So what're the least-optimal options these days?


Advice

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The Mad Comrade wrote:
I am refuting claims that the core rogue "sucks". It doesn't anymore than the Fighter BSF in the group. Classes "suck" mostly when the expectation is for everyone to support themselves rather than enhancing each other's strengths while shoring up each other's weaknesses

the fighter does his job of consistent good damage with decent survivability on his own. fighting is the thing the fighter is good at.

thing is, what really is the rogue bringing to enhance other strengths and which weaknesses does he cover for others?
It sounds like he needed 2 peoples support to do decent damage. That seems to be a drain of other strengths.
and he offers skills, but any 6 skill class probably could have covered all the skills the rogue was covering, while actually bringing stuff to cover a weakness or enhance a strength.

so sure, just like the expert or aristocrat can be playable in parties so can the rogue. But it's really easy for a party to overshadow a rogue by accident and it's hard for the rogue to keep up in some parties.


You guys are kind of getting off target. Also just play un-rogue.


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Yeah, playing a core rogue at this point (now that the UnRogue exists) seems like the bad version of "Let's use unplayable garbage" unless you're trying to do something really specific with one of the rogue talents the URogue doesn't get.

I mean, you can still make a case for playing a Chained Monk (I really kind of want to put together a Nornkith), but the URogue is pretty much a straight upgrade at no cost.


Wasn't a question of if it was an upgrade. It literally says it was created to be so.

The point was a rogue isn't unplayable garbage. Core included.


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Cavall wrote:

Wasn't a question of if it was an upgrade. It literally says it was created to be so.

The point was a rogue isn't unplayable garbage. Core included.

But you guys are going into a tangent. start a new thread and contest it. don't clog the whole thread with this argument.


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Some I haven't seen most of the following mentioned yet:

  • True Primitive Barbarian. Illiteracy even if you gain levels in another class. Bad weapon proficiencies with no compensation. Lose Fast Movement for only 1 Favored Terrain.
  • Untouchable Bloodrager. Would have been okay if you could get some way to accept helpful spells from your allies.
  • Strangler Brawler. Actually would have been okay if only it didn't forget to give you Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at 1st level.
  • Cloistered Cleric (would have been pretty good if it had any decent amount of relation to the D&D 3.5 Variant Cleric of the same name).
  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter. Inferior to Myrmidarch Magus in almost every way, and not much better in the couple of areas where it pulls slightly ahead.
  • Most Fighter archetypes that trade out Weapon Training, including those that have a pseudo-Weapon-Training that has the wrong wording to count as Weapon Training for feat prerequisite purposes. (By the way, this includes Crossbowman, mentioned by other people above, but also many others.) Martial Master is an exception -- losing Weapon Training still hurts hard, but at least you get Martial Flexibility, which is arguably worth the trade or at least close to worthwhile.
  • VMC Gunslinger. Worst. VMC. Ever.
  • Sleuth Investigator. Give up Alchemy for . . . ?
  • Spiritualist Investigator. See Sleuth Investigator above.
  • Overwhelming Soul Kineticist. At least it's not as bad as . . .
  • Psychokineticist. SERIOUSLY hose your Wisdom and Will Saves by using your powers -- better stick with Overwhelming Soul instead, if you are one of those types of creatures that can't use normal Kineticist. Also gain vulnerability to all Emotion effects that would hose any other Occult class' spellcasting. Also lose all Kineticist abilities if you try to do anything about this.
  • Armored Battlemage Magus (would have actually been okay if it didn't trade out Spell Combat entirely and didn't prevent you from using your Arcane Pool to enchant your weapon).
  • Greensting Slayer Magus. Gamble an Arcane Point for a chance at a Sneak Attack.
  • Medium. Oh, you say above it's actually okay if you stick with the Champion Spirit? Great . . . except . . . what am I supposed to do if am in an area where it isn't available? And why did we never get a Harrowed Medium archetype like the playtest version was going for?
  • Pre-Unchained Monk with no archetype.
  • Monk of the Healing Hand at near-Epic levels. Worst. Capstone. Ever.
  • Gray Paladin. This must have been a plot to punish all of us who wanted Paladin-like classes (Paladinoids?) other than Antipaladins of an alignment other than Lawful Good.
  • Prophet of Kalistrade prestige class. You have to act like a Ferengi, but what you get in return isn't all that great, especially the subpar spellcasting.
  • Rage Prophet prestige class. Shoots itself in the foot for doing what it is supposed to do by not progressing your Rage and giving you sub-par spellcasting (including caster level) progression, as well as by exacting the awful Rage Power Tax of Moment of Clarity that is required to get in, but which won't work right for the most desperate situations in which you would need it (like, I'm about to get dropped and need to use it to cast a Cure-series spell on myself). This one should have been made into a base class: maybe 3/4 BAB, 6/9 spellcasting, d8, moderately rich class features; maybe full BAB, 4/9 spellcasting, d10, rich class features; maybe even both (Raging Prophet and Prophetic Rager, respectively).
  • Pre-Unchained Rogue. Actually mentioned above several times before, but included for completeness.
  • Shadowdancer prestige class. Supposed to be one of those sneaky types, but shoots itself in the foot by not progressing your Sneak Attack.
  • Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer (maybe would have been okay if it didn't trade out the 9th level Bloodline Power that you need to be strong enough or tough enough to play your role).
  • Brute Vigilante. Actually mentioned above several times before, but included for completeness.
  • VMC Witch. Would be the worst VMC ever if not for VMC Gunslinger.
  • Several of the older Wizard archetypes (lose Cantrips and/or get a LOAD of Opposition Schools, in return for 1-trick poniness).


