feats you think are seriously underrated


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I've always thought that the combination of Performing Combatant (to allow performance feats to be used in any combat) and Mocking Dance was absurdly powerful for a ranged attack character. Essentially it allows full attack along with one or more full moves nearly every round.


CBDunkerson wrote:
I've always thought that the combination of Performing Combatant (to allow performance feats to be used in any combat) and Mocking Dance was absurdly powerful for a ranged attack character. Essentially it allows full attack along with one or more full moves nearly every round.

Only if you can pass that ubsrudly diffcult preformance combat check reliably.


Louise Bishop wrote:

I really think Blind-Fight is sorely Underrated.

I typically play full casters but Have been playing (and enjoying) a brawler. I have used Martial Flexibility to pick up Blind-fight and it has been great. I have landed more attacks thanks to the feat. The class really got me thinking about a Hunter that uses Fogs and a companion that has scent and Blind-fight. Using Fogs to gain Mischance (an extra layer of defense) and to cripple my enemies at the same time. Might make it a BBEG for a homebrew I am trying to write.

I love the Blind-Fight line of feats.

My magus abuses the hell out of them by combining with spells that shut down vision.

A particularly effective tactic vs enemy spellcasters and enemies with a lot of SLAs.

Silver Crusade

Lady-J wrote:
keerawa wrote:
I really like Breadth of Experience both for the functionality and for the role-play value. "That reminds me of the time I was a Pirate.." "When I worked as a barmaid, we could always pick out the creeps." "Technology? Hah! I was smuggling tech out of Numeria before you were a gleam in your pappy's eye!"
why doesnt that feat apply to other races that can get 100+ or even 1000+ years?

I never understood that either. I really think the prereq should just be an age > 100 on a race where that doesn't make you ancient. Listing specific races just to keep people from playing geriatric humans has the unintended side affect of limiting dragons or other long lived critters from getting this.

And I agree that it's a great feat. I actually have it on two PFS skill monkey characters (gnome prankster bard and elf skill/casting focused occultist).


Other than the feats already mentioned, my favorites are:
-the Studied Combat line. Makes 2wf on 3/4 BAB work.
-Lifebound is awesome.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
I'd like to nominate Cut from the Air as a feat that people tend to overlook.

Cut/Smash from the Air on a Swashbuckler is absolutely ridiculous.


Ambuscading Spell is really good for casters who get regular surprise rounds. It's double Spell Focus to any spell you lead off with.


Bladelock wrote:

Other than the feats already mentioned, my favorites are:

-the Studied Combat line. Makes 2wf on 3/4 BAB work.
-Lifebound is awesome.

I thought that Studied Combat was only an Investigator class feature?


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Bladelock wrote:

Other than the feats already mentioned, my favorites are:

-the Studied Combat line. Makes 2wf on 3/4 BAB work.
-Lifebound is awesome.
I thought that Studied Combat was only an Investigator class feature?

Studied Combatant (and Improved) require you to not have levels in an inspiration-using class. However, they also require the Amateur Investigator feat, a move action, and only last IntMod rounds. And they've got nontrivial BAB requirements (+6 and +8, respectively), meaning a 3/4 BAB class isn't going to see them until mid levels. It's a nice numeric buff, but the feat cost, action cost, and duration are less than ideal.

Silver Crusade

Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Bladelock wrote:

Other than the feats already mentioned, my favorites are:

-the Studied Combat line. Makes 2wf on 3/4 BAB work.
-Lifebound is awesome.
I thought that Studied Combat was only an Investigator class feature?

Studied Combatant?

Edit: ninjaed.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Blind-Fight, Cosmopolitan, Cunning, Defensive Combat Training, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Quick Draw, Run, Skill Focus, and Toughness. Also any feat that grants bonuses to skills like alertness, stealthy, etc.
Im going to have to agree with the dragon. for the right character the right one of those can be a great boon.

With the exception of endurance, none of rose feats strike me as underrated. Many of them are among the most popular feats in the game.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Louise Bishop wrote:

I really think Blind-Fight is sorely Underrated.

I typically play full casters but Have been playing (and enjoying) a brawler. I have used Martial Flexibility to pick up Blind-fight and it has been great. I have landed more attacks thanks to the feat. The class really got me thinking about a Hunter that uses Fogs and a companion that has scent and Blind-fight. Using Fogs to gain Mischance (an extra layer of defense) and to cripple my enemies at the same time. Might make it a BBEG for a homebrew I am trying to write.

I love the Blind-Fight line of feats.

My magus abuses the hell out of them by combining with spells that shut down vision.

A particularly effective tactic vs enemy spellcasters and enemies with a lot of SLAs.

