to.


It would need to be more than a forum post to override the CRB and APG FAQs that both state they count as full members of the race full all the stuff and so on. Since the item itself says elves treat it as martial, rather than relying on normal elf weapon familiarity, half-elves get proficiency.


plaidwandering wrote:
It would need to be more than a forum post to override the CRB and APG FAQs that both state they count as full members of the race full all the stuff and so on. Since the item itself says elves treat it as martial, rather than relying on normal elf weapon familiarity, half-elves get proficiency.

Right, RAW is set, but sometimes in home games it's fun to go by RAI rather than RAW. But we only know if RAI is different from RAW if there's a sources somewhere.

Dark Archive

There was a post a while back about getting a slayer-mesmerist build going that I thought was a little different. What I put together was:

1 - Mesmerist (Enigma) / Slayer X

Half-Elf

Take +2/+2 CHA racial trait

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 12

Feats:
1 - Blind-Fight
2C - Combat Expertise (Underhanded Ranger Style)
3 - Moonlight Stalker
5 - Combat Trick (Phalanx Formation), Combat Reflexes
7 - Accomplished Sneak Attacker or Power Attack

The Underhanded Ranger Style lets you avoid INT pre-reqs for Combat Expertise. The Mesmerist Stare from the Enigma Archetype allows you to gain concealment reliably and get off at least 1 SA a turn (use the swift after your actions to gain concealment and then invisibility at the beginning of your next turn vs. one target). Going half elf gives you the Elven Branched Spear with a nice +2 on AoOs.

If you aren't dead set on reach you can go:

Race
1 - Human

Racial Trait
1 - Draconic Heritage (for the lowlight vision)

Diety
1 - Sarenrae

Stats (at Level 1)
STR 13
DEX 18 (16 + 2 Racial)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 12

Traits
1 - Dead-Eye Bowman (makes you a decent switch hitter)
2 - Blade of Mercy (goes with enforcer for free intimidates)

Feats/Talents
1 - Blind-Fight
1R - Weapon Finesse
2C - Combat Expertise (Underhanded Ranger Style)
3 - Moonlight Stalker
5 - Dervish Dance
5C - combat trick(Enforcer or Accomplished Sneak Attacker or Power Attack)
7 - Enforcer or Accomplished Sneak Attacker or Power Attack
7C - Trapfinding or Weapon Training (i.e., Weapon Focus)

Sovereign Court

plaidwandering wrote:
It would need to be more than a forum post to override the CRB and APG FAQs that both state they count as full members of the race full all the stuff and so on. Since the item itself says elves treat it as martial, rather than relying on normal elf weapon familiarity, half-elves get proficiency.

In the case of CRB in particular, you need to be alert for things being referenced in multiple places as reminders, not as actual rules. For example:

Bluff Skill Description wrote:
Special: A spellcaster with a viper familiar gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks.
Familiar/Special ability table wrote:
Viper Master gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks

A wizard with a Viper familiar doesn't gain a +6 bonus to bluff because it's listed in two places. The rule is in the familiar section, the helpful reminder is in the bluff skill.

It's the same with racial weapons: the rule is in the race, the helpful reminder is in the weapon description.

So no, half-elves don't consider curve-blades martial, unless they take

Inner Sea Races, p. 212 wrote:
Half-elves raised among elves often feel pitied and mistrusted by their longer-lived kin, and yet they receive training in elf weapons. They gain the elf ’s weapon familiarity trait. This racial trait replaces adaptability.


Elven curved blade is not the same as elven branched spear, does not have the same text, so no half-elves are not treating it as martial automatically

This is not stating the same thing twice as the bluff entry. It's a specific item in a separate book.

An elf who traded out weapon familiarity would clearly get to treat the elven branched spear as a martial weapon

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A half-elf can get Exotic Weapon proficiency in Fauchard, which is a reach weapon with an 18-20/x2 crit range, (15-20 when keen), which synergizes well with the Pushing Assault feat (push back 10 feet on a crit). I think it can also be used for tripping and other fun combat maneuvers at reach.

