Magical Lineage and picking a level 0 spell: is it legal to do so?


Rules Questions

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Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'm disagreeing with you on a factual basis and have nothing to say on your mental health. If you wish to take any of my posts out of context and find abuse in them, I can't stop you but none of them where. the negative view was all YOU, as I wasn't making a point on YOU but a point on confirmation bias.

well he has shown a tendency to take stuff out of context and find issues with it. ;)

It seems to me he is feeling personally attacked due to the inability to separate himself from his view. thus skewing all the arguments to be insults to him. You can also tell this by him not actually addressing your argument, but attacking you and your choice of examples. Since to him it seems person and view are the same, attacking you counts as addressing your view. If he feels that he's not doing that he's doing a very poor job, cause he is strongly providing evidence otherwise.

If this thread had gone up on any weekday I bet it would've been locked for a while already.

It's partially my fault. I've been trying to distance myself but I find it irksome what someone misrepresents what I posted so he's been reeling me back in. I think the best way to avoid taking the bait is to just not check the thread anymore. It's hard though as I'll wonder what new way the OP will come up with to make simple math not work. It's kind of like the morbid curiosity that makes people slow down to look at a car accident... ;)

And you're most likely right on the locking [or dying]. I can't imagine it'll stay open too long. If I'm not here, I'm sure someone else that 'dogpiled' on him will get similar treatment if they engage him without agreeing with him. Have fun everyone.

Amiros Valeri: You'll have a much better time on these boards if you don't come in assuming people that don't agree with you are attacking you on a personal level. It's impossible for your idea/theory to have it's feelings hurt if it's attacked/opposed/ect.


My suggestion OP, apparently you have at least 1 more game before you have to choose (you said you only played him once). Next time you play him ask the DM if you can take Magical lineage with a 0 level spell and see what he says.

It's been awhile since I played PFS, but could a DM write on a chronicle, "approved use of Magical lineage with Guidance" and would it carry any weight with future DMs?


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Valandil Ancalime wrote:

My suggestion OP, apparently you have at least 1 more game before you have to choose (you said you only played him once). Next time you play him ask the DM if you can take Magical lineage with a 0 level spell and see what he says.

It's been awhile since I played PFS, but could a DM write on a chronicle, "approved use of Magical lineage with Guidance" and would it carry any weight with future DMs?

That seems completely unnecessary since you can in fact take Magical Lineage with a 0 level spell.


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Negative spell slots never factor in to the equation, though. You add metamagic first and then the trait reduces the spell level. You can't do it the other way, because the trait doesn't apply to spells that haven't been modified with metamagic.

The order of operations makes this a non-issue.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In terms of the limitation you're claiming that 'pick a spell' excludes level 0, I'll think about that when you (or someone else) can provide a link. It's too vague right now.

In terms of the mathematics, please take a look at the following argument.

Let a=the original spell's level
let b=the metamagic cost

According to your argument, the spell's level is treated as
(a-1)+b

(a-1)+b=(a+(-1))+b from the definition of subtraction.

Now, for clarity, let's use c to represent -1.

So far, we know that (a-1)+b=(a+c)+b.

Now, by the associative law for addition, (a+c)+b=a+(c+b).

Since addition is commutative, a+(c+b)=a+(b+c)

Now using the associative law again, a+(b+c)=(a+b)+c.

We said that c=-1, so (a+b)+c=(a+b)+(-1).

Now we use the definition of subtraction again, so (a+b)+(-1)=(a+b)-1.

We conclude that (a-1)+b=(a+b)-1.

Thus, subtracting one from the spell's level and then adding on the metamagic cost is mathematically exactly the same as adding the metamagic cost to the spell level and then subtracting one.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Amiros Valeri, have you ever had a DM rule against this?

Yes, I when I saw him yesterday he told me he would rule against it because of the following:

In one of the online PFS games he played in another rule provided a link to where the DEVs stated that when a trait or feat tells you to choose a spell, that you are not allowed to choose a cantrip/orison/knack. He was not running the game and the rule did not affect his character so he did not click on the link. As there was no further discussion it seems that GM agreed with the official clarification provided by the player's link.

I have asked if anyone knows where the clarifying rule is regarding how such traits/feats interact with being able to choose level 0 spells. No helpful posts regarding that as of yet.

I did bring up that two feats (Expanded Arcana and Extra Cantrips or Orisons) does make it seem like the DEV's intent is that you can not pick cantrips/orisons with Expanded Arcana, since if you can Extra Cantrips or Orisons was a redundant feat when the book it is in (UM) was published, as at that time there was no classes that gained only cantrips/orisons.

The above observation leads credence to the possibility that there is official clarification stating you cannot select a cantrip/orison/knack when a trait or feat states to 'choose a spell'.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
James Jacobs statement that cantrips weren't spells were overruled (giving magi all day flurry with arcane mark()

Is the James Jacob statement you are referring to the one that stated you can not select cantrips/orisons/knacks when a trait/feat tells you to 'choose a spell'?

Can you provide a link to it and a link to where it was overruled?

Community & Digital Content Director

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Locking while we sift through this.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a number of posts, their responses, and leaving this locked.

Text is an imperfect medium. When people disagree on an issue, suggesting that the source of the disagreement is their ability to comprehend text as a whole is pretty uncool and is almost certainly guaranteed to cause friction. Issuing ultimatums to other community members about how they should and should not respond to a thread generally doesn't go over well—this is why we have the flagging system and community@paizo.com inbox in place. If you see posts that you feel aren't in line with the Community Guidelines, please refer to those channels. Thanks.

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