Sleuth investigator is a not-unreasonable dip for a swashbuckler. A second panacheoid pool which combines with the swashbucklers' and which has other means of being regained is actually pretty good.

Shadowdancer is bad for rogues but surprisingly good for some full BAB types. A paladin or barbarian shadowdancer may not make any sense but it can work.

I'm sure I saw a guide on how to use the elder mythos cultist effectively.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Some I haven't seen most of the following mentioned yet:
  • True Primitive Barbarian. Illiteracy even if you gain levels in another class. Bad weapon proficiencies with no compensation. Lose Fast Movement for only 1 Favored Terrain.
  • Untouchable Bloodrager. Would have been okay if you could get some way to accept helpful spells from your allies.
  • Strangler Brawler. Actually would have been okay if only it didn't forget to give you Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at 1st level.
  • Cloistered Cleric (would have been pretty good if it had any decent amount of relation to the D&D 3.5 Variant Cleric of the same name).
  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter. Inferior to Myrmidarch Magus in almost every way, and not much better in the couple of areas where it pulls slightly ahead.
  • Most Fighter archetypes that trade out Weapon Training, including those that have a pseudo-Weapon-Training that has the wrong wording to count as Weapon Training for feat prerequisite purposes. (By the way, this includes Crossbowman, mentioned by other people above, but also many others.) Martial Master is an exception -- losing Weapon Training still hurts hard, but at least you get Martial Flexibility, which is arguably worth the trade or at least close to worthwhile.
  • VMC Gunslinger. Worst. VMC. Ever.
  • Sleuth Investigator. Give up Alchemy for . . . ?
  • Spiritualist Investigator. See Sleuth Investigator above.
  • Overwhelming Soul Kineticist. At least it's not as bad as . . .
  • Psychokineticist. SERIOUSLY hose your Wisdom and Will Saves by using your powers -- better stick with Overwhelming Soul instead, if you are one of those types of creatures that can't use normal Kineticist. Also gain vulnerability to all Emotion effects that would hose any other Occult class' spellcasting. Also lose all Kineticist abilities if you try to do anything about
...

Good list however to be fair most of these are just bad not truly unplayable I guess you would have to define what you mean by unplayable. nothing is truly unplayable I don't suppose.

These are some sub par options however.

(except maybe brute vigilante you might get kicked form table when you kill the party accidentally.)


UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • The penalty is pretty bad but the confusion and insanity aspects are at best benign. Since literally everything is based around Charisma for you, there isn't much stopping you from pumping Charisma as high as possible and outright ignoring Wisdom (which makes sense, since you are unhinged), so the penalty should eventually be offset by the inflated Charisma bonus. Also, you channel hurts nearly everything. You lose a few dice of damage, but gain so much more effectiveness.

    Also, Ill say this again. Grey Paladin is a paladin spy. It was a bad name choice, it is an entirely functional archetype in an intrigue heavy game where a standard paladin simply cannot work.


    Vidmaster7 wrote:

    Good list however to be fair most of these are just bad not truly unplayable I guess you would have to define what you mean by unplayable. nothing is truly unplayable I don't suppose.

    These are some sub par options however.

