Subjective reality, faq if you care


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

How big can the target of this spell be?

Could I target a castle to walk through several walls and immediately spot the secret room, and where all the bad guys are?

I would assume so, but that's kinda powerful...


I think a DM could easily argue that an entire castle is more than "one object."

Silver Crusade

Is it, though? It's one structural object. Unless, of course, there are separate houses within the castle...

Alright... What about a fortress?
Or a cathedral? Or a city wall (a meters thick one, with rooms built in the wall)?

Or a single mountain? A hill? A big tree? A warship? A moon? A sun?

I'm not trying to troll, here. I just wonder what the limits are.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Viondar wrote:
How big can the target of this spell be?

Colossal. Most castles are larger than colossal.


Technically, as the spell is written, there is no limit to what constitutes an object, except by what the DM will allow. I don't see any wiggle room or room to argue about it. It's a very nice spell, either way.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Viondar wrote:
How big can the target of this spell be?
Colossal. Most castles are larger than colossal.

For lack of a real limit, this might actually work well. If only to stop players from targeting "the earth" or "golarion", or whatever the name of the planet is ;)

And yeah, it is a really nice spell! It's also the only level 5 spell on the medium list *facepalm*.
We just ruled that to mean level 4 ;)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Viondar wrote:
How big can the target of this spell be?
Colossal. Most castles are larger than colossal.

I feel the need to point out that there is no size category after colossal, so everything would be targetable.


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Unless your GM is a mereological nihilist...


I have had this same thought, we ended up with a say you targeted a building, that would mean the doors weren't part, the windows weren't but the walls were because they were all made from the same stuff.

So basically the majority material in the structure became what the spell targeted. It made very little sense and was a bit weird "wait so I believe this random door floating in the air is real but not the concrete surrounding it" I'd like something less vague personally but I think one could end up ruining the spell that way.


Another point;

You wouldn't be able to walk through the castle (can't walk on an illusion) so the ground would be a giant pit, now the spell caster would have fly at that level, but you wouldn't be able to walk through the building tho


with a scroll of Air walk you would :P

or you could take a step ladder.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:
I feel the need to point out that there is no size category after colossal, so everything would be targetable.

How do you figure?


The spell description does say that it has to be an object you can see. If we take that to mean see the object in its entirety, then that sets a hard limit as the visual frame within 400 ft. +40 ft. per level.

To the optics copter!


would that mean only exterior walls if trying from the outside?


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
would that mean only exterior walls if trying from the outside?

In this simulation, it might not even mean that. A sufficiently imposing castle would be large enough to exceed the field of view of a person standing on the ground at that distance. Therefore it would not qualify as an "object" in this particular definition.

And as long as part of the wall was outside of the field of view, the entire outer wall could not be said to constitute an object either (again, only with this particular definition).

Of course, one might note that this is a high level spell and there are plenty of ways of walking through walls if you have access to 6th level psychic or 7th level wizard spells... so letting somebody say "the castle isn't there" probably is just fine and debating what constitutes an object is a task better suited to philosophers...


I tend to agree

So yeah
I think the funnier application is to tell the big bad body guard guy that you simply refuse to believe he is real though and then promptly murder the guy he is guarding.


At the level this is available I don't think it's very useful against creatures, most are going to have magic weapons and do 50% damage. You'd be better off with Dust Form. There may be some exceptions like golems or natural attack creatures that don't have a DR/magic or some other ability allowing them to do the 50% to you, of course.

Where this is fun is vs. an object or "force." Prismatic Sphere or Wall of Suppression in the way? No problem. An avalanche about to sweep you away in two rounds? It didn't even tickle! (Sorry, rest of the party.) Sphere of Annihilation about to eat you? More like Sphere of Nopeilation, amirite?


Most NPCs will but lots of a creatures with natural attacks won't.

Does the Tarrasque's weapons count as magic? xD

EDIT: also I don't think anything that read as "counts as magic for the purposes of DR" would necessarily count.

