In about 3 weeks I plan to run my whole crew (8 players, APL 17, Average Mythic Tier 6 against a group of 9, count 'em 9 liches. This has been a fight that's been coming for a long time, but I want it to be memorable for the party, maybe even kill one or two to keep them humble as they've waltzed through everything I've thrown at them so far.
So, Pathfinders, what are your favorite, most dangerous or destructive spells? I'm about to turn in for the night, but lay 'em on me. I'll check them out in the morning.
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Well, Mass Suffocation is a very scary spell to throw at a party. Even if they save, they are staggered for a round. If they don't save, death approaches very quickly.
If you want something flashier (and deadlier) There is nothing like a Maximized Mythic Meteor Swarm. Add in Channel Power from the archmage path and basically nothing can survive it without finding some way to completely avoid or absorb the fire damage. If you want to be a bit kinder to your players, leave out the Maximized part. That takes a metamagic rod or mythic power to maximize a 9th level spell anyway.
Another thought: Use the Infectious Spell mythic power to make many spells (such as Mass Suffocation) even more frightening. You'll just have to go with the interpretation that the caster controls the spread so that it can't backfire on him...
Oh, that sounds great!
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Icy Prison Mass
Scribes Binding- remember mind rape?
Mage's Magnificent Enclosure- use with a familiar or spectral hand
Hostile Juxtaposition Greater- a solid way to redirect attacks and interrupt melee full attacks
Shadow Body + Shadow Endurance- both very nice defensive spells
Mind Swap Greater
Possession
Mages Disjunction
Spellbane- you have 9 people capable of turning off 3+ spells each
Create Demiplane Greater- make a demiplane without magic and no exit. Then Plane shift people there
Psychic Asylum- if they have quick study they can leave spell slots open and prepare them as a swift action
Dazing Chain Lightning
Telekinesis- give to an EK using high crit ranged weapons of the largest size category weight limit supports
Polymorph Any Object
Timestop + Summon Monster IX
Form of the Alien Dragon III
Overwhelming Presence
Fiery Body- combo with a fire blaster build and include self in area
Excellent suggestions!
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Can liches be witches? Because quickened Ill Omen, followed by your favorite save-or-suck is always nasty.
Really, the key to making it challenging isn't necessarily the single spells. It's the spell combinations. Mind Blank + Greater Invis + Silence on a Psychic lich is going to be quite painful for most parties. A Warpriest lich with Source Severance (Arcane) diving the back line is similarly scary.
With creatures as buff-capable as liches, making sure that they're adequately buffed before combat with their 10 min/lvl and 1 min/lvl buffs is key. Place Alarm spells between sets of doors (i.e. there are 15' long hallways with doors at either end, put Alarm spells in the hallways so the door opens and it goes off before the trap spotter can find them), use divination magic to initiate ye olde Scry and Fry, Telepathic Bond some minions so you know when they arrive, etc. Don't waste precious in-combat rounds with buffing when you could instead be killing.
No Save spells are relatively helpful in dealing with parties like this, too. Maze and Euphoric Tranquility are great for disabling single targets.
Lastly, nothing frightens players more than when you break their stuff. Mage's Disjunction on the party is a great way to clear the board and set terrifying expectations. If the liches are particularly wily and have good information on the party, I'm a fan of Greater Object Possession on their items or, better yet, any intelligent items they may have.
Phasic Challenge can help isolate a PC, preventing them from helping their meat shields. Add the Distruptive or Tenacious metamagic feat and you could have an easy mage kill should a lich get close.
Also, try Studied Spell anything on the dwarf if they have Hardy. Getting rid of spell resistance and other magic resisting effects is great, even at +2 spell level.
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Can liches be witches? Because quickened Ill Omen, followed by your favorite save-or-suck is always nasty.
Yes, they can, and that's disgusting.
If there's a chance that the party will retreat after one or two fall, Soul Bind is a brutal spell because it makes resurrection impossible.
If Maze is good at isolating single targets, Maze of Madness and Suffering is good at breaking them, even if they escape. Even when surging, a character whose Int score is low will have a hard time getting out.
Mass Hold Person isn't flashy, but a really effective choice for a save-or-suck.
Time Stop, Summon Monster IX, Cloudkill (conjured so it will run into PCs) and maybe Mislead and/or project image. Also, probably should have them be Astral Projected and with their phylacteries in private demiplanes.
In the meanwhile, have them wear items that appear to be phylacteries, but are really gems with Trap the Soul+any high CR baddie you like for a bit of a vengeful after party (highlights including Tarrasque, Cthulhu, Shoggoths, and Ancient Dragons).
Another fun gimmick is Contingency (Empowered Detonate when reduced to 1 HP or lower).
But these are just side dishes. For the main effects, Dastis has a solid list. I'll add Death Clutch, Waves of Ecstasy, and
This section includes a large number of evil spells. Casting an evil spell is an evil act, but for most characters simply casting such a spell once isn't enough to change her alignment; this only occurs if the spell is used for a truly abhorrent act, or if the caster established a pattern of casting evil spells over a long period.
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The GM decides whether the character's alignment changes, but typically casting two evil spells is enough to turn a good creature nongood...Though this advice talks about evil spells it also applies to spells with other alignment descriptors.
It is one of the silliest rules in the game IMO, but it means a wand of celestial healing/protection from evil/etc can make the lich no longer evil. Have one wand with 18 missing charges for the entire horde of liches and now you needn't worry about smite evil or similar. Or don't, as this is blatant cheese.
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Nobody's mentioned irradiate yet? Oh, you're in for a treat. Check the Technology Guide section of the PRD.