    (except maybe brute vigilante you might get kicked form table when you kill the party accidentally.)

    It's hard to find things that are fully unplayable, but the ones I listed are pretty bad or at least have serious defects. But Brute Vigilante is probably the worst overall -- several of the others don't work right, but at least you have something left, even if it is only weapon proficiency, skill ranks, and BAB, and unlike Brute Vigilante, won't cause you to kill your own party.

    I could have sworn to having seen a Barbarian archetype (way before Ultimate Intrigue) that could cause you to kill your party, but I can't remember what it is. I may be getting mixed up with D&D 3.5 (Frenzied Berserker?).

    Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
    UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • The penalty is pretty bad but the confusion and insanity aspects are at best benign. Since literally everything is based around Charisma for you, there isn't much stopping you from pumping Charisma as high as possible and outright ignoring Wisdom (which makes sense, since you are unhinged), so the penalty should eventually be offset by the inflated Charisma bonus. Also, you channel hurts nearly everything. You lose a few dice of damage, but gain so much more effectiveness.

    Between this and Maddening Gaze, it isn't too hard to get you to have a high risk of killing your party.

    Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
    Also, Ill say this again. Grey Paladin is a paladin spy. It was a bad name choice, it is an entirely functional archetype in an intrigue heavy game where a standard paladin simply cannot work.

    That may be, but it still trades out an awful lot and gains only a little in return.


    UnArcaneElection wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:

    Good list however to be fair most of these are just bad not truly unplayable I guess you would have to define what you mean by unplayable. nothing is truly unplayable I don't suppose.

    These are some sub par options however.

    (except maybe brute vigilante you might get kicked form table when you kill the party accidentally.)

    It's hard to find things that are fully unplayable, but the ones I listed are pretty bad or at least have serious defects. But Brute Vigilante is probably the worst overall -- several of the others don't work right, but at least you have something left, even if it is only weapon proficiency, skill ranks, and BAB, and unlike Brute Vigilante, won't cause you to kill your own party.

    I could have sworn to having seen a Barbarian archetype (way before Ultimate Intrigue) that could cause you to kill your party, but I can't remember what it is. I may be getting mixed up with D&D 3.5 (Frenzied Berserker?).

    No your right there is one that lets you rage longer but you are confused the whole time I think it was based on the frenzied berzerker in fact.


    Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
    UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • The penalty is pretty bad but the confusion and insanity aspects are at best benign. Since literally everything is based around Charisma for you, there isn't much stopping you from pumping Charisma as high as possible and outright ignoring Wisdom (which makes sense, since you are unhinged), so the penalty should eventually be offset by the inflated Charisma bonus. Also, you channel hurts nearly everything. You lose a few dice of damage, but gain so much more effectiveness.

    Confusion/insanity: buy Azata's Whimsy, take Fortunate trait and cast Unbreakable Heart if needed. Done.

    Instead of Fortunate maybe take Rivethun Adherent: profit.
    Deathtouched trait offsets -2 saves: Take star sub-domain and get a +2 to those saves.
    Take a level of oracle: get everything to fall under charisma... More profit.

    Just have to find a non-undead/non-paladin way to get cha to fort...

    EDIT: Instead of stars, you can take Insanity Subdomain: Insane Focus (Su): Standard action touch for immunity to confusion for 1 minute, 3 + your Cha modifier/day.


    Nice list. Some good ideas that I'm sure I'll enjoy.

    Didn't know Medium was considered bad at all, but I've already done that one and had a great time of it.


    graystone wrote:
    Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
    UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • The penalty is pretty bad but the confusion and insanity aspects are at best benign. Since literally everything is based around Charisma for you, there isn't much stopping you from pumping Charisma as high as possible and outright ignoring Wisdom (which makes sense, since you are unhinged), so the penalty should eventually be offset by the inflated Charisma bonus. Also, you channel hurts nearly everything. You lose a few dice of damage, but gain so much more effectiveness.

    Confusion/insanity: buy Azata's Whimsy, take Fortunate trait and cast Unbreakable Heart if needed. Done.

    Instead of Fortunate maybe take Rivethun Adherent: profit.
    Deathtouched trait offsets -2 saves: Take star sub-domain and get a +2 to those saves.
    Take a level of oracle: get everything to fall under charisma... More profit.

    Just have to find a non-undead/non-paladin way to get cha to fort...

