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It's not about forum placement or the dictionary definition of the word—it's about the connotation that arrives with it: "If I get enough people behind me, you must listen to me!" In this context, it's faulty in both directions: one person standing alone may be listened to if their reasoning is solid, while a multitude won't get their way if our designers don't agree.
I don't think that is fair to the OP unless you read intent into the text which as we all know is problematic in written communication. While a single person may posit solid reasoning, if a large group with similar opinions ban together, it shows to those in control that the problem isn't just an issue for one person, it is widespread. That certainly does not mean you are "forced" or "required" to act on the commentary, but it certainly gives insight into the scope of the issue at hand. Think of it like play-testing. The larger the scope of the feedback the better the results.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The FAQ has received an official adjustment. The answer now reads:
First add up the total cost of the base item, including any special material. Then multiply by any multiplier for the size and unusual shape from Table 6-8. After that, add any additional cost for masterwork, if that isn't already part of the special material. Finally, apply any multiplier for discounts such as the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item. For example, a chain shirt costs 100 gp and a mithral chain shirt costs 1,100 gp after the +1,000 gp cost for mithral. If you were applying the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item using the Craft skill, the cost multiplier from Table 6-8 based on size and body type, or both, you would apply those multipliers to the full 1,100 gp cost for the mithral chain shirt. This means a mithral chain shirt built for a rune giant costs 8,800 gp and a mithral chain shirt built for the tarrasque costs 35,200 gp. On the other hand, a Large masterwork cold iron greatsword costs 500 gp (50 gp for a greatsword, doubled for cold iron, doubled again for a Large weapon, then adding masterwork last because cold iron isn't always masterwork).
Thank you for the update. I 100% support this FAQ.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The FAQ has received an official adjustment. The answer now reads:
First add up the total cost of the base item, including any special material. Then multiply by any multiplier for the size and unusual shape from Table 6-8. After that, add any additional cost for masterwork, if that isn't already part of the special material. Finally, apply any multiplier for discounts such as the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item. For example, a chain shirt costs 100 gp and a mithral chain shirt costs 1,100 gp after the +1,000 gp cost for mithral. If you were applying the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item using the Craft skill, the cost multiplier from Table 6-8 based on size and body type, or both, you would apply those multipliers to the full 1,100 gp cost for the mithral chain shirt. This means a mithral chain shirt built for a rune giant costs 8,800 gp and a mithral chain shirt built for the tarrasque costs 35,200 gp. On the other hand, a Large masterwork cold iron greatsword costs 500 gp (50 gp for a greatsword, doubled for cold iron, doubled again for a Large weapon, then adding masterwork last because cold iron isn't always masterwork).Thank you for the update. I 100% support this FAQ.
I am happy with this version.
Lead Designer
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Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.
Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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It fixes most of the issues; it fixes the bad problems, which were inconsistency with the CRB and UE.
There remain exploits with Fitting armor and such. For home games, you can go with a usual "don't be cheesy" rule. PFS will probably need to disallow Fitting. ("Don't be cheesy" would contradict the play style of too many players to be viable there....)
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Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.
Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Thanks for clearing things up in a quick and polite manner. We appreciate your efforts to keep the rule system clean and functional.
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I can understand why you get charged more for special material armor because it's big: The cloud giants 50 pound adamantine sword is going to have to pay for 150 years of an entire dwarven mining output. (or as dwarves call it, something they slapped together in a hurry)
I am completely at a loss to understand why the mithral costs more because it's been hammered into horse armor instead of human armor. You already pay the smith extra for dealing with a horse.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.
Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Jason,
Thank you for the quick review of the concerns expressed in this post on the FAQ and making the adjustment that was made. I know the design team has a lot on their plate. This gives the PFS players better clarity.
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Two things:
Simple. People were decrying the original ruling making things too complicated. If you treat different multipliers differently, then that adds an unnecessary level of complication.
Shape requires more material because the shapes have larger places to cover. And realistically, it's more likely to require more attempts to make the odd pieces.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'm quite curious as to why you have such a critical and negative view about this word choice.
For those who don't think "petition" and "demand" go hand-in-hand, I'll just point out that in Merriam-Webster—the same source that Hmm quoted the definition from—the first example usage provided for petition is this: "They collected 2,000 signatures on a petition demanding that women be allowed to join the club."
But at this point, everybody reading this thread knows where I'm coming from, and where Gary was coming from in the original post; I've got no hard feelings, and suggest we move on.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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But at this point, everybody reading this thread knows where I'm coming from, and where Gary was coming from in the original post; I've got no hard feelings, and suggest we move on.
I agree. We all have better things to do than to continue this discussion now that it has been reconsidered, which is all I was asking for.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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But at this point, everybody reading this thread knows where I'm coming from, and where Gary was coming from in the original post; I've got no hard feelings, and suggest we move on.I agree. We all have better things to do than to continue this discussion now that it has been reconsidered, which is all I was asking for.
Just as a future note, asking for reconsideration and asking for delayed implementation in PFS are two separate requests. Trouble brews when you try to do too many things with one thread.
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Does enchantment happen before or after the multiplication for size in this formula?
