GM Shirt Re-roll?


Pathfinder Society

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Scarab Sages

Just wondering if GM could be given the option to re-roll, once per session, like the players get to, for having a PFS T-shirt? Unlike the players, the idea would be to give the GM the option to attempt to get a lower roll for an NPC (or spell or trap) using a d20.

Locally, we've had GMs, not complain per say, but wish aloud they could reroll a natural 20 they rolled in a session. There isn't, as far as I know, any bonus for GMs that wear the PFS shirts. Would be nice (especially for nice GMs that wanted to keep their player's alive), and would encourage more PFS shirts...

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

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GM star give a minus to the roll instead of a plus?

Silver Crusade

I tend to wear my shirt, even when GMing, and just offer my reroll to the party, in case someone doesn't have their own.


Fromper wrote:
I tend to wear my shirt, even when GMing, and just offer my reroll to the party, in case someone doesn't have their own.

Think this is what most GM's do (at least mine does)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Many areas allow the players to use their shirt reroll to force the GM to reroll with their stars as a penalty.

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Many areas allow the players to use their shirt reroll to force the GM to reroll with their stars as a penalty.

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

I have never seen this practice.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pirate Rob wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Many areas allow the players to use their shirt reroll to force the GM to reroll with their stars as a penalty.

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

I have never seen this practice.

Nor i.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Muse. wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Many areas allow the players to use their shirt reroll to force the GM to reroll with their stars as a penalty.

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

I have never seen this practice.
Nor i.

I don't believe this is supported by the rules.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Gary Bush wrote:
Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.

Nope. But I do carry a spare folio for new players to borrow.

Scarab Sages 3/5 Venture-Agent

Jared Thaler wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.
Nope. But I do carry a spare folio for new players to borrow.

Yeah this is what I've started doing as well. I've seen GM's give their re-roll to players, but carrying an extra feels like a better option. Not only grants the benefit of the re-roll which can be crucial at times, but helps create a welcoming environment for new players(and hopefully encourages them to buy their own for the future.)

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Pirate Rob wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Many areas allow the players to use their shirt reroll to force the GM to reroll with their stars as a penalty.

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

I have never seen this practice.

Me neither.

Scarab Sages

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Or you could just roll behind a screen and when that unfortunate nat 20 comes up, you can just treat it as something else. GM prerogative.

Local GMs don't use the GM screen to hide rolls, but that is a valid reason to use a GM screen.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Pirate Rob wrote:


I have never seen this practice.

Certainly not common, but I've seen it often enough that it's not a one-off. At this point, I would call it unusual more so than rare.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Jared Thaler wrote:
I don't believe this is supported by the rules.

Depends on what you consider part of the "rule zero" concept and GM fiat that is loosely defined and even encouraged in the CRB, Gamemaster Guide, and other places. In many cases it's up to the GM to decide to what extent they are comfortable with things like metagaming, open vs hidden rolls, fudging dice, individual vs group initiative, circumstance bonus/penalties for checks, live dice vs digital emulators, role vs roll play, when to void tactics, etc.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I'm pretty sure Mike ruled against players being able to force the GM to reroll. I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I only know because one of my stores was doing it and I had never heard of that before so had to ask if it was legal.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

There's quite simply no rule that allows the GM to shirt reroll anything.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
There's quite simply no rule that allows the GM to shirt reroll anything.

It goes beyond this. There is an explicit rule that *forbids* GMs from shirt rerolling anything.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Sorry to offend the rules lawyers. How about this...

GM: Uh oh, critical threat

PLAYER 1: Crap, this is my favorite character and the healer couldn't make it tonight. I only have a few HP left after that last round of damage

GM: That's okay, you can use my shirt reroll and I'll roll it again. Even take my GM stars as a penalty

PLAYER 2: You can't do that, the rules say no reroll for the GM

GM: Okay [rolls dice, seems to ignore the result] its not a crit, you only take 10 damage. Oh, and its non-lethal because [enemy] wants to take you as a hostage

PLAYER 1: Whew! That was a close one

--Later--

GM: Make a Will save

PLAYER 2: Crap, I rolled a "1". I'll use my reroll

GM: Sorry, you can't. Rerolls are only allowed when you do not know the results of the roll before announcing your intent to use the reroll and clearly rolling a one is an autofail

PLAYER 2: That's that fair. Grumble, grumble

GM: Oh NOW you wanna ignore rules as written...