    EDIT: Instead of stars, you can take Insanity Subdomain: Insane Focus (Su): Standard action touch for immunity to confusion for 1 minute, 3 + your Cha modifier/day.

    anti paladin, or oracle


    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.


    Lady-J wrote:
    anti paladin, or oracle

    I count paladin with anti-paladin. maybe if I can find a CN version.

    Is there an oracle way to get cha to fort? I can't think of one off hand.


    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.

    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.


    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.

    Oh that is silly so if the DM just said Yeah Sure every time there would be no worries?

    Technically all classes are only playable as the DM allows.


    graystone wrote:
    Lady-J wrote:
    anti paladin, or oracle

    I count paladin with anti-paladin. maybe if I can find a CN version.

    Is there an oracle way to get cha to fort? I can't think of one off hand.

    anti paladin and paladin are not the same, insitutor can potentially be cn with the channeling of a cn outsider if you can convince your dm to change your code to the outsider you want to channel. and oracle can get cha to saves but many of them are cap stones

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.

    And for some, that kills the class, because their default gaming paradigm is "GM ... sorry, Mister Cavern tries to screw me over and the rules are my only defense against that".


    Gorbacz wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.
    And for some, that kills the class, because their default gaming paradigm is "GM ... sorry, Mister Cavern tries to screw me over and the rules are my only defense against that".

    I hope Mister Cavern enjoys playing by himself instead...


    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.

    That was half the fun of it. Marshal was my go-to after a while, but it was always fun to adjust tactics when we found ourselves camping in a tomb without access to the usual choices.

    (Who's Mr. Cavern?)

    The Exchange

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I generally don't believe in "unplayable garbage". To me it's a matter of the challenge I want to have. And as I prefer my games generally to be much more down to earth and gritty, I actually prefer a lot of the "unplayable garbage" options over the tier 1 classes.


    LittleMissNaga wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.

    That was half the fun of it. Marshal was my go-to after a while, but it was always fun to adjust tactics when we found ourselves camping in a tomb without access to the usual choices.

    (Who's Mr. Cavern?)

    Yeah Gorbacz who is Mr. Cavern?


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    Mister Cavern is what one Czech roleplaying game calls the GM. It gets used on an odd, hostile gaming forum called The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com).


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    avr wrote:
    Mister Cavern is what one Czech roleplaying game calls the GM. It gets used on an odd, hostile gaming forum called The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com).

    Sounds annoying and frustrating.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Gorbacz wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.
    And for some, that kills the class, because their default gaming paradigm is "GM ... sorry, Mister Cavern tries to screw me over and the rules are my only defense against that".
    I hope Mister Cavern enjoys playing by himself instead...

    How about: players and GM cooperate in order to make the evening fun for everybody, instead of either or both sides of the table going antagonistic? I've seen both power-mad GMs who act out their fantasies of control as well as "I am under constant assault by the oppressive GM and my barely competent co-players" people. Neither is good for the hobby.


    Gorbacz wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Gorbacz wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.
    It's up to the DM where and when you can summon your spirits. This means it's only as playable as the DM allows.
    And for some, that kills the class, because their default gaming paradigm is "GM ... sorry, Mister Cavern tries to screw me over and the rules are my only defense against that".
    I hope Mister Cavern enjoys playing by himself instead...
    How about: players and GM cooperate in order to make the evening fun for everybody, instead of either or both sides of the table going antagonistic? I've seen both power-mad GMs who act out their fantasies of control as well as "I am under constant assault by the oppressive GM and my barely competent co-players" people. Neither is good for the hobby.

    I agree and That works for my group.

    Its probably one of those reporting bias things where you hear more of the bad stories but people that have no problems don't tend to post threads ranting about it.


    Lady-J wrote:
    anti paladin and paladin are not the same

    For me, they are close enough. I avoid any class where the DM and I can disagree on the alignment of an action and I lose all my class abilities. For some DM's it's a source of endless enjoyment to continuously try to make you fall, so I just avoid the issue altogether. It's much like making it as hard as possible for the medium to summon spirits, because that's part of the 'fun'...


    graystone wrote:
    Lady-J wrote:
    anti paladin and paladin are not the same
    For me, they are close enough. I avoid any class where the DM and I can disagree on the alignment of an action and I lose all my class abilities. For some DM's it's a source of endless enjoyment to continuously try to make you fall, so I just avoid the issue altogether. It's much like making it as hard as possible for the medium to summon spirits, because that's part of the 'fun'...