Also would you not rule that spells like prismatic sphere had a 50% chance of working? or at least the plane shift and stone flesh ones as per the line

Quote:
non-damaging magical abilities have a 50% chance not to affect you


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Most NPCs will but lots of a creatures with natural attacks won't.

Does the Tarrasque's weapons count as magic? xD

Yeah, but Dust Form does exactly the same thing but against everyone for the same duration and at a generally lower spell level. If you're mostly worried about immunity/50% protection against creatures in combat, pick Dust Form. Subjective Reality is less powerful in combat but more versatile in weird situations, depending on whether your GM lets you treat the sea as an object or other fun tricks.


Yeah but with dust form you have to turn into dust, just walking through people/things as if they're not their is way more badass than becoming a dust mote :P

EDIT: also pretty sure bards, mediums, Mesmerists and psychics don't get dust form and cast it as a 6 level spell. The same level Clerics, Druids and Witches cast dust form. So most people get one or the other, not both and they're mostly at the same spell level.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Yeah but with dust form you have to turn into dust, just walking through people/things as if they're not their is way more badass than becoming a dust mote :P

EDIT: also pretty sure bards, mediums, Mesmerists and psychics don't get dust form and cast it as a 6 level spell. The same level Clerics, Druids and Witches cast dust form. So most people get one or the other, not both and they're mostly at the same spell level.

Dust Form: alchemist 5, cleric/oracle 6, druid 6, hunter 6, investigator 5, psychic 6, warpriest 6, witch 6

Sonic Form: alchemist 6, arcanist 6, bard 6, investigator 6, psychic 6, skald 6, sorcerer/wizard 6

Subjective Reality: arcanist 7, bard 6, medium 5, mesmerist 5, psychic 6, skald 6, sorcerer/wizard 7

The wiz/sorc/arcanist has better access to Sonic Form. The Bard/Skald has equal access to Sonic Form. The medium can't actually access any of these. The Psychic has equal access to Dust Form or Sonic Form. (I prefer Dust Form to Sonic Form because I think the vulnerabilities of Sonic Form aren't worth the touch attack, but defensively they're equivalent.)

So only the Mesmerist doesn't have a more generally applicable defensive option in combat.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:


Also would you not rule that spells like prismatic sphere had a 50% chance of working? or at least the plane shift and stone flesh ones as per the line
Quote:
non-damaging magical abilities have a 50% chance not to affect you

Yeah, my mistake. That makes Subjective Reality extra bad unless your GM regularly throws avalanches, tsunamis, mudslides, volcanic eruptions, and similar massive mundane threats at you (but why not fly or teleport away?) and allows this spell to work on them or treats a castle as an "object" for infiltration purposes. (Given Ethereal Jaunt at a similar level, I think that's actually a quite reasonable interpretation.)

Anyway, I think Subjective Reality, with GM support, has a few potentially powerful effects (single target defense, infiltration, 50% protection against really dangerous magic effects, walking through walls, ignoring mundane dangers), it's just that other spells do them better or earlier and not all the things Subjective Reality can do will come up that often.


Thing is though, the psychics, bards and Skalds all have spells known, so they're not gonna take several of these.

Given the various combat applications overlapping fairly heavily (with subjective reality being better for magic effects and dust being better for letting your continue fighting your opponent) I don't see why any of those classes would take Dust form when the other utility is you can squeeze for x rounds vs you simply say the thing you would otherwise try to squeeze through simply isn't there.

Also way more kewl :P dust form is a fine spell but I don't see many classes that can pick subjective reality picking dust form over it. Now Sonic form I can see being taken by Arcanists and Sorcs.

So yeah when it overlaps with dust and sonic the defensive applications tend to be similar and the utility ones I would say the heavily waited on the side of subjective reality. And I repeat, telling a big brute or a massive great beastie you simply don't believe it to be real is way cooler than turning yourself into dust in the face of such an enemy xD


Dust/Sonic Form: Every creature in a mob either can't hurt me or can only do 50% damage/50% chance of effecting you. You can also move through all occupied squares since you're tiny or smaller (albeit drawing an AoO in the process). You can also squeeze through some small passages to escape, if you need to.