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sorry to offend the rules lawyers. How about this...

Take a walk, Bob.

Jared Thaler wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.
Nope. But I do carry a spare folio for new players to borrow.

Yep, I just slide a folio across the table while looking the other way.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.
Nope. But I do carry a spare folio for new players to borrow.
Yep, I just slide a folio across the table while looking the other way.

And this is the hypocrisy that encouraged my last post. Why even ask about a reroll source? Just grant players a reroll automatically regardless. I see it all the time where a player does not have a visible reroll source, often not even asking for one, but the GM offering them one anyway. There is no meaningful difference between pulling out "spare" reroll items and handing them out to those who don't have one for themselves, the GM granting their reroll to a player, or even just allowing everyone a reroll without any source at all. The whole reroll system is ridiculous, rife with entitlement, and completely ignores the original point of why it was created.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Bob Jonquet wrote:
And this is the hypocrisy that encouraged my last post. Why even ask about a reroll source?

Because it doesn't work when they already have a reroll source? And I only have one folio?

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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This is getting needlessly snippy. Can we discuss the question of GM rerolls without using loaded terminology?

OUR COMMON GROUND:

No one has a problem with GMs lending their reroll to players who have a bad roll.

Everyone agrees that not allowing a player to reroll a 1 is absurd, even if the outcome is certain.

WHERE WE DIFFER:

There is disagreement on whether players can use their reroll to affect the GM's roll and negate a crit. The way I see this, this is a case of table and regional variation in PFS. Flite, can you find us the specific rule that disallows this practice?

MY THOUGHTS:

In my region, I don't see re-rolls done for GMs EXCEPT in cases of the dual-cursed oracle Misfortune Revelation. I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this, and I believe that reroll rules are the sort of thing that we should be consistent about across regions.

I'm open to the idea unless there is a ruling that specifically says we cannot do it. However, whatever we do, I'd like us to be consistent about it. I administer a region (Online Play-by-Post) where everyone meets from all over the world; as a result, there are often mild PFS culture clashes as all our regions' differing customs collide.

It would be my preference to sort out a single custom on rerolls so that everyone has the same basic expectation.

Hmm

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
Pretty sure that a GM can't give their reroll away.
Nope. But I do carry a spare folio for new players to borrow.
Yep, I just slide a folio across the table while looking the other way.
... Why even ask about a reroll source? Just grant players a reroll automatically regardless...

Note the bolding above.

I have one spare reroll source. Okay, realistically, I have 3 in my bag, if my wife and daughter are not playing, but I only ever admit to one. And it gets pulled out only when a new player will not have a fun game if it doesn't get pulled out.

Regarding your examples above.

First of all, I am not in the camp that says 1's disqualify from a reroll. Ones are not always auto fail, and even on a failed save you do not know what happens if you fail until the GM tells you.

On the crit example, nothing is stopping you from declaring it a nonlethal attack if it would seem reasonable within the tactics of the creature. Since NL and L fill seperate tracks, you could even roll in the open and confirm the crit and it would be incredibly rare to actually kill someone's character.

But then, that is also what the Retail Incentive Program, Prestige, Pooling funds, and a whole slew of other programs are there to support. And you know, bad luck happens.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Jared Thaler wrote:

On the crit example, nothing is stopping you from declaring it a nonlethal attack if it would seem reasonable within the tactics of the creature. Since NL and L fill seperate tracks, you could even roll in the open and confirm the crit and it would be incredibly rare to actually kill someone's character.

Which only works a small percentage of the time and is not even justifiable on the enemies capable of criting for 3d6+12 a first level character.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
In my region, I don't see re-rolls done for GMs EXCEPT in cases of the dual-cursed oracle Misfortune Revelation. I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this, and I believe that reroll rules are the sort of thing that we should be consistent about across regions.

Speak not of local custom you do not know.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Jared Thaler wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
There's quite simply no rule that allows the GM to shirt reroll anything.
It goes beyond this. There is an explicit rule that *forbids* GMs from shirt rerolling anything.

Unless some explicit moment allows otherwise, I agree. This is not hypothetical.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mike ruled against players being able to force the GM to reroll. I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I only know because one of my stores was doing it and I had never heard of that before so had to ask if it was legal.

