So what're the least-optimal options these days?


Advice

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Dasrak wrote:
Both archetypes trade off the amazing Summon Monster spell-like ability for the Summon Nature's Ally spell-like ability, which is thematic but a pretty terrible power downgrade.

Though if you face anything that can take Ability Score damage those Stirges on Summon Nature's Ally I start to look pretty good...


Dasrak wrote:

Construct Rider Alchemist

Looks good on paper, if a bit punishing with reduced extracts, but it's not what the archetype is giving or taking away that's the problem. It turns out that neither the Alchemist nor the archetype have any means of repairing a damaged construct, making the archetype literally unplayable as a stand-alone class.

This isn't true. Spell Knowledge solves all your problems. Infernal healing, make whole, ect. If you don't want to do that, buy your mount horseshoes [boots] of the earth and have it stand in place for a while to heal.


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Not "Unplayable Garbage" strictly but a fun "Optimizing the Suboptimal" thought experiment I've been kicking around is "a completely blind character."

You can make this work, for example, by taking the Blind Zeal trait (which gives you blind-fight as a bonus feat, and makes you blind),be human, and take your first level in either Master of Many Styles or Unarmed Fighter, and your 2nd level in fighter (Unarmed if you took it at first). Then take your third and subsequent levels in anything.

So your feats would be:
1) Blind Fight (Trait), Blinded Blade Style (Bonus), Improved Blind-Fight, Blind Competence (Human)
2) Greater Blind Fight
3) Blind Master.

From level 3 onwards you have 30' of blindsight any time you're fighting. I'm just not sure where to take it from level 3.


Going by what my player's typically do, I don't think any of them would label something as "unplayable garbage". There are things they won't play, that's the ultimate judgement and it usually comes about from "I can do that better with X".

By that example, the Rogue is unplayable. No one has played a Rogue since the move from 3.5 to Pathfinder, unchained or otherwise. It's been universally shunned by anyone that shows any interest in playing the sneaky type of character. We've had sneaky bards, rangers, alchemists, sorcerers and even clerics... and lately investigators. Everything *but* a Rogue.

Want to double down, play a Rogue that opts for social archetypes/talents/feats. I had an NPC built this way that was played off and on by guest players back when I had more time and players.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Not "Unplayable Garbage" strictly but a fun "Optimizing the Suboptimal" thought experiment I've been kicking around is "a completely blind character."

You can make this work, for example, by taking the Blind Zeal trait (which gives you blind-fight as a bonus feat, and makes you blind),be human, and take your first level in either Master of Many Styles or Unarmed Fighter, and your 2nd level in fighter (Unarmed if you took it at first). Then take your third and subsequent levels in anything.

So your feats would be:
1) Blind Fight (Trait), Blinded Blade Style (Bonus), Improved Blind-Fight, Blind Competence (Human)
2) Greater Blind Fight
3) Blind Master.

From level 3 onwards you have 30' of blindsight any time you're fighting. I'm just not sure where to take it from level 3.

Cleric or Druid with the Cave Domain would get you tremorsense 30' at level 8 and 60' at level 14.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Wasn't a question of if it was an upgrade. It literally says it was created to be so.

The point was a rogue isn't unplayable garbage. Core included.

But you guys are going into a tangent. start a new thread and contest it. don't clog the whole thread with this argument.

To quote the O.P.

To clarify: I'm not talking deliberately-crippled builds, like the Wizard with Int so low that he can't cast spells. Just 'bad' stuff like the chained rogue that I'm going to try to make a fun and useful character out of (and succeed at)

It's not a tangent. It's a response to the main post.


Darkbridger wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Not "Unplayable Garbage" strictly but a fun "Optimizing the Suboptimal" thought experiment I've been kicking around is "a completely blind character."

You can make this work, for example, by taking the Blind Zeal trait (which gives you blind-fight as a bonus feat, and makes you blind),be human, and take your first level in either Master of Many Styles or Unarmed Fighter, and your 2nd level in fighter (Unarmed if you took it at first). Then take your third and subsequent levels in anything.