Extremely effective against Mirror Image. Instead of dealing with the odds of the images (66%-92% miss), just close your eyes and roll twice for your 50% miss.


This is brand new, so it's underrated purely because people aren't thinking about it yet but Equipment Trick: Smokestick gives you fairly easy access to swift action feinting. You'll need 1 rank in craft: alchemy, improved feint, a supply of smokesticks, and the feat and then you can feint as a swift action.

Now I have to figure out how I can do this and still have a hand free so as to make the devoted muse PrC work. Can a Tiefling manipulate a smokestick with their tail?


Disruptive and Spellbreaker. They are okay when fighting full casters (as some have gimped stats if made using paizo's arrays) but they really shine against outsiders, whose main threat is spellcasting but also come with melee attacks that make doing something other than move away just tempting enough to keep them from casting. At higher levels, you want to combine them with a greater distracting weapon to keep them relevant.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

This is brand new, so it's underrated purely because people aren't thinking about it yet but Equipment Trick: Smokestick gives you fairly easy access to swift action feinting. You'll need 1 rank in craft: alchemy, improved feint, a supply of smokesticks, and the feat and then you can feint as a swift action.

Now I have to figure out how I can do this and still have a hand free so as to make the devoted muse PrC work. Can a Tiefling manipulate a smokestick with their tail?

Kasatha?


Ventnor wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

This is brand new, so it's underrated purely because people aren't thinking about it yet but Equipment Trick: Smokestick gives you fairly easy access to swift action feinting. You'll need 1 rank in craft: alchemy, improved feint, a supply of smokesticks, and the feat and then you can feint as a swift action.

Now I have to figure out how I can do this and still have a hand free so as to make the devoted muse PrC work. Can a Tiefling manipulate a smokestick with their tail?

Kasatha?

Grippli with an agile tongue? Bonus points if you disguise the smokestick to look like a rose.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A rose? Make it look like a big honkin' cigar! Few things are more badass than a battletoad with a cigar! He can open up combat by swallowing the cigar, then exhaling the smoke cloud. :D


exotic weapon proficiency


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Arcane Blast from the APG. The first time I read it, I thought "Why would I ever want this feat? It lets me sacrifice a spell slot for a ray attack that does less damage than the spell alone would do!"

Then I figured out that while it's ho-hum for most casters, it's positively glorious for an Arcane Trickster:

1) Because it's a ray attack, you can sneak attack with it.
2) Because the damage is untyped, it bypasses all energy resistances and immunities.
3) Because it's explicitly listed as a Supernatural ability, it bypasses spell resistance.

I'm currently playing an arcane trickster with 9d6 of sneak attack. Would I like to sacrifice a 1st level spell to do 12d6 of damage that bypasses SR and energy immunities? Heck yeah! It's solid, reliable damage for opponents with annoyingly high SR.


Lady-J wrote:
exotic weapon proficiency

I think that the fact that people are always trying to "cheat" their way to being able to use an exotic weapon through a racial trait, a trait, or an ioun stone shows that it's not that desirable to take as a feat.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
exotic weapon proficiency
I think that the fact that people are always trying to "cheat" their way to being able to use an exotic weapon through a racial trait, a trait, or an ioun stone shows that it's not that desirable to take as a feat.

with weapon creation rules you can actually go in and make exotic weapons that are actually good and worth while to spend a feat on being able to use


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Lady-J wrote:
with weapon creation rules you can actually go in and make exotic weapons that are actually good and worth while to spend a feat on being able to use

My interpretation of the "weapon creation rules" is that they're like the "race creation rules" in the ARG. Which is to say, guidelines for a GM to make something flavorful, rather than a tool for the players to make something really, really powerful.

Of course, YMMV. Then again, the weapon modification rules now let you build a crit-fishing brawler who uses outslug style with a fauchard, so maybe it was always intentional.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
with weapon creation rules you can actually go in and make exotic weapons that are actually good and worth while to spend a feat on being able to use

My interpretation of the "weapon creation rules" is that they're like the "race creation rules" in the ARG. Which is to say, guidelines for a GM to make something flavorful, rather than a tool for the players to make something really, really powerful.

Of course, YMMV. Then again, the weapon modification rules now let you build a crit-fishing brawler who uses outslug style with a fauchard, so maybe it was always intentional.

not really really powerful just "better" than a martial weapon which when you need to spend a feat to be able to use it exotic weapons should be better than martial weapons


shaventalz wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Bladelock wrote:

Other than the feats already mentioned, my favorites are:

-the Studied Combat line. Makes 2wf on 3/4 BAB work.
-Lifebound is awesome.
I thought that Studied Combat was only an Investigator class feature?
Studied Combatant (and Improved) require you to not have levels in an inspiration-using class. However, they also require the Amateur Investigator feat, a move action, and only last IntMod rounds. And they've got nontrivial BAB requirements (+6 and +8, respectively), meaning a 3/4 BAB class isn't going to see them until mid levels. It's a nice numeric buff, but the feat cost, action cost, and duration are less than ideal.

