So what're the least-optimal options these days?


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
plaidwandering wrote:
it's still never going to be as good as bow, but it closes the gap a lot for a classic weapon

I don't need it to be as good as a bow, I just need it to be a ranged option when my avenger can't reach the target with his daggers.


you probably don't have weapon focus sling then(prereq)

it's for the folks that waited ages to play a dedicated halfling slingstaff character

Scarab Sages

Dasrak wrote:
The Drake companion rules have been mentioned a few times, but not with a very important caveat. These archetypes are only unplayably bad at low levels. The power scaling of the drake companion is very weird, and they actually catch up to where they need to be by level 11 or 13 (depending on your build). By 20th the drake is a proper upgrade over comparable animal companions and the archetypes tradeoffs make sense. These archetypes are still regarded as terrible since most players do play at the lower level range, but for tables that are playing at higher levels it actually works.

Drakes are interesting, but with to many drawbacks.

1) stat growth being size bonuses
2) 2 animal spells can't buff them(as far as i recall)
3) 1 Primary attack and 1 Secondary attack(probably the worst possible option imo)
4) No barding
5) Max 1 magic item and very limited at that
6) Size, It might be cool when it become huge, but to few areas got the space for it to not get in the way for the rest of the party.
7) takes 7 years to get it back if it die
8) you give up to many features in general for it
9) doesn't work with boon companion

There's probably more drawbacks

main strength imo:

1) more Skill points
2) If allowed monster feats, could be a more unique experience
3) a reasonable bit of customize able options(drake powers)

I don't think all drake companion archtypes are unplayable, but i do think they went overboard with how much they've weakened them.

My current main idea for having a drake in pfs is getting it to focus on out of combat stuff, unfortunately aside for it getting a familiar theres not many intersting feats for outside of combat for a potential int 10-16 area.
So yes I would degrade the drake companion to be mostly flavor and my characters advicer rather than throw it into combat in pfs


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Azullius Koujou wrote:


Drakes are interesting, but with to many drawbacks.

Definitely, and by about 17th level it's a very nuanced tradeoff with steep downsides but some pretty cool advantages. If the drake companion rules offered this level of power consistently at all levels I think the view of them would be much more favorable. As it stands, though, having to wait until the very highest levels just to be a mixed bag is terrible as far as archetypes go. If you are at those high levels, though it is a mixed bag and a perfectly playable option.


Dwarftr wrote:

My opinion, a "white-haired witch"......

Lose all your hexes to get attacking hair. While you get int to attack, you are still a a witch trying to do melee with your crappy BaB

I disagree, I have seen a WW witch be the primary grappler who does the whole 'Hulk smash puny god!' routine pretty well.

As for Blade Boots, perhaps talk with the Dm about Caporia style fighting or being able to walk on your hands.

Dark Archive

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
* Improvised weapons user
Life just got MUCH easier for them with a new magic item that grants enhancement bonuses to any improvised weapon you use, both in melee and thrown. Actually, it's more effective to play a thrown improvised weapon user than it is to play any other thrown weapon build at this point because of them.

What's this? Cause that would make one of my idiot builds a lot more effective.


quibblemuch wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
1 level dip into every caster

Done this. It worked really well. I could use every wand in the game and had a much easier chance of using any scroll than with UMD.

In my experience most "garbage" or "unviable" options are fine, if you use a little cleverness, imagination, and tactical acumen.

And now, having lobbed that out there, I'm leaving this thread, never to return.

how was it at level 9+ were lower level spells start to fall off?


TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
* Improvised weapons user
Life just got MUCH easier for them with a new magic item that grants enhancement bonuses to any improvised weapon you use, both in melee and thrown. Actually, it's more effective to play a thrown improvised weapon user than it is to play any other thrown weapon build at this point because of them.
What's this? Cause that would make one of my idiot builds a lot more effective.

They're a pair of gloves in the Adventurers Armory 2. In addition, it expands a lot upon improvised weapons by giving them special qualities inherent to the weapon itself, like burning, unwieldy or gross.


Eldritch Scion Magus - it removes everything that makes Magi normally good without really giving anything in return. Just remember you outright can't use any of your class features with metamagic anymore, as metamagicked spells are full-round actions while your class features want standard action spells.

