Promethean Disciple question (Yes I know this is a can of worms but just read it)

[Alchemist 23]

If I have Promethean Disciple do I have to use it to use my Craft Construct feat? The Discovery specifically states it gives me Craft Constructs without having to meet any of the requirements, so the feat is now on your charier sheet. Can I use the feat by its self to create an construct without having a caster level (at the +5) using another craft skill? Doing this would also add the +5 for each spell on its construction requirement since you would not be able to use your extracts to substitute spells.

My only argument that you can do this comes from the fact that Homunculi are one of the two staple Constructs for Alchemy and they are not made with a craft alchemy check, only improved with one.Furthermore if you say that you can't use craft construct separately as a stand alone feat then you would not be able to use it along with CLs of other classes.

[John Murdock]

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

[Alchemist 23]

John Murdock wrote:

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

Okay maybe I didn't make my self clear. My question is can I use craft Sculpture to craft a Homunculi using the craft construct feat in full knowledge that I will take a +5 for not having a caster level.

[John Murdock]

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

Okay maybe I didn't make my self clear. My question is can I use craft Sculpture to craft a Homunculi using the craft construct feat in full knowledge that I will take a +5 for not having a caster level.

no you must use craft alchemy for creating the humonculus as per the discovery say

edit: normally you cannot take a craft that is not relevant to creating something, it must be the spellcraft skill or the relevant craft or profession you cannot use another one with a +5 to the DC

[Alchemist 23]

John Murdock wrote:

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

Okay maybe I didn't make my self clear. My question is can I use craft Sculpture to craft a Homunculi using the craft construct feat in full knowledge that I will take a +5 for not having a caster level.

no you must use craft alchemy for creating the humonculus as per the discovery say

edit: normally you cannot take a craft that is not relevant to creating something, it must be the spellcraft skill or the relevant craft or profession you cannot use another one with a +5 to the DC

So your telling me it supersedes the crafting requirement of Craft Leather or Craft Sculpture listed in the homunculus crafting section? Because I have another thread on Master Craftsmen full of angry people who will argue you must use the listed skill if it has one.

[John Murdock]

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

Okay maybe I didn't make my self clear. My question is can I use craft Sculpture to craft a Homunculi using the craft construct feat in full knowledge that I will take a +5 for not having a caster level.

no you must use craft alchemy for creating the humonculus as per the discovery say

edit: normally you cannot take a craft that is not relevant to creating something, it must be the spellcraft skill or the relevant craft or profession you cannot use another one with a +5 to the DC

So your telling me it supersedes the crafting requirement of Craft Leather or Craft Sculpture listed in the homunculus crafting section? Because I have another thread on Master Craftsmen full of angry people who will argue you must use the listed skill if it has one.

master craftsman do not let you use the skill for crafting something, it let you use the profession or craft chosen by the feat as your caster level (and you have +2 to that skill) and you meet the prerequisite for taking craft magic arms and armour and wondrous item but you still need the relevant feat since it do not say you can use the chosen skill to craft any magic weapon, armour or wondrous item, but when you craft a magical item with that feat you must use the chosen skill, the discovery say you must use that skill and that skill also count for you caster level

[Alchemist 23]

John Murdock wrote:

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

Alchemist 23 wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

yes you gain the feat as per the description of the discovery, and you use your craft alchemy as your caster level for craft construct and you must use your craft alchemy to craft a construct as per the discovery description, the DC for not meeting the requirement (like not having the spell) still increase the DC of the construct to craft but you can use extract in place of spell requirement even if normally it must be a spell since the discovery say you can

Okay maybe I didn't make my self clear. My question is can I use craft Sculpture to craft a Homunculi using the craft construct feat in full knowledge that I will take a +5 for not having a caster level.

no you must use craft alchemy for creating the humonculus as per the discovery say

edit: normally you cannot take a craft that is not relevant to creating something, it must be the spellcraft skill or the relevant craft or profession you cannot use another one with a +5 to the DC

So your telling me it supersedes the crafting requirement of Craft Leather or Craft Sculpture listed in the homunculus crafting section? Because I have another thread on Master Craftsmen full of angry people who will argue you must use the listed skill if it has one.

master craftsman do not let you use the skill for crafting something, it let you use the profession or craft chosen by the feat as your caster level (and you have +2 to that skill) and you meet the prerequisite for taking craft magic arms and armour and wondrous item but you still need the relevant feat since it do not say you can use the chosen skill to craft any magic weapon, armour or wondrous item, but when you craft a magical item with that feat you must use the chosen skill, the discovery say you must use that skill and that skill also count for you caster level

Number 1 I direct you to this: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ugu8?I-am-confused-on-how-Master-Craftsman-wor ks#16

Number 2 I am confused by your phrasing and I think something is getting lost in translation. It's been established that if a item (construct or what ever) has a listed craft skill you must use that craft skill. As it stands only being able to use craft Alchemy would only let you make alchemical golems.

[Lorewalker]

Promethean Disciple makes it so you must use craft Alchemy to make a construct.

Promethean Disciple wrote:

"and must use Craft (alchemy) to create the construct."

This allows you to use craft alchemy to make any construct and it also means they must use craft alchemy instead of the normal craft required by the construct.

It doesn't limit you to constructs that have craft alchemy as a requirement.

[John Murdock]

i know of the thread since i participate in it i will write what master craftsman say

''Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.''

and now the promethean disciple discovery

''Prerequisite: Alchemist 6

Benefit: An alchemist with this discovery learns how to craft constructs by way of alchemical research rather than arcane magic. The alchemist gains Craft Construct as a bonus feat without needing to meet its requirements. The alchemist substitutes his number of ranks in Craft (alchemy) for his total caster level and must use Craft (alchemy) to create the construct. The DC to create the construct still increases for any necessary spells that the alchemist does not have access to. However, the alchemist can use extracts in place of spells as spell prerequisites.''

a feat always supersede a rule, like for TWF you incur huge penalties but if you take the feat you take the feat penalties intead of the normal one, and each one of those feat/discovery are clear, one say you can and must use that skill (craft alchemy) for crafting construct even if normally you can't do it and you use it as your CL and you gain craft construct feat even if normally you can't, while the other say you choose a craft or profession gain +2 to it (untype bonus) you use that skill as your CL you can take craft magic arms and armour and wondrous item even if normally you can't and you must use the skill in question to make the craft but it never say you can use that skill for magic crafting that require a precise skill to do it

[toastedamphibian]

I find John's phrasing to be a little confusing, but find no fault with his answer. The discovery says the alchemist does, not the alchemist may. However, I also don't see how this is a problem. Your an alchemist, presumably, not a sculptist. Your craft alchemy is presumably high enough. If it helps, assume your using it in place of spellcraft.

[Alchemist 23]

toastedamphibian wrote:

I find John's phrasing to be a little confusing, but find no fault with his answer. The discovery says the alchemist does, not the alchemist may. However, I also don't see how this is a problem. Your an alchemist, presumably, not a sculptist. Your craft alchemy is presumably high enough. If it helps, assume your using it in place of spellcraft.

Thanks I can understand it that way, still seems so weird when compared to how Master Craftsmen dose or dose not work.

Now to play Kingmaker, get to the point where the other players will just accept I need 4 BP a month and not to bother me in my mountain construct found-, ah I mean quite mountain villa.