3/4 BAB builds only start to have problems hitting at mid levels so these feats come online just in time. Also you rarely need more than a few rounds to kill a target.


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graystone wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Fart saves are very important

But yeah when my sorc would have a will save of 30 it makes his arrogance a cockiness a bit more justifiable

I laughed way too hard at this.
Got to love auto-correct. :P

I thought this referred to the Fortitude Adaptability and Resilience Test developed in Egorian to test Constitution . . . .


Bladelock wrote:
Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Canny Tumble

Your acrobatic prowess distracts your foes.

Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

I find many people just look over the Feat name and assume it deals with the Uncanny Dodge ability. I've been using it to great effect with a Slayer (Vanguard Archtype). In reality it's good with any character that can deal Sneak Attack damage.

Quickrunner Shirt on a rogue with Whirlwind = nasty. Add in some lunge and LongArm for room destruction. It really is one of my favorite feats for rogues or maneuverable vital strikers.

What does quick runners shirt do for your whirlwind rogue?


Merm7th wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Canny Tumble

Your acrobatic prowess distracts your foes.

Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

I find many people just look over the Feat name and assume it deals with the Uncanny Dodge ability. I've been using it to great effect with a Slayer (Vanguard Archtype). In reality it's good with any character that can deal Sneak Attack damage.

Quickrunner Shirt on a rogue with Whirlwind = nasty. Add in some lunge and LongArm for room destruction. It really is one of my favorite feats for rogues or maneuverable vital strikers.
What does quick runners shirt do for your whirlwind rogue?

Assuming the rogue has top of initiative before any of the bad guys are getting to go or very close to it and is facing a fairly bunched up group of enemies, the shirt provides the move action.


Merm7th wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Canny Tumble

Your acrobatic prowess distracts your foes.

Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

I find many people just look over the Feat name and assume it deals with the Uncanny Dodge ability. I've been using it to great effect with a Slayer (Vanguard Archtype). In reality it's good with any character that can deal Sneak Attack damage.

Quickrunner Shirt on a rogue with Whirlwind = nasty. Add in some lunge and LongArm for room destruction. It really is one of my favorite feats for rogues or maneuverable vital strikers.
What does quick runners shirt do for your whirlwind rogue?

You need to tumble through opponent's threatened area to make them lose dex. That takes a move action. Whirlwind is a full round so you need the swift move from the shirt for the combo.

For smaller areas you can rock Gr.Cleave but it takes more feats.


Bladelock wrote:
Merm7th wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Canny Tumble

Your acrobatic prowess distracts your foes.

Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

I find many people just look over the Feat name and assume it deals with the Uncanny Dodge ability. I've been using it to great effect with a Slayer (Vanguard Archtype). In reality it's good with any character that can deal Sneak Attack damage.

Quickrunner Shirt on a rogue with Whirlwind = nasty. Add in some lunge and LongArm for room destruction. It really is one of my favorite feats for rogues or maneuverable vital strikers.
What does quick runners shirt do for your whirlwind rogue?

You need to tumble through opponent's threatened area to make them lose dex. That takes a move action. Whirlwind is a full round so you need the swift move from the shirt for the combo.

For smaller areas you can rock Gr.Cleave but it takes more feats.

But it you use the quick runners shirt to tumble through the enemy squares it ends your turn before you can whirlwind.


Ah, they've nerfed the shirt I see. So it's a "run away after taking a full-attack" shirt.

Best have your dimension door buddy working with the Whirlwind rogue. Bamf in, flip blender switch on. Anything that survives the archer mows down. ;)


I have an unhealthy fondness for Vital Strike, it even putting that aside I feel like the feat has an unnecessarily bad reputation. It features in my generalist combatant builds and a few of the more bizarre one-hit builds I've planned. People that discount it out of hand almost always fail to take into account how unreliable iterative attacks are at actually landing unless the deck is utterly stacked in your favor. It might be a trap feat for players that don't fully understand the game's math but it certainly has its place as a useful feat