So your feats would be:
1) Blind Fight (Trait), Blinded Blade Style (Bonus), Improved Blind-Fight, Blind Competence (Human)
2) Greater Blind Fight
3) Blind Master.

From level 3 onwards you have 30' of blindsight any time you're fighting. I'm just not sure where to take it from level 3.

Cleric or Druid with the Cave Domain would get you tremorsense 30' at level 8 and 60' at level 14.

This is all incredible. I love everything about this.


Chess Pwn wrote:
avr wrote:
Sleuth investigator is a not-unreasonable dip for a swashbuckler. A second panacheoid pool which combines with the swashbucklers' and which has other means of being regained is actually pretty good.

It doesn't combine with the panache of the swash, your pool doesn't grow at all, just the ways you can restore it.

page 102 ACG wrote:
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)

That's interesting. I'm reading much the same, only without 'do not'.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

The PRD includes the "do not". Check the errata, maybe?


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I've always thought the Siege Mage was the most ridiculous archetype in the game. I mean yes, you're still a wizard and thus better than many classes, but the negatives (no cantrips and three opposition schools!) for very trivial bonuses to using siege weapons is just laughable. Plus, siege weapons themselves are not particular impressive compared to mid-level wizard spells, so the whole thing just doesn't make sense.


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avr wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
avr wrote:
Sleuth investigator is a not-unreasonable dip for a swashbuckler. A second panacheoid pool which combines with the swashbucklers' and which has other means of being regained is actually pretty good.

It doesn't combine with the panache of the swash, your pool doesn't grow at all, just the ways you can restore it.

page 102 ACG wrote:
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)
That's interesting. I'm reading much the same, only without 'do not'.

Cutting and pasting directly from the 2nd printing pdf, I have...

ACG wrote:

Grit, Luck, and Panache

Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonuses in their pools.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit points or panache points, and vice versa.
A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.


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Yeah, the errata reversed the ruling. That's why it's important to not trust stuff online, but to verify important things via errata doc/latest printing.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Yeah, the errata reversed the ruling. That's why it's important to not trust stuff online, but to verify important things via errata doc/latest printing.

Gods know which one they actually mean now though.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Yeah, the errata reversed the ruling. That's why it's important to not trust stuff online, but to verify important things via errata doc/latest printing.

Curiously your quotation and mine are slightly different. Mine says "twice their Charisma bonuses in their pools" and yours says "twice their Charisma bonus in their pool."


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Yeah, the errata reversed the ruling. That's why it's important to not trust stuff online, but to verify important things via errata doc/latest printing.

Gods know which one they actually mean now though.

It is confusing. The PRD is way overdue for an update, and the last printings that I got made many changes that were not listed in the errata for those books.

Dark Archive

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, playing a core rogue at this point (now that the UnRogue exists) seems like the bad version of "Let's use unplayable garbage" unless you're trying to do something really specific with one of the rogue talents the URogue doesn't get.

I mean, you can still make a case for playing a Chained Monk (I really kind of want to put together a Nornkith), but the URogue is pretty much a straight upgrade at no cost. for $40 ($10 for PDF) cash money.

Fixed that for you. :Þ


TiwazBlackhand wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, playing a core rogue at this point (now that the UnRogue exists) seems like the bad version of "Let's use unplayable garbage" unless you're trying to do something really specific with one of the rogue talents the URogue doesn't get.

I mean, you can still make a case for playing a Chained Monk (I really kind of want to put together a Nornkith), but the URogue is pretty much a straight upgrade at no cost. for $40 ($10 for PDF) cash money.

Fixed that for you. :Þ

Pathfinder Unchained is free on the PRD.


Gisher wrote:
TiwazBlackhand wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, playing a core rogue at this point (now that the UnRogue exists) seems like the bad version of "Let's use unplayable garbage" unless you're trying to do something really specific with one of the rogue talents the URogue doesn't get.