I also like the Stand Still feat. I think the Dirty Tricks feat lets you get Improved Trip, etc., without needing Int 13+ and Combat Expertise.

Also, use spiked gauntlets! Or spiked armor, a cestus, etc., for close combat. Javelins are fun emergency weapons too.

I don't know if a bunch of levels in bloodrager, magus, Growth domain cleric or inquisitor, etc., is worth getting enlarge person.

Your main role will probably be battlefield control, so anything that helps increase your space and reach will help.

EDIT:

Can slayers get the rogue talent Major Magic for enlarge person?

Scarab Sages

There are two different directions you can go. One is the more obvious way everyone is proposing, and try to generate more AoOs. Pushing Assault is good for that. For my whip using Warpriest, since I won't have Power Attack, I'm going for Difficult Swings. It's a Weapon Mastery feat that makes all of the squares adjacent to you difficult terrain whenever you full attack, but only for your enemies. So whenever you're fighting someone that doesn't have reach, and you full attack from reach, they can't 5-foot step up to you. As a Slayer you'll have to take Marial Focus to qualify, and both that and Difficult Awings require BAB +5, so the earliest a single classed half-elf Slayer could get it is likely 7th.

The other, less obvious direction to go, is to not focus on AoOs, but instead focus on maximizing sneak attacks. For my Half-elf Unchained Rogue that uses an Elven Branched Spear, I went this direction. I can still get the regular AoO, I just won''t bother with Combat Reflexes until I can pick up Opportunist at Rogue 10th. Instead, I went for Power Attack, Gang Up (and Combat Expertise as a prereq), and Phalanx Formation. I took a dip into Snakebite Brawler for other reasons (BAB for Power Attack at 1st, Imp Unarmed Strike, Brawler's Cunning to avoid 13 INT, extra d6 Sneak), but as a full-BAB class, Slayer won't need to do that as long as you're ok having a 13 INT. With those three feats, I'm considered flanking anytime 2 allies are adjacent to a creature, and allies don't provide soft cover, so I can stay on the second line, attack over my allies without penalties, and still get sneak attacks.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Another thing to consider is that there are a lot of Full BAB classes you can dip into to get bonus feats: Brawler, Fighter, UnMonk, to a lesser extent Cavalier, Ranger, Swashbuckler.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Elven branch spear is a finesse-able reach weapon if you do want to go full dex based. Elves treat it as a martial weapon and half-elves have an alternate race trait that gives them exotic weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.
And half-elves are elves so it also is martial for them.

Technically true, but not the intent and don't be surprised if your DM throws his book at you. The half-elf does have an option to get proficiency with an exotic weapon though.

Personally, if I were going to go dex-based with a slayer, I'd rather just go with an unchained rogue, or at least take a 3 to 4 level dip of rogue.

Do you have a source saying it's not the intent?
I've read a quote to that effect before, but I don't care to look for it. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from that Owen guy.
Thanks! That's a start for me to find it if/when I need to.

Here is the author stating that the text is only meant to be a reminder that Elves with Weapon Familiarity treat weapons with 'Elven' in the name as martial weapons. The intent is not to let those without the Elven Weapon Familiarity Racial Trait count them as martial.

It doesn't really matter now since Half-elves can trade Adaptability for the Weapon Familiarity Alternate Racial Trait (Inner Sea Races) that gives them the Elven Weapon Familiarity Racial Trait. If you have proficiency with all martial weapons this is a better choice than Ancestral Arms since it would also make you proficient with the Elven Curve Blade.


Well, I guess I was wrong. It wasn't an Owen quote. I'm not really familiar with David. Can anyone chime in with other things he's written?

Edit: Seems he was helpful enough to include that info on his profile. Link

I have been enjoying Giant Slayer so far. It's brutal though.


Then he wrote it wrong or it got edited to not quite say what he submitted, because right now it has nothing to do with weapon familiarity.

When you write something that has a game meaning, then that's what people are going to read and know about in the vast majority of cases. His post would be especially hard for a random person to know about since he's only got a contributor tag.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

His wording could have been better, but it should have been pretty clear to anyone who's read elven weapon familiarity what he meant.

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