2nd, In the instance of mithral, adamantine, and other weapons that have their masterwork costs already factored in, do we cut that out and then apply that back to weapon after or just lump it in and do it all together?
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I think based on the revised ruling that the magic costs are the same as they have ever been, much like Masterwork but a little less complex thanks to the fact that there are no inherently magically enhanced special materials.
Actually, viridium, stone, and bone all have magically enhanced versions that increase functionality after being magically enhanced. Viridium calls out a +1000 gp markup for the boon while the others just state the whole "magical enhancement" part which is a bit ambivialent as to whether that's another version of the material or just what happens when you throw a +1 on them. I've always assumed the latter with bone & stone but considering this who knows.
Also, does this mean Paizo is going to go through and recalculate their giant loadouts in Monster Codex? I'd assume this kind of throws arming a lot of the giants out of the window for the foreseeable future as stuff bigger than clubs can start to really rocket up for a lot of those low tier 3rd-7th level range encounters.
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Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.
Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Honest question here. It seems most of the problem was in the Core Ruleback. Shouldn't that have been the one best known? I think a few people would really like it if we could get, say, FAQ 'playtests' before they actually go live and cause threads like this. It might even help people like Gauss not feel the need to leave Paizo and the community.
Gauss was posting just a few hours ago so I don't think he has left.
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This is also not how I have read the rules, but since this clears up the worst of the problems, I think I am also okay with it. Thanks to the design team for reviewing it so quickly!
The various methods for calculating special material cost, using different categories, criteria, and cost calculations--some with, and some without, the masterwork cost included--have really not done anyone a favor. I think the longer-term solution should be to rewrite the costs of every special material to be based on weight and weight alone and make the masterwork cost entirely separate, but that sounds like a job for my home games or pathfinder 2.
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This is also not how I have read the rules, but since this clears up the worst of the problems, I think I am also okay with it. Thanks to the design team for reviewing it so quickly!
The various methods for calculating special material cost, using different categories, criteria, and cost calculations--some with, and some without, the masterwork cost included--have really not done anyone a favor. I think the longer-term solution should be to rewrite the costs of every special material to be based on weight and weight alone and make the masterwork cost entirely separate, but that sounds like a job for my home games or pathfinder 2.
You would also create a weird mess of "realism" vs "mechanics". As was pointed out in at least one of the threads about this FAQ. Most things are priced based on mechanical benefit not really practical use or "actual economics" would price it.
As such if my 35lb adamantine banded mail, provided the same DR3/- as my 50lb adamantine full plate, but is 70% cheaper, that makes things awkward.
In the case of like current mithral pricing being based on weight for weapons you have the only benefit (besides counted as silver, which is a super cheap bonus on itself) being that it weighs less, so it makes sense that the cost should be directly proportionate to the weight, because the weight is the benefit.
I don't know how this translates out to a lot of other materials because those are the two that I use/care about the most, but it seems to me that special materials are priced they way they are because of mechanical benefit reasons, not realism.
This pricing idea I think is also why a lot of people thought that special material prices would not be multiplied with size difference because it provides the same mechanical benefit, but it is now at a new size level which gives different scales of power possibilities for the creatures it is made for, so seeing it get more expensive does not seem unreasonable.
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This is also not how I have read the rules, but since this clears up the worst of the problems, I think I am also okay with it. Thanks to the design team for reviewing it so quickly!
The various methods for calculating special material cost, using different categories, criteria, and cost calculations--some with, and some without, the masterwork cost included--have really not done anyone a favor. I think the longer-term solution should be to rewrite the costs of every special material to be based on weight and weight alone and make the masterwork cost entirely separate, but that sounds like a job for my home games or pathfinder 2.
You would also create a weird mess of "realism" vs "mechanics". As was pointed out in at least one of the threads about this FAQ. Most things are priced based on mechanical benefit not really practical use or "actual economics" would price it.
As such if my 35lb adamantine banded mail, provided the same DR3/- as my 50lb adamantine full plate, but is 70% cheaper, that makes things awkward.
In the case of like current mithral pricing being based on weight for weapons you have the only benefit (besides counted as silver, which is a super cheap bonus on itself) being that it weighs less, so it makes sense that the cost should be directly proportionate to the weight, because the weight is the benefit.
I don't know how this translates out to a lot of other materials because those are the two that I use/care about the most, but it seems to me that special materials are priced they way they are because of mechanical benefit reasons, not realism.
This pricing idea I think is also why a lot of people thought that special material prices would not be multiplied with size difference because it provides the same mechanical benefit, but it is now at a new size level which gives different scales of power possibilities for the creatures it is made for, so seeing it get more expensive does not seem unreasonable.
If you wanted to make it work, it would be a project, not a simple repricing. You'd need to look at weights and average prices and benefits and a lot of other things. It may not be feasible at all; I just think it's the simplest way forward off the top of my "I've thought about this deeply for about 5 minutes" head.
There remain exploits with Fitting armor and such. For home games, you can go with a usual "don't be cheesy" rule. PFS will probably need to disallow Fitting. ("Don't be cheesy" would contradict the play style of too many players to be viable there....)