I mean, you can still make a case for playing a Chained Monk (I really kind of want to put together a Nornkith), but the URogue is pretty much a straight upgrade at no cost. for $40 ($10 for PDF) cash money.

Fixed that for you. :Þ
Pathfinder Unchained is free on the PRD.

And a few other places too...


The Sleuth honestly feels like it was unfinished.

Like, you trade out alchemy, which is essentially six levels of casting, for three deeds. And then another class feature in swift alchemy for another three deeds. Its scaling is COMPLETELY out of whack with the base class or any of the other investigator archetypes that trade out alchemy.

I feel like it bears mentioning that a very popular way to play Investigators is a one level dip into Inspired Blade Swashbucklers, who ALSO have three deeds and a couple bonus feats from their one level dip and keep their casting.


Not everything is front loaded though. Sure he's trading out alchemy. But 3 deeds for swift alchemy (which he likely isn't usi g because he didn't get alchemy as a class ability) is overbalanced to trade out the underbalanced start.


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Azten wrote:
Just remembered VMC monk. That is just terrible. At least you get something useful from VMC gunslinger....

VMC Monk is normally bad, but if you put it on an unarmed and unarmored Ninja build, it is actually useful -- gives you Improved Unarmed Strike with slightly delayed Monk progression (especially useful if you often can't use Sneak Attack), gives you back Evasion and eventually Improved Evasion (which the Ninja doesn't get), and eventually gives you Ki that stacks with the Ninja's Ki Pool (although unfortunately you do need to be Lawful to get the full benefit, and even if you are, this takes a long time to come online).

In comparison, VMC Gunslinger does nothing that you couldn't do with normal feats, and fewer of them, or alternatively a single level Gunslinger dip (or in some cases an archetype of your primary class or some other class you are dipping into), except that at very high levels it gets you some low-mid-level Gunslinger Deeds.

For completeness, VMC Witch gets you Hexes that are stuck at low level for very long stretches of your career, thus making them for practical purposes unusable (some of them might be slightly usable if they are self-only or party buffing, but they will still be pretty bad).

For more completeness, here is another VMC that is normally bad, but can conditionally be made decent: VMC Alchemist. The Bombs feature is normally bad because you don't get the real Alchemist's Throw Anything class feature (and the Throw Anything feat isn't good enough), and the Swift Poisoning and Poison Immunity abilities come online too late, thus tipping the rating to bad overall, even though the Alchemy ability is good and Mutagen is decent although coming online rather late. BUT, the Underground Chemist Rogue archetype fills in the missing ability from the Throw Anything class feature (doesn't fill in the ability that is in common with the feat of the same name) with the Chemical Weapons alternate class feature at 2nd level, thus making the Bombs feature usable like on a real Alchemist, although unfortunately the Underground Chemist's selection of Alchemist Discoveries doesn't include Bomb or Mutagen discoveries, so it's only passable, not great. On a tangent from this, the standard Rogue ability traded out for this is Evasion, meaning that Underground Chemist Rogue doesn't have any class features completely shut down by wearing Heavy Armor, only Armor Check Penalties applied to skills, so if you get Heavy Armor Proficiency from 2 feats or (preferably) a martial dip, you're not totally hosing yourself by using Heavy Armor. Gogo mad bombing Hellknight Rogue . . . .

graystone wrote:
Dasrak wrote:

Construct Rider Alchemist

Looks good on paper, if a bit punishing with reduced extracts, but it's not what the archetype is giving or taking away that's the problem. It turns out that neither the Alchemist nor the archetype have any means of repairing a damaged construct, making the archetype literally unplayable as a stand-alone class.
This isn't true. Spell Knowledge solves all your problems. Infernal healing, make whole, ect. If you don't want to do that, buy your mount horseshoes [boots] of the earth and have it stand in place for a while to heal.

Not sure if Infernal Healing qualifies as something that would work on a Construct, but even if it does, you'll still be waiting quite a while before you can use it, since the Sorcerer/Wizard spell you select has to be 2 levels lower than the highest level of extract you can prepare -- you need to be 7th level before you can use this, or 10th level if it isn't good enough and you need Make Whole.