    So you know your own Mister Cavern then?


    Has anyone mentioned Holy Gun? A gun-wielding archetype for paladins that makes them worse at smiting evil with guns than the base paladin.


    I may have missed it, but did Ragechemist get mentioned yet?

    That's a classic to throw on the unplayable pile (especially since gaining levels actually makes things *worse*).

    Makes Brute Vigilante look good.


    Gulthor wrote:

    I may have missed it, but did Ragechemist get mentioned yet?

    That's a classic to throw on the unplayable pile. Makes Brute Vigilante look good.

    See I don't believe you on the vigilante part. Also I've seen people swear that the rage chemist is a better way to do what the brute is trying to do.


    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Gulthor wrote:

    I may have missed it, but did Ragechemist get mentioned yet?

    That's a classic to throw on the unplayable pile. Makes Brute Vigilante look good.

    See I don't believe you on the vigilante part. Also I've seen people swear that the rage chemist is a better way to do what the brute is trying to do.

    Could be they meant the Master Chymist prestige class, which does do Brute much, much better. Like a Vigilante, Master Chymist gets a dual identity with a separate alignment, shapeshifts when they get hurt or angry, and becomes a devastating powerhouse of destruction.

    Ragechemist just falls into a coma for an hour in exchange for +2 Str.


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    Could be chymist. you might be right on that one.

    Still ragechemist doesn't give you an impossible save to avoid killing allies I think going into a coma is preferable to that.

    Plus I think it keeps bombs so how bad could it be?

    (I think you only fall into a coma if your int drops to 0 from it which is unlikely lol)


    avr wrote:
    Mister Cavern is what one Czech roleplaying game calls the GM. It gets used on an odd, hostile gaming forum called The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com).

    Wow, I started reading a random thread there... And it's so toxic that the most vicious threads here feel like pink unicorns playing with fairies, in comparison. If someone feels the urge to give me a 'Welcome to the Internet', do so...

    To get back on topic, I collected some non-class related options which I'd consider tough to pull:

    Staves
    Splash weapons (without bomb class feature)
    Offensive use of diseases


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    SheepishEidolon wrote:
    avr wrote:
    Mister Cavern is what one Czech roleplaying game calls the GM. It gets used on an odd, hostile gaming forum called The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com).

    Wow, I started reading a random thread there... And it's so toxic that the most vicious threads here feel like pink unicorns playing with fairies, in comparison. If someone feels the urge to give me a 'Welcome to the Internet', do so...

    To get back on topic, I collected some non-class related options which I'd consider tough to pull:

    Staves
    Splash weapons (without bomb class feature)
    Offensive use of diseases

    You got me curious and yelp they can keep that site. let them go and troll and verbally abuse each other to their hearts content just keep it away from me.


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    SheepishEidolon wrote:
    weapons (without bomb class feature)

    I've done this.

    Launching Crossbow + crossbow mastery.
    Focusing Flask + 3 splash weapons/shot
    Concentrated Splash
    Toxicant alchemist's poison: save or take int damage/[1+1/4th level saves], quick action.
    Alchemist's throw anything +int damage

    So 30' range out to x10, 3d6x1.5 energy + Int + save or Int damage: Free action reloads for set of touch attacks. Takes you until 7th to pull together everything though if you go straight alchemist.


    SheepishEidolon wrote:
    avr wrote:
    Mister Cavern is what one Czech roleplaying game calls the GM. It gets used on an odd, hostile gaming forum called The Gaming Den (tgdmb.com).
    Wow, I started reading a random thread there... And it's so toxic that the most vicious threads here feel like pink unicorns playing with fairies, in comparison.

    But there's so many!

    *gets an entire armory of Cold Iron weapons and magical defenses*

    Sovereign Court

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    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Even if you play the worst classes and worst archetypes...going to tell you, you are still going to be fine in any pre published adventures or modules, at least 1st party ones.

    For third party adventures like Rappan Atthuk, Slumbering Tsar, you need at least some optimization to survive.

    For homebrew campaign...it varies a lot. Between Monty Haul GM, to carebear GM, to Killer DM...it's generally better to adjust to your audience.