Force is also a strong word. I would not allow a player to force me to do anything, unless there was an explicit rule allowing it.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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MisterSlanky wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
In my region, I don't see re-rolls done for GMs EXCEPT in cases of the dual-cursed oracle Misfortune Revelation. I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this, and I believe that reroll rules are the sort of thing that we should be consistent about across regions.
Speak not of local custom you do not know.

Eh, I'm not aware of any local custom that allows players to force a GM to refill. Although I've seen it plenty where a GM offers players that option.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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MisterSlanky wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
In my region, I don't see re-rolls done for GMs EXCEPT in cases of the dual-cursed oracle Misfortune Revelation. I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this, and I believe that reroll rules are the sort of thing that we should be consistent about across regions.
Speak not of local custom you do not know.

I believe that by "local custom does not support..." she means her own local scene. If she meant ALL local custom, well, that's not really local, is it?

Anyway, it would be really sick if y'all could cite some rules or make a case for clarification if you can't find any or what exists is unclear.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

MisterSlanky wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
In my region, I don't see re-rolls done for GMs EXCEPT in cases of the dual-cursed oracle Misfortune Revelation. I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this, and I believe that reroll rules are the sort of thing that we should be consistent about across regions.
Speak not of local custom you do not know.

Point taken!

My apologies for the error -- I spoke only of my own observations, but I am in a very BIG region with lots of different store cultures. This only shows how diverse Minnesota is in terms of game culture.

If there are GMs that offer this option in Minnesota, I stand corrected.

Hmm

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

for reference, at this time the reroll section is missing from the website. So, the only rules covering rerolls exist in the Guide v8.0

Quote:
As a way of rewarding players who show their support for the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign by purchasing and using items featuring campaign insignia, faction logos, or Pathfinder branding, a player utilizing any of the items on paizo.com/pathfindersociety/rerolls can reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario. Recognize that this reroll must happen before the original result is determined and the player must use the reroll result, even if the result is lower. Game Masters are also invited to wear Pathfinder Society Organized Play shirts, but gain no additional benefits other than supporting Pathfinder.

Note, the link is dead so currently there is no publicly published reference location with all the reroll options that are legal.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

A penny goes one way around the table while the folio goes the other. Legal ownership of a folio

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I got no problem with the GM lending a folio to someone - I've done it myself now and then, for example during a long combat when the newbie just failed to confirm a crit on the boss that would end things nicely.

But the GM himself just doesn't get to reroll things. So he can't reroll things in favor of the players nor to "make it more challenging".

---

As for declaring it nonlethal: you do have to decide before you roll an attack roll whether you're going to take the -4 to deal nonlethal. It's not correct to do that after you know you're already going to hit on a natural 20.

I've recently done an emergency handout of a Welcome to PFS boon in a comparable situation. (New guy got Confused into attacking the also-Confused powergamer, then got dealt 37 damage on his L1 PC. Some tense math later he barely survived at -20HP due to the extra fake con from the boon.)

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
mechaPoet wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Speak not of local custom you do not know.
I believe that by "local custom does not support..." she means her own local scene. If she meant ALL local custom, well, that's not really local, is it?

Um...former Venture Captain for her specific city speaking...

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
Eh, I'm not aware of any local custom that allows players to force a GM to refill. Although I've seen it plenty where a GM offers players that option.

Hillary did not use the word "force". Hillary stated, "I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this".

The word "force" does not appear anywhere in this statement, and in fact the statement contends that it's from the viewpoint of the GM that wants to help their players, not players that are trying to get their GM to change outcomes.

That statement I contend is not true; however, local custom may have had influence by certain VOs which may have made it less true.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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MisterSlanky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Eh, I'm not aware of any local custom that allows players to force a GM to refill. Although I've seen it plenty where a GM offers players that option.

Hillary did not use the word "force". Hillary stated, "I'd love a way for the players to loop back time so I could avoid killing a low level party with an unfortunate crit... but local custom does not support this".

The word "force" does not appear anywhere in this statement, and in fact the statement contends that it's from the viewpoint of the GM that wants to help their players, not players that are trying to get their GM to change outcomes.

That statement I contend is not true; however, local custom may have had influence by certain VOs which may have made it less true.

Local custom implies that a majority of GMs allow this. My experience as a VO for MN for 5 years, is that the majority of GMs do not do this. In fact, its maybe a baker's handful that do.