Related to the above, I just noticed that the Spell Knowledge Discovery is awfully weak compared to the conceptually equivalent Spell Blending Magus Arcana, which lets you pick 1 spell of the highest level you can cast or 2 spells of at least 1 level lower.


LittleMissNaga wrote:
Didn't know Medium was considered bad at all, but I've already done that one and had a great time of it.

You mean a Medium that wasn't just 100% a Champion-channeler? 'cause I've looked at the Medium class and I love the flavor! A character that can fill a different niche each day!

But then, I took a step back and realized that this would severely turn it into a Master of None rather than a Jack of All Trades. I wish it was more viable to channel anything but a Champion. Most spirits just seem to turn you into worse versions of another class.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Not sure if Infernal Healing qualifies as something that would work on a Construct, but even if it does, you'll still be waiting quite a while before you can use it, since the Sorcerer/Wizard spell you select has to be 2 levels lower than the highest level of extract you can prepare -- you need to be 7th level before you can use this, or 10th level if it isn't good enough and you need Make Whole.

Just look at:

rapid repair: "The targeted construct gains fast healing 5."

Infernal Healing: "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1."

Construct type: "A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality."

If rapid repair works, infernal healing does too.

As to level gained, that really wasn't my point. Dasrak wrote: "neither the Alchemist nor the archetype have any means of repairing a damaged construct, making the archetype literally unplayable as a stand-alone class". That was wrong as they CAN gain spells that heal constructs.


^They can, but not for the 1st 6 levels, which is a LONG time to wait for something so fundamental. Also, to get Infernal Healing at 7th level instead of 8th level, you have to use a feat on Extra Discovery, because Discoveries come normally at even levels. Makes it almost tempting to dip 1 level of Wizard early, and then retrain it to another level of Alchemist later when you can finally get Infernal Healing or Make Whole onto the Alchemist list with Spell Knowledge.

Silver Crusade

the David wrote:
The universalist wizard who uses Hand of the Apprentice to swing a greatsword across the battlefield.

Are you kidding? I love building Half-Orc Universalists who hurl their great axes. It's come in quite handy for clearing trash many times.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^They can, but not for the 1st 6 levels, which is a LONG time to wait for something so fundamental. Also, to get Infernal Healing at 7th level instead of 8th level, you have to use a feat on Extra Discovery, because Discoveries come normally at even levels. Makes it almost tempting to dip 1 level of Wizard early, and then retrain it to another level of Alchemist later when you can finally get Infernal Healing or Make Whole onto the Alchemist list with Spell Knowledge.

LOL That's why I said my point was that they CAN do it, not how good it was or when.

The easiest method of healing is the boots [5000gp] or wand of infernal healing [750gp] + Arcane Training.


TiwazBlackhand wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, playing a core rogue at this point (now that the UnRogue exists) seems like the bad version of "Let's use unplayable garbage" unless you're trying to do something really specific with one of the rogue talents the URogue doesn't get.

I mean, you can still make a case for playing a Chained Monk (I really kind of want to put together a Nornkith), but the URogue is pretty much a straight upgrade at no cost. for $40 ($10 for PDF) cash money.

Fixed that for you. :Þ

There's more to Pathfinder than PFS.


Nixitur wrote:
LittleMissNaga wrote:
Didn't know Medium was considered bad at all, but I've already done that one and had a great time of it.

You mean a Medium that wasn't just 100% a Champion-channeler? 'cause I've looked at the Medium class and I love the flavor! A character that can fill a different niche each day!

But then, I took a step back and realized that this would severely turn it into a Master of None rather than a Jack of All Trades. I wish it was more viable to channel anything but a Champion. Most spirits just seem to turn you into worse versions of another class.

Yes, actually. I only recall 'recruiting' a champion spirit once over the course of 17 levels. Mostly I favoured the marshal as my 'default', and hierophant whenever the issue of the marshal's awkward location-availability came up (now if you'd specified a guardian-focused medium was bad, I'd have been totally on board. Guardian is terrible... I oughta try building a medium who focuses on it).