I like it a lot for taking advantage of things that are at hand. Siege engines to the face. Arcane Blast. An available loaded musket or pistol. Crossbows when you're underwater. Sneak attack from surprise. 0-level spells that deal damage. Certain 3+[ability score mod]/day abilities from an array from classes. The list is fairly significant.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
A rose? Make it look like a big honkin' cigar! Few things are more badass than a battletoad with a cigar! He can open up combat by swallowing the cigar, then exhaling the smoke cloud. :D

I can confirm this. *lights a cigar*


Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
I have an unhealthy fondness for Vital Strike, it even putting that aside I feel like the feat has an unnecessarily bad reputation. It features in my generalist combatant builds and a few of the more bizarre one-hit builds I've planned. People that discount it out of hand almost always fail to take into account how unreliable iterative attacks are at actually landing unless the deck is utterly stacked in your favor. It might be a trap feat for players that don't fully understand the game's math but it certainly has its place as a useful feat

If you're a martial, then you're probably going to stack attack bonuses to the point where you can hit most of the time even with -5.

And at high levels, you can be hasted most of the time, so if you have the option of a full attack, you'll get two attacks at your highest bonus (and inflicting double your damage bonus is a lot stronger than inflicting double your weapon dice).

Even so, I think it's an OK feat. It's powerful for certain niche builds, and useful when you can't full attack.


Tends to come up as useful more often that one might think. Not everyone has a caster able to fling/teleport the BSF directly into full-attack position. Comes it quite handy when higher DR is an issue for characters that don't have the more optimum methods of bypassing DR available.

Unlike Clustered Shots and some other feats/abilities, Vital Strike has a wide range of uses for the imaginative. That flexibility is why they nerfed alchemist's bombs to only having 1 damage die.

It's handy if you have the spare feat - naturally, lots of characters won't. It's sure handy on Giant Melee Dude builds that find themselves packing big numbers of raw weapon damage dice, especially certain shapechanger/wild shape builds.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
I have an unhealthy fondness for Vital Strike, it even putting that aside I feel like the feat has an unnecessarily bad reputation. It features in my generalist combatant builds and a few of the more bizarre one-hit builds I've planned. People that discount it out of hand almost always fail to take into account how unreliable iterative attacks are at actually landing unless the deck is utterly stacked in your favor. It might be a trap feat for players that don't fully understand the game's math but it certainly has its place as a useful feat

If you're a martial, then you're probably going to stack attack bonuses to the point where you can hit most of the time even with -5.

And at high levels, you can be hasted most of the time, so if you have the option of a full attack, you'll get two attacks at your highest bonus (and inflicting double your damage bonus is a lot stronger than inflicting double your weapon dice).

Even so, I think it's an OK feat. It's powerful for certain niche builds, and useful when you can't full attack.

most well built martials will hit 90% of the enemies with even their last iritative at a -15


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I'd like to see that math in a seperate thread. It seems like it will be less reliant on 'well built martial' and more reliant on 'spells cast on a martial.'


Lady-J wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
I have an unhealthy fondness for Vital Strike, it even putting that aside I feel like the feat has an unnecessarily bad reputation. It features in my generalist combatant builds and a few of the more bizarre one-hit builds I've planned. People that discount it out of hand almost always fail to take into account how unreliable iterative attacks are at actually landing unless the deck is utterly stacked in your favor. It might be a trap feat for players that don't fully understand the game's math but it certainly has its place as a useful feat

If you're a martial, then you're probably going to stack attack bonuses to the point where you can hit most of the time even with -5.

And at high levels, you can be hasted most of the time, so if you have the option of a full attack, you'll get two attacks at your highest bonus (and inflicting double your damage bonus is a lot stronger than inflicting double your weapon dice).

Even so, I think it's an OK feat. It's powerful for certain niche builds, and useful when you can't full attack.

most well built martials will hit 90% of the enemies with even their last iterative at a -15

Considering most 16th level martials are packing a +17-+20 on their 4th iterative at best, they're likely to generally hit less than half the time (maybe 40%, more likely about 1-in-3). Some will hit far less often than that.


The issue I have with Vital Strike is that for most of the martials I have played, eventually the static bonuses I get from things like strength, power attack, weapon specialization, precise strike, etc. completely outweighs the damage I get from weapon dice.

Since my second iterative hit do much more damage than VS adds, it's a hard sell most of the time.


Aye, not disputing that at all. :)

It's the situations that come up where you have to remain mobile where it shines. Fighting a dragon that keeps zipping around or similar high-mobility enemies. Vital Strike is a standard action attack. If you're having to move more than very short distances.

It's situational to be sure. A lot of big nasty monsters (giants, titans, some dragons, jabberwocks, et al) pack as much as all three of the Vital Strike feats. Eating 24d6 (36d6 on a crit) plus the monster's bonuses sure makes for a rude awakening.


which is why generally unless your packing colossal size weapons or playing with mythic vital strike is generally not worth it


I let players use it with charge so it is good if you use big weapons.