    Dark Archive

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    SheepishEidolon wrote:
    Offensive use of diseases

    I had one of those, not as a pure focus, but I've used it a lot. Cleric of Urgathoa with the Disease Variant Channeling to harm. Starting lvl 10, one person who fails his save against the channel, was also immediately affected as if he failed his save to a Contagion. Did it saw RAWR? Mindfire for Intelligence damage. Verminous look? Filth Fever and hope it is one of those low Charisma creatures. Anything else? Either Bubonic Plague or Blinding Sickness. Diseases for everyone!

    I had a hard time explaining to the Venture-Captains that had send me on any mission, why everyone we turned in was always contaminated with the most horrible things...


    Just remembered VMC monk. That is just terrible. At least you get something useful from VMC gunslinger....

    Shadow Lodge

    Umbral Reaver wrote:
    Has anyone mentioned Holy Gun? A gun-wielding archetype for paladins that makes them worse at smiting evil with guns than the base paladin.

    Isn't that the archetype that lets you regain uses of smite, unlike other Paladins?


    Ooh, staves. I have no idea how to do a staff build, simply because even the cheapest of the cheap magical staves (that actually do anything) are outrageously expensive.

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Mundane staves builds are decent with the quarterstaff master feat or even the basic weapon monk, use staves fine.

    If you want to add magic to the staff, Staff Magus archetype aka let's make Gambit from the x-men is basically the way to go.

    Druids of course, have their ways to enhance staves to become good weapons with their 1st level spell and believe some higher level spells make staves even better.

    spellcasters in general also have spells to transform mundane items (including staves) into intelligent magic items...yeah there is a spell for that but then again...there is a spell for everything.


    avr wrote:
    Sleuth investigator is a not-unreasonable dip for a swashbuckler. A second panacheoid pool which combines with the swashbucklers' and which has other means of being regained is actually pretty good.

    It doesn't combine with the panache of the swash, your pool doesn't grow at all, just the ways you can restore it.

    page 102 ACG wrote:
    Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)


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    I've just had a dumb idea that might get around the Brute Vigilante's downside. It's not exactly my normal style, but it is silly enough that I think it's worth posting.

    Spiritualist (Phantom Blade) 1/Vigilante (Brute) X

    Your blade works like the Black Blade of a Magus, except that it's a phantom (kind of), and (most importantly), it gets an ego at level 1, instead of 3 like every other black blade archetype I could find.

    If you fail a DC 5 will save, an intelligent item (like your phantom blade) can pseudo-dominate you (CRB, pg. 535-536), which includes the ability to refuse to attack. The save DC is low, but Brute doesn't force you to attempt saves against anything, just to fight, so you can deliberately fail that save and let your blade take charge.

    Whenever you go into team-kill mode, your blade says no. Brute can still unarmed strike, so make sure you have as little skill in that as possible. Focus on the blade that will only let you use it on real enemies.

    It's not a perfect solution, but it's likely better than party-killing. Do your best to foster a friendly relationship with your weapon so that it's inclined to help you rather than cause new complications.

    Silver Crusade

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    Wow, this thread exploded.

    UnArcaneElection wrote:
    Medium. Oh, you say above it's actually okay if you stick with the Champion Spirit? Great . . . except . . . what am I supposed to do if am in an area where it isn't available? And why did we never get a Harrowed Medium archetype like the playtest version was going for?

    That's actually covered in this FAQ, which makes it much easier to have an appropriate location to channel a spirit. Especially a champion spirit, I think. I'd think that spending an hour sparring with your martial teammates while the casters prepare spells would be enough to make your current location count as a training ground. Then everyone sits down for your seance to share the seance boon.

    Also, I still think the class makes a good single level dip for most martial builds. It's sticking to it as a single class that sucks.

    Vidmaster7 wrote:
    Yeah that was first I've heard someone say the entire medium class was unplayable.

    I never called it unplayable, just sub-par. And even then, if you stick to the champion spirit, or taken an archetype that redefines the class, then it's ok. It's just the base class, trying to focus on the other 5 spirits, that sucks.

    I really don't consider anything "unplayable".

    SheepishEidolon wrote:


    To get back on topic, I collected some non-class related options which I'd consider tough to pull:

    Staves
    Splash weapons (without bomb class feature)
    Offensive use of diseases

    I actually have a druid with the Nature's Fang archetype (ie the "I wanna be a slayer" archetype) who specializes in two weapon fighting with both ends of a shillelagh quarterstaff in PFS. At low levels, it's very effective. I think the inability to upgrade my weapon might start to hurt by around level 7 or 8, but I'm not there yet. But I'll still be a 9 level caster with the druid spell list, so being less effective in melee around the time I pick up level 4 spells isn't that big a deal. Or I can just start dipping into other classes that boost my martial ability to make up for the un-enhanced weapon with sneak attacks, favored enemies, etc.