Wasn't that hard to be decent with. Acceptable, but not focused charisma (because let's be honest, I'm not a primary caster, or even a real secondary one), focus on spells that don't need saves, because the DCs aren't exactly going to be spectacular, make sure combat stats are decent (Str started at 15, but I was up to 24 later on, and that was enough to hit basically anything I needed to hit), burn a feat on heavy armour, and I got a martial weapon from racial weapon familiarity (half orcs are great).

...But honestly, the biggest draws were the seance boon that let everyone pick their own bonus (we typically had two archmages, one champion, and one hierophant), and the marshal spirit's ability to surge other people's rolls. Take a taboo, maybe channel a weaker spirit (because marshal is a bit front-loaded, and the lesser power was the only one I really cared about until 17th level), and you've got plenty of surges per day.

The GM said the words "Thanks to Ausk's surge, that's a hit/succesful save" many, many times over the course of that campaign, and everyone loved it.


Fromper wrote:
Or did you mean using magic staves, rather than quarterstaves as a weapon?

Yes, but I'd consider using them as melee weapons as one step into making them useful.


Saldiven wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • I have to disagree a bit with the two points you raise as making the archetype bad.

    The number of times this cleric will be the target of one of those spell effect types from a qualifying caster of the character's career is vanishingly small. The archetype will almost certainly be on a caster type cleric, and is unlikely to be bunched up with the melee type characters that are the usual target for such spells. When it comes up, yeah, it'll suck. However, I have played in entire campaigns where a character I was running was targeted by such effects only once or twice.

    The -2 to Will is compensated by the fact that it's the class's strong save using it's highest related characteristic. At first level, even with the -2, such a cleric will likely have a +4 against such effects. If that isn't good enough, there are multiple traits that grant a +2 save vs mind-affecting effects that'll balance it out.

    The archetype isn't super powerful, being more an interesting and flavorful addition, but it's hardly garbage.

    (Now, if those same two penalties were applied to a beat-stick melee type who typically already has crappy Will saves and is also typically the target for mind-affecting spells, it would be a different matter.)

    Channel the Void doesn't even work.

    Spoiler:

    This is similar to channeling negative energy, but instead of healing undead, this blast of energy harms and devours living beings, corporeal non-skeletal undead, and constructs crafted from flesh (such as flesh golems). This is not negative energy damage; instead, the damage manifests in the form of wounds from supernatural deterioration and rot. A creature that would take damage from this energy can attempt a Fortitude save to halve the damage, rather than a Will save. At 8th level, a creature that both fails the Fortitude save and would be killed or destroyed by this effect is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

    Issue is Undead or Constructs ignore fort saves unless it works on objects. So this doesn't even work. Should have kept it a Will save.

    Shadow Lodge

    I want to say I tried to point that out when the book was released, and the authors,. . . neglected to comment.

    It could be read though that the line " A creature that would take damage from this energy" might be a stipulation that Undead and Constructs, (who would then not be taking damage), do not get an option to make a Fort Save instead of a Will Save. Its reaching, though.

    Quote:
    This is not negative energy damage; instead, the damage manifests in the form of wounds from supernatural deterioration and rot.

    Also, so it's not Negative Energy Damage, but it looks exactly like Negative Energy Damage? :P

    Silver Crusade

    LittleMissNaga wrote:

    Yes, actually. I only recall 'recruiting' a champion spirit once over the course of 17 levels. Mostly I favoured the marshal as my 'default', and hierophant whenever the issue of the marshal's awkward location-availability came up (now if you'd specified a guardian-focused medium was bad, I'd have been totally on board. Guardian is terrible... I oughta try building a medium who focuses on it).

    Wasn't that hard to be decent with. Acceptable, but not focused charisma (because let's be honest, I'm not a primary caster, or even a real secondary one), focus on spells that don't need saves, because the DCs aren't exactly going to be spectacular, make sure combat stats are decent (Str started at 15, but I was up to 24 later on, and that was enough to hit basically anything I needed to hit), burn a feat on heavy armour, and I got a martial weapon from racial weapon familiarity (half orcs are great).