The Brute Vigilante archetype is the only tier 7 class in the game, so that might also be an interesting option for a gimped character.

Scarab Sages

Dasrak wrote:
Azullius Koujou wrote:


Drakes are interesting, but with to many drawbacks.
Definitely, and by about 17th level it's a very nuanced tradeoff with steep downsides but some pretty cool advantages. If the drake companion rules offered this level of power consistently at all levels I think the view of them would be much more favorable. As it stands, though, having to wait until the very highest levels just to be a mixed bag is terrible as far as archetypes go. If you are at those high levels, though it is a mixed bag and a perfectly playable option.

If they however were allowed monster feats, I could see a fair use for a Drake in the lvl 6-8 area, maybe longer.

Would however limit you a lot in what type of drake you can make.
Acidic bite and making damaged opponents have to make a dc 15-17 fort save at that point or get nauseated for 3-4 turns sounds workable to me, the 7 years to get a new one who's not strong enough compared to what it costs(and unfortunately not allowed to take monster feats in general even though a drake if anything should imo)

Oh yeah, heard that if the drake die your new drake will start out as lvl 1 tiny which makes it even more troublesome


MannyGoblin wrote:
Dwarftr wrote:

My opinion, a "white-haired witch"......

Lose all your hexes to get attacking hair. While you get int to attack, you are still a a witch trying to do melee with your crappy BaB

I disagree, I have seen a WW witch be the primary grappler who does the whole 'Hulk smash puny god!' routine pretty well.

How did that work? I'd have thought a WHW would have difficulty getting a useful CMD, which is almost as important as CMB when grappling. Poor BAB and needing Int plus all physical stats good isn't a good start.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
avr wrote:
MannyGoblin wrote:
Dwarftr wrote:

My opinion, a "white-haired witch"......

Lose all your hexes to get attacking hair. While you get int to attack, you are still a a witch trying to do melee with your crappy BaB

I disagree, I have seen a WW witch be the primary grappler who does the whole 'Hulk smash puny god!' routine pretty well.
How did that work? I'd have thought a WHW would have difficulty getting a useful CMD, which is almost as important as CMB when grappling. Poor BAB and needing Int plus all physical stats good isn't a good start.

They use the INT for grapple checks.


And strength for damage, dex and con to stay alive. I'm not saying all those four abilities apply to CMD, but they need all four high for the character to work at all.


avr wrote:
And strength for damage, dex and con to stay alive. I'm not saying all those four abilities apply to CMD, but they need all four high for the character to work at all.

Nope just read it looks like int for damage as well.


Ah right, misremembered - I knew they used Str for something but it looks like it's just non-grapple attack rolls and CMD.

Edit: though it looks like they do need to make a non-grapple attack roll before they can make the grapple combat maneuver check.

Silver Crusade

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avr wrote:

Ah right, misremembered - I knew they used Str for something but it looks like it's just non-grapple attack rolls and CMD.

Edit: though it looks like they do need to make a non-grapple attack roll before they can make the grapple combat maneuver check.

The Defensive Combat Training feat from Core lets you use your level instead of BAB for CMD, which would help a lot. I've never tried a white haired witch, or seen one done for more than one session in PFS at low level, so I don't know how viable it really is. But I could see how it might be workable if you put EVERYTHING into it. On the other hand, that turns you into a one trick pony, which isn't a good thing. But you'd still have the normal witch spells as a backup plan.

My own suggestion for a class idea that's barely playable is the base medium class. If you just stick to the Champion spirit, you can make a pretty good front liner, but if you don't specialize in that, or take one of the archetypes that completely redefines the class, then it's just not a very good class. I love the idea behind it. I just wish it were better mechanically.


Thrown weapon builds

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thrown weapon builds

I disagree. Seriously, I wasn't sure if a thrown build was viable, but that thread convinced me it is. Mostly because of the Weapon Master's Handbook. My own thrown build is only up to level 2 in PFS, so I haven't gotten far enough yet to test it in practice, but it seems reasonable, if you know what you're doing to optimize the concept.