A few GM's in an area, even if they are 5-star GM's or VO's or former VO's does not make it local custom.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Jared Thaler wrote:
First of all, I am not in the camp that says 1's disqualify from a reroll. Ones are not always auto fail, and even on a failed save you do not know what happens if you fail until the GM tells you.

I don't understand how there can be such a camp. John Compton posted that they are explicitly allowed on natural 1s (it was on Facebook, and I can't dig up the actual post, but here is a link talking about the Facebook post).

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
First of all, I am not in the camp that says 1's disqualify from a reroll. Ones are not always auto fail, and even on a failed save you do not know what happens if you fail until the GM tells you.
I don't understand how there can be such a camp. John Compton posted that they are explicitly allowed on natural 1s (it was on Facebook, and I can't dig up the actual post, but here is a link talking about the Facebook post).

I realize we're pathfinders, but finding that quote would require more archeology than most seasons we go through

Dark Archive 5/5

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Facebook post about rerolling nat 1s.

Took me a little while to find it, but I managed. Is what I do.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Michael Eshleman wrote:
John Compton posted that they are explicitly allowed on natural 1s (it was on Facebook...

Actually what he said was...

John Compton wrote:
I always consider a natural 1 fair territory for using a "shirt reroll."

He merely expressed how he does it. That is a far cry from an official ruling and considering the comment was made on Facebook means even if he did say what you claimed, it would not be binding until it appeared in an official location.

Not that I am advocating rerolls be denied on nat "1," just saying there is no rule for/against it

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

So is there anyone actually advocating that you can't reroll 1s?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hillary:
"OUR COMMON GROUND:

No one has a problem with GMs lending their reroll to players who have a bad roll."

I didn't have a problem with that, until the campaign rules document specified that it was a privilege of the campaign coins. Now I follow the rules and hand the new players a folio to borrow instead.

3/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
So is there anyone actually advocating that you can't reroll 1s?

That's the general practice here In Singapore. I'm not sure when the VC ruled on it but it has been that way as long as I can remember.

I've tried to argue the other side but they want an official statement before they change the practice.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Chris Mortika wrote:
Now I follow the rules and hand the new players a folio to borrow instead.

It could be argued that the rules intend for the player to buy their own reroll source, not have one loaned to them for one session. Lest we forget, the purpose of the reroll program was to sell more Paizo "stuff" and as a thank you provide a minor reward. For those giving a reroll source to someone at the table, what happens when more than one player doesn't have one? Who gets your one reroll item? Or do you allow each person to use it once each? Or once as a shared table reroll. Or some competitive way like high roller gets the privaledge of holding your spare reroll item?

The point is, some seem to want to be strict rules lawyers for some things and bend the rules when it suits them. IMO the original intent of the reroll program is generally not being followed. At this point, might as well grant everyone a reroll just for playing or recind the reroll program entirely.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

First come, first serve. If they want a guarantee, for when someone else has used it, or they aren't at my table, they have to buy it. And if they keep "forgetting" to bring/buy it, I'll "forget" to hand it out.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Someone can wear one of my shirts over their parka if they have to...

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland— Baltimore aka Qstor

When I wear a shirt I tend to give a re-roll to new players that don't have a folio or shirt when the character fails a saving throw for example. With the ok of the table.

I've never seen it where the table forces a GM to re-roll using his or her stars as a minus and I've been playing since GenCon 2008.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland— Baltimore aka Qstor

Bob Jonquet wrote:

For those giving a reroll source to someone at the table, what happens when more than one player doesn't have one? Who gets your one reroll item? Or do you allow each person to use it once each? Or once as a shared table reroll. Or some competitive way like high roller gets the privaledge of holding your spare reroll item?

The point is, some seem to want to be strict rules lawyers for some things and bend the rules when it suits them. IMO the original intent of the reroll program is generally not being followed. At this point, might as well grant everyone a reroll just for playing or recind the reroll program entirely.

Just one re-roll when I "loan" out my shirt generally just for newer players.

Sovereign Court 5/5

I often play with someone who, when they run the table, brings six folios to the game. and at the start asks who doesn't have a re-roll item. If the player doesn't have one, he offers loan one out - and if they want to buy it, it means he'll just replace it later.

Then again, my wife bought a dozen or so a while back, and tends to give them to beginners at the table that don't have one... If she's in a good mood. As she says - "got to keep them newbies alive, that gives the monsters more targets to shoot at".

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