    ...But honestly, the biggest draws were the seance boon that let everyone pick their own bonus (we typically had two archmages, one champion, and one hierophant), and the marshal spirit's ability to surge other people's rolls. Take a taboo, maybe channel a weaker spirit (because marshal is a bit front-loaded, and the lesser power was the only one I really cared about until 17th level), and you've got plenty of surges per day.

    The GM said the words "Thanks to Ausk's surge, that's a hit/succesful save" many, many times over the course of that campaign, and everyone loved it.

    Or you could have played a generic bard to get pretty much the same combat ability, but with more skills, more spells, better buffs, and used Gallant Inspiration to buff people after they miss instead of the marshal's spirit surge, except that would be 2d4 instead of 1d6, so even that's slightly better.

    The marshal spirit is roughly 2/3 as effective as an average bard, in much the same way that the hierophant spirit is 2/3 of a cleric, the archmage is 2/3 of a wizard, and the trickster is 2/3 of a rogue. Even if you optimize the heck out of these spirits, they're still not as good at their roles as an average, unoptimized PC made from the Core Rulebook classes. The champion's the only spirit that you can focus on to make a PC that's truly effective in its role.

    As I said in an earlier post in this thread, I don't think anything is "unplayable", as you prove with your marshal focused medium, but the medium's clearly subpar.


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    Fromper wrote:

    Or you could have played a generic bard to get pretty much the same combat ability, but with more skills, more spells, better buffs, and used Gallant Inspiration to buff people after they miss instead of the marshal's spirit surge, except that would be 2d4 instead of 1d6, so even that's slightly better.

    The marshal spirit is roughly 2/3 as effective as an average bard, in much the same way that the hierophant spirit is 2/3 of a cleric, the archmage is 2/3 of a wizard, and the trickster is 2/3 of a rogue....

    Ah, but a generic bard can't spontaneously turn into a cleric and raise the team cleric the day after she died, then turn into a wizard the next day and teleport us to the wizard's backup spellbook the day later because the wizard's spellbook was stolen in the night, then turn a champion and spontaneously develop the weapon proficiency necessary to wield the exotic ghost touch weapon we just found for long enough to beat up that ghost we need to fight, then use non-spirit related powers to eat and banish every haunt in the building one by one... and then go back to being a buffer when it's all done.


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    Someone in the party could have easily put enough into UMD to use a scroll of raise dead for the cleric by the time the medium would gain access to that spell.
    Again, the level that teleport comes into play for a medium the wizard is a fool to not have duplicates with him and for letting it get stolen in the first place.
    So by spontaneously turning into a champion you mean knowing ahead of time that that day you'll need exotic weapon proficiency in X weapon and are going to be fighting ghosts.

    So I mean I guess if you have an incompetent party the ability to be something new each day can be useful. But I agree with Fromper that the medium that doesn't dedicate to champion could easily have been better with a different character. Being an evangelist cleric with the travel domain is able to do most if not all of those things too.


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    Starbuck_II wrote:
    Channel the Void doesn't even work.

    It's a case of specifics trumping general. Normally, it's be immune to it but because this specific ability changes that, it works. It's like how a winter witch can deal cold damage to immune creatures. Channel the Void can target fort because it says it does, and undead/constructs can save, because it says so.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Starbuck_II wrote:


    Channel the Void doesn't even work.

    Issue is Undead or Constructs ignore fort saves unless it works on objects. So this doesn't even work. Should have kept it a Will save.

    The ability explicitly says that it damages constructs crafted from flesh, so that overrides the general rule about constructs being able to ignore damage from abilities like these.

    Graystone wrote:
    As to level gained, that really wasn't my point. Dasrak wrote: "neither the Alchemist nor the archetype have any means of repairing a damaged construct, making the archetype literally unplayable as a stand-alone class". That was wrong as they CAN gain spells that heal constructs.