As I pointed out elsewhere, not sure if here or other thread, this doesn't have to be seen as an exploit. Now a DM is free to equip larger bad guys with special material items without having to worry about hundreds of thousands of treasure/gp being tied up in that equipment. Now the DM just has a single price to work with no matter the size of the baddy wearing the armor.
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magic items intent is pretty much to "break/bypass" some rules now and again. ring of evasion breaks reflex for half damage rules. Ring of sustenance breaks survival gather food rules. cord of stubborn resolve breaks lack of sleep rules and rage rules. sharding and blink back belt breaks throwing rules. Impact breaks weapon damage for size rules. muleback cords breaks encumbrance rules. Comfort breaks ACP rules. Bracers of armor break monks no armor rules. Etc.
Many magic items and enhancements make certain rules no longer apply to the character.
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what FAQ? i see no FAQ update, just ppl complaining/discussing it??
EDIT - i see the change in the FAQ of course. what i mean is, it was not mentioned in the paizo blog. other than seeing a zillion ppl posting about this, how/where should i have known the FAQ had been updated before being surprised by this at a con?
Honest question here. It seems most of the problem was in the Core Ruleback. Shouldn't that have been the one best known? I think a few people would really like it if we could get, say, FAQ 'playtests' before they actually go live and cause threads like this. It might even help people like Gauss not feel the need to leave Paizo and the community.Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.
Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
If I was leaving I would just do it, I wouldn't make a production out of it.
I never threatened to leave, I expressed concern over the direction Paizo is going.
I used to tout Paizo as the company that talks to its customers on a regular basis and listens to what we want (even if it doesn't always give it to us). I have not been able to tell people that for a couple years now.
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very bottom of last pagewhat FAQ? i see no FAQ update, just ppl complaining/discussing it??
sorry i edited my post, but thx for that!
thats post #250 in a thread complaining about the FAQ change. what i mean is how did people get clued in to the FAQ change in the first place? i monitor the paizo blog and didnt recall seeing it, just checked and it was not in there.
ty in advance
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what i mean is how did people get clued in to the FAQ change in the first place? i monitor the paizo blog and didnt recall seeing it, just checked and it was not in there.
ty in advance
Mark seifer's "ask mark seifer anything" in off topic. Some people that should spend more time outside *whistles innocently* pretty much spam it with f5 on faq fridays tuesdays.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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You get charged double for the mitrhal in the armor because its going on a horse because _____________ ?
Ok I will bite...
Yea, you want some mithral plate barding for your warhorse. Let me take a look at the beast. Hmm.. pretty big guy.. will take a bit more metal to make the barding. And extra time time to make each of the pieces. i will need to have the horse close by as I fit all the pieces. whats that? Of course my work is first class. I am a master at my craft.. The bindings and straps? Why yes, I use only the finest leather, made by the finest leather crafters in these here parts. Why they have been doing it for 30 years, almost as long as I have been a blacksmith. And they are not cheap, let me tell. True masters! Just like me ** Have I mentioned that I am a master blacksmith?? Yes.. good.**
What, the 4,400 GP is too high? what do you think is a fair price? 1,400?? Why hell that will barely buy the mithral I need to do the job...
Well you let me know if you want that barding. Oh, and the other blacksmiths in town? They are all my kin... have a nice day...
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Watches Gary break a tooth.
Straps and buckles are why you pay double the base cost to begin with.
LOL, no the straps and buckles alone do not double the base cost. My point is that there is likely a lot to consider when making barding for larger+ creatures. While the amount of material need likely does not increase proportionally, I believe the other factors do. More work to make more pieces. The time to make it. Barding is not an off-the-rack item.
We play in a fantasy setting that does not directly equal our real world.
I don't think the cost multiplier is out of line. I realize you disagree. So the best I think we can do on this issue is to respectfully disagree and enjoy playing the adventures.
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Barding is not an off-the-rack item.
Nothing is really an off the rack item. Its a pre industrial society.
And not every armor is custom fitted plate mail. Toss on a sweater toss on some chainmail and you're good to go. If you have too much at the feast they can let it out for you pretty easily.LOL, no the straps and buckles alone do not double the base cost. My point is that there is likely a lot to consider when making barding for larger+ creatures.
Stop. Listen.
I did not object to more mithral costing more. I objected to the non humanoid portion costing you twice as much special material, on TOP of the extra cost for more mithral and on top of the non humanoid body shape fee you already pay in the base price.
We play in a fantasy setting that does not directly equal our real world.
Arbitrary and ridiculous rules that are spelled out are one thing. (and this is what i think is ticking me off the most about this ruling) but ridiculous and arbitrary solutions to rules gray areas that exist for years undermine sense itself, which you need to fill in tons of gaps and gray areas. Every single rules question i see now i need to bite down the urge to say "well gods know how they want to actually resolve it ..."
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have more important things in my life than to let something in a game work me up that much. Do I like it? No. But I am not a designer. I don't have the time or talent to make one. So I play in someone else world and I have to accept what someone else had designated.
Or I could not play. The choice is always there.