After playing a Warpriest of Pharasma that threw daggers as his primary attack routine, I agree with Fromper.


The Weapon Master's Handbook, and specifically Ricochet Toss pretty much solve the big problem with throwing builds (i.e. that you needed a full attack progression of expensive enchanted whatevers instead of one really good like other people get to use). It's sort of a bummer for Flying Blade swashbucklers that their weapon training doesn't (by RAW) count as weapon mastery feats, but Martial Focus isn't the worst thing in the world.

Scarab Sages

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I'm give to understand slingstaffs don't really work.

The brut vigilante archetype is also supposed to be bad.

Brute vigilante is bad but hardly 'unplayable.' In non-vigilante form you are still a fairly competent skill monkey.

Also, with the advent of slipslinger style, slingstaffs are now viable, if not optimal. I have a halfling switch hitter that actually does pretty well. Level 5 he has a +9 to hit in melee for d4+8 (no power attack) and at range +11 for d6+10 with enough stones to do all three types of damage (b/s/p) and overcome dr cold iron/silver/ghost touch. They do need to come up with an efficient quiver for sling stones though (grumble grumble)

Scarab Sages

Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Mr. Bonkers wrote:


I have also always wanted to make a Blade Boot build, but it is hard to get around that difficult/impassable terrain problem without serious investment. Still tinkering with that one.
Six levels of aero kineticist should do it. Difficult terrain doesn't matter when you have at will flight. It is an even bigger investment than the staff sling, and the sea knife would be better for the always flying than the blade boot, but it's an interesting idea.

Flying huh, kinda forgot about that solution (I was busy trying to ignore difficult terrain). However, 6 levels of Kineticist is a huge investment for kicking...

But I could also be a Alchemist with the Wings Discovery, allows me to be functional several times a day. I know that this is still a 6 level investment, but the Kineticist doesn't really strike me as a Blade Boot user that much (blasts/kinetic swords and all that). There might be other solutions, but I'll have to look into those. Thanks for the flying tip though, this character is a little closer to his introduction in PFS.

6 levels is a big investment, but you can get a Conductive boot blade for elemental kicks and that's cool.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In brief, more resources = more playable options.

I mean even Adventurer's Armory 2, essentially made it even easier for people to play with whatever weapon they want. You want a greatsword that counts as a monk weapon? do it. You want a crossbow that counts as a revolver for whatever reason? you can do it. You want a scythe with the trip and drag ability? you can do it.

Thrown builds are hard to do on corebook only...but nowadays, it's quite playable.

On top of it, we still get archetypes, new feats, new spells, new items every month. So you want to play something? there is an option out there.

Scarab Sages

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As a side note, I really hate the idea of the 'unplayable' build. There are builds that are not optimal, sure, but unless you actively try to do things that your character wasn't built for, I find most builds aren't unplayable.

A lot of people seem to equate 'non-optimal' with 'complete garbage.' And it kinda pisses me off. It's just part of the 'get good' mentality that doesn't have any place at a gaming table. If you wanna play an appraiser with skill focus (appraise), as long as you can pull your weight, who cares? Here is a brief list of builds I have had fun with that people have said were 'unplayable' that actually did pretty well.

Melee summoner without power attack until lvl 11
Halfling sling staff build
'Utility' alchemist that focused more on extracts and helping allies than bombs
Chained drunken master monk
Oracle with higher INT than Charisma


Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Mr. Bonkers wrote:


I have also always wanted to make a Blade Boot build, but it is hard to get around that difficult/impassable terrain problem without serious investment. Still tinkering with that one.
Six levels of aero kineticist should do it. Difficult terrain doesn't matter when you have at will flight. It is an even bigger investment than the staff sling, and the sea knife would be better for the always flying than the blade boot, but it's an interesting idea.

Flying huh, kinda forgot about that solution (I was busy trying to ignore difficult terrain). However, 6 levels of Kineticist is a huge investment for kicking...

But I could also be a Alchemist with the Wings Discovery, allows me to be functional several times a day. I know that this is still a 6 level investment, but the Kineticist doesn't really strike me as a Blade Boot user that much (blasts/kinetic swords and all that). There might be other solutions, but I'll have to look into those. Thanks for the flying tip though, this character is a little closer to his introduction in PFS.