    I was actually unaware of that feat, so I guess there is an option for level 7+ Construct Riders to make this archetype function. As UnArcaneElection notes, though, the point still stands for level 1-6.


    Starbuck_II wrote:


    Channel the Void doesn't even work.
    ** spoiler omitted **...

    So, because there's a rules issue with the ability to affect undead and constructs, the entire ability "doesn't even work?"

    I think you're overstating things, there.


    Dasrak wrote:
    I was actually unaware of that feat

    Discovery. The alchemist can be an arcane caster now.

    Dasrak wrote:
    As UnArcaneElection notes, though, the point still stands for level 1-6.

    1-6, wand of infernal healing [750gp] + Arcane Training is the easiest way to heal without multiclassing. From 3-4th you can start to afford boots of earth to heal too.

    At no level are you unable to heal your construct if you build right. Rich parents [full wand of infernal healing] + Arcane Training = 1st level construct healing...


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    Chess Pwn wrote:

    Someone in the party could have easily put enough into UMD to use a scroll of raise dead for the cleric by the time the medium would gain access to that spell.

    Again, the level that teleport comes into play for a medium the wizard is a fool to not have duplicates with him and for letting it get stolen in the first place.
    So by spontaneously turning into a champion you mean knowing ahead of time that that day you'll need exotic weapon proficiency in X weapon and are going to be fighting ghosts.

    So I mean I guess if you have an incompetent party the ability to be something new each day can be useful. But I agree with Fromper that the medium that doesn't dedicate to champion could easily have been better with a different character. Being an evangelist cleric with the travel domain is able to do most if not all of those things too.

    Cleric is cool, certainly. Party already had one. Perhaps playing a second cleric would have been simply better, but that's kind of a disappointing choice. Disappointing is the opposite of the goal here. We want fun.

    The original point wasn't to prove medium (or anything) to be the best. It was to take 'unplayable' things and be useful and fun with them.

    Played a non-champion medium. Killed many enemies, provided much support, had lots of utility. Was I useful in that campaign? Yes. Was it fun? Yes.

    Mission accomplished.


    graystone wrote:
    From 3-4th you can start to afford boots of earth to heal too.

    I can't find any boots/horseshoes of earth anywhere, what are they from and what do they do?

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

    I've threatened my regular GM with making a crossbow specialist who uses Prone Shooter in every fight. (First round action? "Free action, I drop prone." Every time.)


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    Problem with the medium is largely that it relies on GM permission to actually channel the spirit you want with alarming regularity. If the PCs are traveling cross country on horseback and decide to camp for the night in a clearing hundreds of miles from civilization, you're basically reliant on "there's a sacred grove near here" or "there was a battle fought here" else you can't access the majority of your class features.

    Certainly the GM should cooperate, but I'm sure we've all known times where the GM was uncooperative.


    Nixitur wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    From 3-4th you can start to afford boots of earth to heal too.
    I can't find any boots/horseshoes of earth anywhere, what are they from and what do they do?

    5,000 gold item that allows you you plant your feet as a move actin to gain fast healing 1. Also gives a +4 to CMD vs re-position / bull rush and trips.

    It's from Inner sea gods


    Starbuck_II wrote:
    Saldiven wrote:
    UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • I have to disagree a bit with the two points you raise as making the archetype bad.

    The number of times this cleric will be the target of one of those spell effect types from a qualifying caster of the character's career is vanishingly small. The archetype will almost certainly be on a caster type cleric, and is unlikely to be bunched up with the melee type characters that are the usual target for such spells. When it comes up, yeah, it'll suck. However, I have played in entire campaigns where a character I was running was targeted by such effects only once or twice.

    The -2 to Will is compensated by the fact that it's the class's strong save using it's highest related characteristic. At first level, even with the -2, such a cleric will likely have a +4 against such effects. If that isn't good enough, there are multiple traits that grant a +2 save vs mind-affecting effects that'll balance it out.

    The archetype isn't super powerful, being more an interesting and flavorful addition, but it's hardly garbage.