I did experiment with a build where I would pot shot them until they came to me then I would draw and vital strike. It worked pretty good but was very feat intensive.


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Even using "only" Large weapons it can be worth it (GVS on a base 3d6 Large greatsword courtesy of Amiri the iconic barbarian jumps all the way to 12d6). A run-of-the-mill 2d6 greatsword still dishes out 8d6 on a GVS plus all the extra bonus damage. Extra 21 damage for a single swing has its uses. Sure, it's not the same raw damage from additional iteratives ... but character's aren't always going to get to land their iteratives.

Not every fight is going to just permit the BSF to wade into full-attack position and stay glued to the bad guy. Smarter opponents are certainly not going to just let them sit there and hew their legs off any longer than they have to. Ignoring nasty stuff that simply removes the BSF from the fight altogether such as maze, plane shift and so on, there's stuff that sees a lot more use in higher CR stat blocks such as Awesome Blow and its ugly, effective cousins.

Having blathered all of that, in general prioritize what usually works (iteratives) while picking up some flexibility options isn't going to hurt when the option exists.

The group is certainly going to be on the receiving end of the Vital Strike feats in more than a few campaigns!


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Vidmaster7 wrote:

I let players use it with charge so it is good if you use big weapons.

I did experiment with a build where I would pot shot them until they came to me then I would draw and vital strike. It worked pretty good but was very feat intensive.

It dovetails nicely with switch-hitting in my experience. You can use it on surprise rounds when you're stuck with only a single attack anyway too.

In some scenarios you may have access to enemy siege engines that you can commandeer and unleash on 'em. Apply the Vital Strike feats to weapons dealing multiple-dice base weapon damage is where it gets amusing. Among other things. :)


You have to compare vital strike to feats you could be taking.

Also, moving and attacking something at higher levels is really bad, because you are opened up to a full attack from the monster


CWheezy wrote:

You have to compare vital strike to feats you could be taking.

Also, moving and attacking something at higher levels is really bad, because you are opened up to a full attack from the monster

unless you have pounce then the monster will probably be dead


I thought somebody mentioned this, but now I can't find it, so I'll repost it for whoever it was:

For Warpriests, the Vital Strike feat chain is potentially very good, apart from the feat taxation nature of it (Vital Strike = VS, Improved Vital Strike = IVS, and Greater Vital Strike = GVS should really be 1 scaling feat like Power Attack and Combat Expertise are already -- say what you will, but at least Combat Expertise gets that right). Warpriests get to use their class level as their effective Base Attack Bonus when qualifying for their Bonus Combat Feats, so even though they are 3/4 BAB, they qualify for each part of the Vital Strike feat chain at the next Bonus Combat Feat after whenever a full BAB character would qualify for it, thereby outpacing their acquisition of iterative attacks. Also, being 3/4 BAB, they suffer more than a full BAB character from the penalty on each iterative attack after the first. Combining this with their Sacred Weapon scaling damage (assuming that their Sacred Weapon doesn't have greater base damage already), for a Medium Warpriest, you get (without and then with Enlarge Person or a similar effect):

Level∙∙∙∙∙∙∙Base Damage∙∙∙∙∙∙Enlarged Damage
1∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d8
6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d6
6+VS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙4d6
12∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d10∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8
12+IVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d10∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙6d8
15∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d6
15+GVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙8d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙12d6
20∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d8
20+GVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙8d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙12d8

(Note: Formatting tables on these messageboards is a real pain.)


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CWheezy wrote:
Also, moving and attacking something at higher levels is really bad, because you are opened up to a full attack from the monster

Depends on how tanky you are.

It's also possible to ready-action vital strike the enemy as he comes to you, then full attack after.


Made a Vital Strike Magus(Kensai). Yes he gives up some total damage to iteratives but at lvl 16 his Large bastard sword is doing 18d8 (30d8 on crit) +55 damage and weapon enhancements. That is not bad when sporting a 53+AC, strong saves, evasion, and great maneuverability.

Really like Vital Strike on some builds.


PCScipio wrote:
I think Toughness is under-rated, particularly on squishy casters; hit points never go out of style. Most people seem to consider it boring, but I don't find being conscious, and able to take actions, to be boring at all.

i mostly use it when i want to spend my favored class bonus on something other than hp- a skill for 2+ classes, or some race specific bonus.

it lets me be as sturdy as other builds for that class while getting the new bonus. i just cut out the hp parts mentally and just label it as 'the class that gives me favored class bonuses'.

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