Subjective Reality: One creature in a mob either can't hurt me or can only do 50% damage/50% chance of effecting you. You can also walk through him, but no one else, and draw an AoO as normal for leaving a threatened square.

You can also cast the spell again or independently for some other rare niche effects that might be better accomplished by Ethereal Jaunt, Dispel Magic, Spell Immunity/Spell Resistance, flight, Teleport/Dimensional Door, elemental resistances, Wall of Force, etc.

I wouldn't take either of these spells, personally. If I were especially worried about combat defense, however, and seeking incorporeal protection, I would take Dust/Sonic Form. If I were worried about overcoming other threats, I'd take general utility spells that I'm going to take anyway.


I wrote a reply, my internet went down
lost reply I am now sad bean. If I had sad bean alias I'd use it.

you're getting the gist of said post now cause I cba.

forgot their could be more than one thing to fight, massive brain fart.

A lot of the spells you think people are trying to replicate I don't think they are (wall of force/teleport/dispel magic) and many of them I suggest people would probably take both if they wanted them (dispel magic/spell immunity/dim door/elemental resistance) because either the spell doesn't really do those things or there is such a gap in spell level I don't see why someone would wait that long to get a partial replacement.

You don't like the spell, but it has a lot of partial utility for creative players and can in a pinch do a lot of different things replicated by different spells and I can see people taking it. I for one planned to but didn't get high enough level.

Also its funny.


I could see this as a fun contingency, actually. "Whenever an object, creature, or force would cause my immediate death or unconsciousness, I will immediately stop believing in it and hope that it goes away."

Another interesting trick for a high-level god wizard would be casting this spell before combat broke out - not as protection for themselves, but as protection for an ally. If the god wizard stopped believing in a powerful melee-inclined party member, that character would become immune to all of the wizards destructive area effects and battlefield control. Just think of how glorious it would be to have the party barbarian or paladin shrug off your mage's disjunction or meteor swarm, then step calmly through your prismatic wall to continue slaughtering the enemies.


Wizards can't contingency this, it's 7th level. Psychics can, if they took Contingency as a spontaneous caster.

The ally trick is ok, I guess. Mage's Disjunction would still work, I think, because it effects the spells, not ally. Same reason you can't spell turn a targeted dispel magic.


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Subjective reality aside, any psychic who can't cast contingency by 18th level should really just give in and buy a page of spell knowledge if they want to live.

I agree that mage's disjunction would still eliminate active spells, but the character's magic items should be safe, right? If the effects of subjective reality don't extend to a creature's gear, we're going to have much bigger problems on our hands: namely, that their weapons can still hit one another, and they can't walk through each other without taking off their clothes.


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I don't believe that Barbarian is real but I am quite sure there is a loin cloth floating in the air.


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Nothingness wrote:
Unless your GM is a mereological nihilist...

Loki's neck, the board game?


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I don't believe there's any disagreement or contradiction here. :P


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

How on earth does this spell qualify as a phantasm? Its physically effecting reality. I don't even see how it can qualify as an illusion.


Scientific Scrutiny wrote:

The spell description does say that it has to be an object you can see. If we take that to mean see the object in its entirety, then that sets a hard limit as the visual frame within 400 ft. +40 ft. per level.

To the optics copter!

Are we going to argue mountains cannot be seen because they are too big?

Makes you wonder what all those trees are growing on ...


Snowlilly wrote:
Scientific Scrutiny wrote:

The spell description does say that it has to be an object you can see. If we take that to mean see the object in its entirety, then that sets a hard limit as the visual frame within 400 ft. +40 ft. per level.

To the optics copter!

Are we going to argue mountains cannot be seen because they are too big?

Makes you wonder what all those trees are growing on ...

What trees? All I see is a forest.