    (Now, if those same two penalties were applied to a beat-stick melee type who typically already has crappy Will saves and is also typically the target for mind-affecting spells, it would be a different matter.)

    Channel the Void doesn't even work.

    ** spoiler omitted **...

    Specific > General.

    The ability specifically calls out that it does affect undead and constructs that meet the relevant conditions.


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    PossibleCabbage wrote:

    Problem with the medium is largely that it relies on GM permission to actually channel the spirit you want with alarming regularity. If the PCs are traveling cross country on horseback and decide to camp for the night in a clearing hundreds of miles from civilization, you're basically reliant on "there's a sacred grove near here" or "there was a battle fought here" else you can't access the majority of your class features.

    Certainly the GM should cooperate, but I'm sure we've all known times where the GM was uncooperative.

    True even with the FAQ

    Quote:
    As the class says, you can channel from any appropriate location, and the favored locations are just a place to start. There might be times where you don’t have access to all six legends, but a medium, either PC or NPC, should generally be able to access a legend if they can come up with a good conceptual tie between the legend and a location he can find or even set up himself. For instance, a medium could go hunt a deer and then use that location to channel a champion spirit of a legendary hunter.

    You're still at the GM's mercy if you want to channel a specific spirit especially if you are pressed for time.


    graystone wrote:
    Dasrak wrote:
    I was actually unaware of that feat

    Discovery. The alchemist can be an arcane caster now.

    Dasrak wrote:
    As UnArcaneElection notes, though, the point still stands for level 1-6.

    1-6, wand of infernal healing [750gp] + Arcane Training is the easiest way to heal without multiclassing. From 3-4th you can start to afford boots of earth to heal too.

    At no level are you unable to heal your construct if you build right. Rich parents [full wand of infernal healing] + Arcane Training = 1st level construct healing...

    If you have to take a trap trait to make Construct Rider Alchemist work at early levels, this archetype has serious problems. Once you have spent (or been robbed of) the gold from Rich Parents, you have a completely dead trait, and last time I checked the retraining rules don't provide for retraining a trait (if they did, it might not be so bad).


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    UnArcaneElection wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Dasrak wrote:
    I was actually unaware of that feat

    Discovery. The alchemist can be an arcane caster now.

    Dasrak wrote:
    As UnArcaneElection notes, though, the point still stands for level 1-6.

    1-6, wand of infernal healing [750gp] + Arcane Training is the easiest way to heal without multiclassing. From 3-4th you can start to afford boots of earth to heal too.

    At no level are you unable to heal your construct if you build right. Rich parents [full wand of infernal healing] + Arcane Training = 1st level construct healing...

    If you have to take a trap trait to make Construct Rider Alchemist work at early levels, this archetype has serious problems. Once you have spent (or been robbed of) the gold from Rich Parents, you have a completely dead trait, and last time I checked the retraining rules don't provide for retraining a trait (if they did, it might not be so bad).

    Not to mention the Arcane Training alternate racial trait locks you into the half-elf race and prevents you from actually having alchemist as your favored class.


    ^Good catch.


    if it wasnt such garbage theres a construct mod that adds a heart to the construct so it can get healing from positive energy but its like 35k and gets shut off by negative energy/necomany effects(temporarily) which isnt to bad but it gets instantly destroyed if the construct gets crit which means 35k down the drain at about a 10-15% chance each combat and it doesnt matter if its a boss or a level 1 mook


    The Craft Construct feat which a Construct Rider gets at level 4 does let you repair a construct. It's a pain but possible:

    UM wrote:
    Failing that, a crafter can repair a construct with the Craft Construct feat. When repairing a construct, its master spends 100 gp per Hit Die of the construct, and then makes a skill check as if he were crafting the construct with a DC of 5 less than the DC for crafting that construct. With a success, the construct regains 1d6 hit points per Hit Die of the construct. Completing a repair takes 1 day per 1,000 gp spent on the repair (minimum of 1 day).

    Though normally this sounds like you want UMD and a wand.

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