The Magic Warrior Magus archetype can spend 1 arcana point to fly (or use another beast shape 1 power) for one minute per class level. If you go with the original (somewhat poorly written) version , then you can do it at will for free.

Either way, lots of flight + spell combat etc for damage could make the boot blade work. You could make your mask an Eagle and call your blade your talon or something.

Scarab Sages

VampByDay wrote:


Oracle with higher INT than Charisma

Graneted not great, but with a mystery granting a growing bonus to int it shouldn't be all that hard to get Cha and Int close to each other if you wanted to or become the knowledge dude Philosopher


avr wrote:
MannyGoblin wrote:
Dwarftr wrote:

My opinion, a "white-haired witch"......

Lose all your hexes to get attacking hair. While you get int to attack, you are still a a witch trying to do melee with your crappy BaB

I disagree, I have seen a WW witch be the primary grappler who does the whole 'Hulk smash puny god!' routine pretty well.
How did that work? I'd have thought a WHW would have difficulty getting a useful CMD, which is almost as important as CMB when grappling. Poor BAB and needing Int plus all physical stats good isn't a good start.

In addition to the posters above, a few more things. The game was on the boards here as 'Shadows over Westcrown' and they were at the end of book 5 so I believe about 10th level. At 10th level, a WHW has 15' reach with the hair and coupled with a fly/overland flight spell spell gave her excellent mobility. Able to Constrict,Trip,Pull and Strangle. Coupled with teammates she was able to pin down people while they beat on them.

Of course, Freedom of Movement negates that but Cest la Vie

Scarab Sages

Azullius Koujou wrote:
VampByDay wrote:


Oracle with higher INT than Charisma

Graneted not great, but with a mystery granting a growing bonus to int it shouldn't be all that hard to get Cha and Int close to each other if you wanted to or become the knowledge dude Philosopher

Here he is at level 13

Here is his statblock, if you want to judge for yourself. In addition to his Int higher than chr, he also was almost pure dubuff removal/mitagation, instead of dealing damage or healing focused. Still did really well in most games by a combination of skill monkey, some healing, and debuff removal.


Well I want to make a knife master scout unchained rouge that uses charging hurler to get sneak attack while chucking a dagger at people and deal d8 sneak attack damage Seems it combines two things people think are garbage into something useful.

Silver Crusade

doctor_wu wrote:
Well I want to make a knife master scout unchained rouge that uses charging hurler to get sneak attack while chucking a dagger at people and deal d8 sneak attack damage Seems it combines two things people think are garbage into something useful.

I'd never think to combine it with Charging Hurler, but it does seem that Knife Master Unchained Rogue is generally regarded as one of the best ways to build a rogue. Personally, I combined my Unchained Knife Master with the Scout Rogue archetype for sneak attacks while moving, and a level of Medium to always channel the Champion spirit.

And I'm the same guy who complained that Medium isn't a very good class, but I mostly meant if you didn't multi-class or stick to the Champion spirit. It's actually a pretty good single level dip on just about any martial build.


Cavall wrote:

Core rogue is unplayable garbage?

I mean it's not the greatest but I think that's a little much.

Unplayable garbage is probably a bit much, but the core rogue is badly outclassed in basically every niche you could build one for except sap adept/master enforcer builds with Thug and Scout.

And really once you've gotten to the point that the only rogue who isn't being out-rogued by other classes is the one that grabs a big hammer and charges screaming at people and is hard-countered by every undead and construct in the game that's not a great place to be.

That said, I'd definitely say the worst thing you can play as a PC is the Brute Vigilante, which gives up a lot of very nice things from the Vigilante class for a set of horrendous class features. You're not even the poor man's barbarian, you're the bad Chinese bootleg version of the poor man's barbarian.

Ragechemist alchemists look pretty miserable to play as, too. It's an alchemist built to play as a Hyde specialist, but Hyde likes to tank and be in the midst of battle. The Ragechemist's mutagen, however, gives you some very moderate increases to your mutagen buff in exchange for penalizing your will saves and intelligence as you take damage. You do get will saves to try and avoid your brain falling out every time you get hit but it's a will save, which Alchemists are bad at, and your will save penalties stack and last a very long time. Blow one and you're in death spiral territory and your slight boost to strength comes at the cost of being a tank who can be put in a COMA by a few goblins scratching you up, as well as a sitting duck for the ol' "grab the buff guy with a compulsion that makes him kill his friends" tactic enemies like so much.