Forests are way too big for that frame
so is the ground.

I just see some houses floating in the void.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
I feel the need to point out that there is no size category after colossal, so everything would be targetable.
How do you figure?

The creature size listings on the PRD, there are no other size definitions in pathfinder as far as I'm aware and colossal includes "or more" for it's sizes, indicating that everything bigger than what it says is also colossal. And if this allows you to target colossal things (which it allows you to target colossal creatures at the very minimum), then it allows you to target everything.


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If I cast subjective reality on the sun does that mean it becomes night time, but only for me?


Ravingdork wrote:
How on earth does this spell qualify as a phantasm? Its physically effecting reality. I don't even see how it can qualify as an illusion.

It's a phantasm cast on yourself. Think of it as creating a quasi-mindscape that overlays reality with one exception.

Also, it's magic.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

But if it lets you walk through a wall of fire or a solid barrier, it's not an illusion. Something has physically changed.

You can't alter reality just by believing in something, not without wish or a deific-level power.

A mind-affecting spell can make a man think he's a goat, but it can't turn him into one. That's the realm of transmutation. Same applies here.

What were they thinking when they made this?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Avoron wrote:
Subjective reality aside, any psychic who can't cast contingency by 18th level should really just give in and buy a page of spell knowledge if they want to live.

I bought a mnemonic vestment for my psychic, to handle all the permanency and contingency spells I need.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
If I cast subjective reality on the sun does that mean it becomes night time, but only for me?

Whoa.

Dude.

I'm buggin out here, man.


Ravingdork wrote:

But if it lets you walk through a wall of fire or a solid barrier, it's not an illusion. Something has physically changed.

You can't alter reality just by believing in something, not without wish or a deific-level power.

Reality is just an illusion.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Reality is just an illusion.

Yeah, but when you fail your Will save, it turns out there's a reality below that illusion-reality that matches it perfectly in every detail.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
If I cast subjective reality on the sun does that mean it becomes night time, but only for me?

If you're close enough to cast Subjective Reality on the Sun, you have bigger problems than night time.


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DrSwordopolis wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If I cast subjective reality on the sun does that mean it becomes night time, but only for me?
If you're close enough to cast Subjective Reality on the Sun, you have bigger problems than night time.

Well, first you cast subjective reality on the empty space between you and the sun. Once that pesky 93 million miles of vacuum is out of the way, you quicken cast it again on the sun.

#science


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Since the beginning of time, Man has yearned to destroy the sun.


Ravingdork wrote:

But if it lets you walk through a wall of fire or a solid barrier, it's not an illusion. Something has physically changed.

You can't alter reality just by believing in something, not without wish or a deific-level power.

A mind-affecting spell can make a man think he's a goat, but it can't turn him into one. That's the realm of transmutation. Same applies here.

What were they thinking when they made this?

I mean, it's weird and all, but I don't think it really goes beyond the scope laid out in other phantasms. Loads of phantasm spells cause actual hit point damage, and spells like illusory poison and phantasmal affliction can cause actual damage to physical ability scores. Placebo effect can free the target from real physical conditions like blindness, deafness, and paralysis. Vision of Lamashtu can deliver all sorts of real physical effects. If someone gets caught in a phantasmal web and a trapdoor opens beneath their feet, they're still not going to fall. Strange as it seems, in Pathfinder perception can literally shape reality.


I just see it as the following:

The spell just gives a semblance of reality to a pseudo-reality, waiting just on the other side of perception to be made real, and allows you to step into it briefly. While you are in that reality, it shapes itself to whatever reality you just left, except for whatever target you chose to be semi-real in its stead. While you are in this other reality, a pseudo-real version of yourself is walking/moving around in your place and whatever happens to it, happens to yourself.

Dark Archive

Avoron wrote:
I could see this as a fun contingency, actually. "Whenever an object, creature, or force would cause my immediate death or unconsciousness, I will immediately stop believing in it and hope that it goes away."

Tried it. Didn't work.

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