    Or did you mean using magic staves, rather than quarterstaves as a weapon?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    One note I'd make about "unplayable" options is that it's always possible to play around your archetype. To use the example of the Ragechemist that has come up a few times, it's entirely possible to play it and just not use mutagen and still have a functional (if nerfed) character. However, if your solution to a bad archetype is to just not use the class features it offers, then you aren't really playing that archetype so much as playing in spite of it. In that sense, an unplayable option is one whose functionality cannot be used in a practical sense.

    A couple interesting ones that have come to mind that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

    Construct Rider Alchemist
    Looks good on paper, if a bit punishing with reduced extracts, but it's not what the archetype is giving or taking away that's the problem. It turns out that neither the Alchemist nor the archetype have any means of repairing a damaged construct, making the archetype literally unplayable as a stand-alone class. If you can get your GM to give you the ability to repair/replace your construct then you're good, or maybe you have a friendly party member who is willing to devote spell slots to helping you. But if an archetype relies on helpful GM houseruling or party members devoting their own resources just to function then it's not a functional and playable unit on its own.

    Familiar Adept Wizard
    One of those archetypes that is incomprehensibly punitive for meager benefits. The archetype literally has one benefit: once per day your familiar can use your 1st level school power. This is the kind of ability you forget you have, but it's even worse than that since you're saddled with witch familiar rules so using your familiar in combat is a big no-no. And to be clear, witch familiar rules are very flavorful but mechanically are purely a downgrade from wizard spellbook rules due to the higher cost to learn spells, inability to keep backup familiars, and much worse replacement rules. If that were all the downsides maybe we could let this archetype off the hook, but you also lose 3 bonus feats and take an additional opposition school. But what really adds insult to injury is that the archetype actually has the gall to nerf your familiar. It's not a particularly onerous downside compared to the other ridiculous ones I've already listed, but on an archetype called the Familiar Adept it's a slap in the face.

    Umbral Scion Sorcerer
    I actually love this archetype, and in the right campaign it could be really strong and flavorful, but for a typical adventure its class features are unusable. The problem is that its class features almost all revolve around utilizing darkness effects, and are basically useless against enemies with darkvision (which is most of them). Furthermore, these class features can actually hurt your own party members if they lack darkvision (which, let's face it, most PC's don't have). All this comes together to make Umbral Scion an option that just won't function 90% of the time.

    First Worlder/Fey Caller Summoner
    Basically the same archetype, except one is for the chained summoner and one is for unchained. The Fey Caller is better from a conventional character building standpoint, while the First Worlder has an obscure but sinister exploit that can be used to give you a one-trick-pony niche (at least until your GM smacks you over the head with a hardcover book and tells you to cut it out). The First Worlder nerfs your eidolon into the ground to the point at which it's only useful as a skill monkey, while the Fey Caller only trades off useful eidolon abilities for largely superfluous SLA's. Both archetypes trade off the amazing Summon Monster spell-like ability for the Summon Nature's Ally spell-like ability, which is thematic but a pretty terrible power downgrade.


    UnArcaneElection wrote:


  • Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric (auto-fail confusion, insanity, and Nightmare from a higher level caster, and -2 Will on Mind-Affecting effects).
  • I have to disagree a bit with the two points you raise as making the archetype bad.

    The number of times this cleric will be the target of one of those spell effect types from a qualifying caster of the character's career is vanishingly small. The archetype will almost certainly be on a caster type cleric, and is unlikely to be bunched up with the melee type characters that are the usual target for such spells. When it comes up, yeah, it'll suck. However, I have played in entire campaigns where a character I was running was targeted by such effects only once or twice.

    The -2 to Will is compensated by the fact that it's the class's strong save using it's highest related characteristic. At first level, even with the -2, such a cleric will likely have a +4 against such effects. If that isn't good enough, there are multiple traits that grant a +2 save vs mind-affecting effects that'll balance it out.

    The archetype isn't super powerful, being more an interesting and flavorful addition, but it's hardly garbage.

    (Now, if those same two penalties were applied to a beat-stick melee type who typically already has crappy Will saves and is also typically the target for mind-affecting spells, it would be a different matter.)

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