Mashallah wrote:
The Brute Vigilante archetype is the only tier 7 class in the game, so that might also be an interesting option for a gimped character.

Hmm, I gave it a try, at least theoretically.


NPC class into a prestige class is pretty rough as well. My favorite is the Commoner/Stalwart Defender. PC classes the hard way.


Had a core rogue in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for a core rogue. :)


The Mad Comrade wrote:

Had a core rogue in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for a core rogue. :)

You may say that but all I see when you do is

Had an Expert in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for an Expert.

So unless you care to share how being a rogue helped them achieve their success I feel you're just advocating having experts in the party.


doctor_wu wrote:
Well I want to make a knife master scout unchained rouge that uses charging hurler to get sneak attack while chucking a dagger at people and deal d8 sneak attack damage Seems it combines two things people think are garbage into something useful.

Blinkback belt helps a bunch with this.


The Mad Comrade wrote:

Had a core rogue in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for a core rogue. :)

Thing is, I pointed out the core rogue is outclassed by basically everything that does a similar job, not that you couldn't do anything with it.

I don't doubt the core rogue supported by her team in a Paizo AP, which are usually pretty forgiving difficulty-wise and are not known for optimized boss fights, did pretty well.

I also don't doubt an unchained rogue, inquisitor, alchemist, bard, investigator, mesmerist, vigilante, or slayer would have gotten equal or better results with that shortbow and probably been able to support the team better in return for their support.

On the subject of throwing, Ricochet Toss does bear some mentioning. Unfortunately it's got some feat taxes if you aren't a fighter but on the other hand it lets you have a primary weapon like every other weapon-based fighting style does and makes blinkback belts no longer mandatory.

Throwing's still a difficult style to make work in early levels, though. You just gotta carry a lot of knives and hope your GM's not a jerk about gathering them up afterwards. I get that throwing weapons were primarily meant as a distraction in real combat but this is a fantasy game, the knife-throwing badass is too classic a trope not to keep supporting.


I thought about a "butler" build. It is heavily MAD though.

Bard 1 (court bard) for the sarcastic attitude and the spell to hide alignment.

Monk 1 (for unarmed combat)

Ranger 1 (for favoured enemy human)

Rogue 2

Then finally . . . Assassin 10!

Yes the assassin, that most flavourful yet unplayable prestige class.

You might want to change the pre-assassin class levels (try to avoid classes that get you an evil aura though - those are harder to hide), but I would retain at least Bard 1 because then no one has to know that you are evil. Just sarcastic. ;)

Grand Lodge

The Martyr Paladin archetype is pretty weak in my opinion, giving up some very powerful abilities for a weaker version of bardic performance.


I find most two weapon fighting to fall into this catagory. No matter how good it looks on paper, fights wind up being mobile and you just can't make very good use of it.

Grand Lodge

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How about a Dual-Cursed Oracle with the Clouded Vision and Deaf curses?


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How about making a Rage Prophet that's better than a multiclass Barbarian/Oracle?

Seriously though, I would like to see a good Rage Prophet.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Cenorin wrote:
How about a Dual-Cursed Oracle with the Clouded Vision and Deaf curses?

Consider the Deaf oracle curse and the Blind Zeal trait.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:

Had a core rogue in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for a core rogue. :)

You may say that but all I see when you do is

Had an Expert in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for an Expert.

So unless you care to share how being a rogue helped them achieve their success I feel you're just advocating having experts in the party.

Expert? Hardly. The rogue's player was squeaky-new, this was her very first Pathfinder character and her 2nd TTRPG character ever.

Being a rogue helped the party because (a) skill monkey; (b) sneak attack from range before the BSF waded in and hacked monsters to giblets; and (c) the other members of the party did their jobs. Ya know, the arcane caster providing various forms of magical concealment spells on the rogue as well as haste for the entire group plus assorted abjurations. The divine caster doing things like align weapon, bless, prayer and assorted abjurations.

She made most of the encounters shorter because she did the rogue's shtick at sneak attack range. She learned as she went, getting better over the course of the campaign along with her character getting better.

It does not take an expert player to play a sneak attacker any more than it takes expert players to support each other.

It takes the entire group working with their sneak attacker so that they can fight fewer rounds per encounter, taking less damage, afflictions and other assorted nasty conditions.

wands of cure light wounds may be cheap, but ammunition is cheaper. Would you rather pay 3 gp per hit point cured or 5 cp per sneak attack arrow (7 damage+ per hit)?


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:

Had a core rogue in my Shattered Star campaign that was properly supported by her fellow players. Once the character got going, her little short bow ventilated stuff a lot more often than not.

Heck, she scored the killing shot on Runelord Sorshen. Not too shabby for a core rogue. :)

Thing is, I pointed out the core rogue is outclassed by basically everything that does a similar job, not that you couldn't do anything with it.

I don't doubt the core rogue supported by her team in a Paizo AP, which are usually pretty forgiving difficulty-wise and are not known for optimized boss fights, did pretty well.

I also don't doubt an unchained rogue, inquisitor, alchemist, bard, investigator, mesmerist, vigilante, or slayer would have gotten equal or better results with that shortbow and probably been able to support the team better in return for their support.

On the subject of throwing, Ricochet Toss does bear some mentioning. Unfortunately it's got some feat taxes if you aren't a fighter but on the other hand it lets you have a primary weapon like every other weapon-based fighting style does and makes blinkback belts no longer mandatory.

Throwing's still a difficult style to make work in early levels, though. You just gotta carry a lot of knives and hope your GM's not a jerk about gathering them up afterwards. I get that throwing weapons were primarily meant as a distraction in real combat but this is a fantasy game, the knife-throwing badass is too classic a trope not to keep supporting.

Never claimed the core rogue was better than the other 8 classes, (although a bard by no means can directly contribute multiple instances of multiple dice of weapon damage directly on-target until their ammunition runs out).

I am refuting claims that the core rogue "sucks". It doesn't anymore than the Fighter BSF in the group. Classes "suck" mostly when the expectation is for everyone to support themselves rather than enhancing each other's strengths while shoring up each other's weaknesses.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Expert? Hardly.

Expert the NPC class.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Expert? Hardly.
Expert the NPC class.

That's flat-out insulting to multiple people. >:(


The mad Comrade wrote:
I am refuting claims that the core rogue "sucks". It doesn't anymore than the Fighter BSF in the group. Classes "suck" mostly when the expectation is for everyone to support themselves rather than enhancing each other's strengths while shoring up each other's weaknesses.

The core rogue

-Did not do it's own job particularly well.

-massive number of skill points lets you do more things, but this has diminishing returns. Your first 2 skills are better than your second two, which are better than your last 2. Pathfinder skill condensation means that you don't need as many skills

-traits give you the same bonus in what you want that the rogue has.

-human rogues can't backstab people in a dark alley.

- Rogues do really well when flanking and full attacking. Those are two not quite diametrically opposed propositions, but they're pretty close.

- was billed as an agile fighter that used subtly, but the best rogues were strength based brutes with large weapons.

Shadow Lodge

The Mad Comrade wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Expert? Hardly.
Expert the NPC class.
That's flat-out insulting to multiple people. >:(

Deal with it. Enough teamwork and it doesn't matter what class you put in there. Even an Expert can shine with enough dedicated helpers backing him up.


A) So is the expert you have 2 less skills points, but you're able to cover all the skills you need to be called a skill monkey, since you're relying on party to cover some stuff.
B) Your fight started within 30 ft of the boss.
C) so the wizard was spamming greater invis to give the rogue sneak attack for each fight, cause anything less doesn't allow repeated sneak attack, and the cleric an assortment of minor buffs.

that's a 4th level spell per fight, a black tentacles would likely have done as much and prevented more damage, as an example of what else the wizard could have been doing.
and the cleric also doing nothing but supporting the rogue.

the rogue "shined" cause the heavyweight classes deemed to have it so.

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