It's not as high level as some others mentioned, but that's okay. Because that means you can quicken it. ^_^
(Plus, all the liches will be immune.)
really nasty low level spell? if your target cant fly\climb\teleport and no acid ressitance - acid pit.
dc 30 climb of 100 ft max with no climb speed a character with 30 speed can climd 15 ft asa full round or take a panilty to tr ymaking 30 ft. and anytime they take damage they need to roll a new climb check (so adding an aoe spell like acid cloud in the pit will be deadly. to really nail it shot cast an illusion of a floor on the acid pit area. unless they have true sight they will only get a save to notice the illusion when they step on it and by then its too late.
Here's an oddball answer: Reaching Sequester. No save throw, your enemy goes into a coma while also becoming invisible and immune to scrying effects. Not only can this help weaken the party before the big encounter, but it can add a huge amount of tension for the party!
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In about 3 weeks I plan to run my whole crew (8 players, APL 17, Average Mythic Tier 6 against a group of 9, count 'em 9 liches. This has been a fight that's been coming for a long time, but I want it to be memorable for the party, maybe even kill one or two to keep them humble as they've waltzed through everything I've thrown at them so far.
So, Pathfinders, what are your favorite, most dangerous or destructive spells? I'm about to turn in for the night, but lay 'em on me. I'll check them out in the morning.
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Can liches be witches? Because quickened Ill Omen, followed by your favorite save-or-suck is always nasty.
Massacre is on the Witch spell list ^w^
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MassacreIn about 3 weeks I plan to run my whole crew (8 players, APL 17, Average Mythic Tier 6 against a group of 9, count 'em 9 liches. This has been a fight that's been coming for a long time, but I want it to be memorable for the party, maybe even kill one or two to keep them humble as they've waltzed through everything I've thrown at them so far.
So, Pathfinders, what are your favorite, most dangerous or destructive spells? I'm about to turn in for the night, but lay 'em on me. I'll check them out in the morning.
Ouch...
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Ouch...MassacreIn about 3 weeks I plan to run my whole crew (8 players, APL 17, Average Mythic Tier 6 against a group of 9, count 'em 9 liches. This has been a fight that's been coming for a long time, but I want it to be memorable for the party, maybe even kill one or two to keep them humble as they've waltzed through everything I've thrown at them so far.
So, Pathfinders, what are your favorite, most dangerous or destructive spells? I'm about to turn in for the night, but lay 'em on me. I'll check them out in the morning.
^w^ I like that spell.
^w^ I like that spell.Ouch...MassacreIn about 3 weeks I plan to run my whole crew (8 players, APL 17, Average Mythic Tier 6 against a group of 9, count 'em 9 liches. This has been a fight that's been coming for a long time, but I want it to be memorable for the party, maybe even kill one or two to keep them humble as they've waltzed through everything I've thrown at them so far.
So, Pathfinders, what are your favorite, most dangerous or destructive spells? I'm about to turn in for the night, but lay 'em on me. I'll check them out in the morning.
That one is not to far off from some old nasty 1st edition spells (ofcourse that one would be like 7th level in first cause it only does the 10d6 if they weren't effected by the first part.)
Edit oh and they get saving throws.
Lol great way to lay some minions low. teach them for taking leadership
Here's an oddball answer: Reaching Sequester.You may want to check the Target line. ^_^
Apply Persistent Dominate Person first, do as much damage as you safely can with them, then make them willing to undergo Sequester.
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Some great advice in here. I'd been intending to suggest Massacre, but Rysky beat me to it.
Time Stop is certainly great for setting up the battlefield with summons and ongoing area effects.
Spellbane is especially great if the liches are aware of the party tactics, as a means of countering some key spell choices. Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity, as well, assuming one of the liches skews towards being a divine caster.*
You will also want to consider how to maximize use of the terrain, as well as the liches' undead immunities. So stuff like (Persistent?) Cloudkill through the area can be helpful, especially if the liches are using things like Echolocation to continue to see. I expect several of your players can easily deal with the vision issues, but perhaps not all, and having to deal with an ongoing Cloudkill effect may become quite challenging (especially since the CON damage will make future saves even harder).
I kinda hate Dazing spell, but if it's something the PCs use, definitely use it back against them in turn.
*Edit 1: Actually, I highly recommend you make at least one of the liches a cleric, and set him/her up with a bunch of the channeling feats, so you can drop a series of quickened channels to harm the PCs and heal the liches, along with your other tactics.
Edit 2: For NPC enemies, the Symbol spells are pretty clutch. In particular, Symbol of Dispelling right before the PCs enter combat can be a brutal way to strip away some of their key buffs and leave them feeling vulnerable.
Edit 3: For evil necromancer liches, I also love the Death Clutch spell. Wait until a PC is obviously injured, and then hammer them with it.
Some great advice in here. I'd been intending to suggest Massacre, but Rysky beat me to it.
Time Stop is certainly great for setting up the battlefield with summons and ongoing area effects.
Spellbane is especially great if the liches are aware of the party tactics, as a means of countering some key spell choices. Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity, as well, assuming one of the liches skews towards being a divine caster.
You will also want to consider how to maximize use of the terrain, as well as the liches' undead immunities. So stuff like (Persistent?) Cloudkill through the area can be helpful, especially if the liches are using things like Echolocation to continue to see. I expect several of your players can easily deal with the vision issues, but perhaps not all, and having to deal with an ongoing Cloudkill effect may become quite challenging (especially since the CON damage will make future saves even harder).
I kinda hate Dazing spell, but if it's something the PCs use, definitely use it back against them in turn.
Life Bubble completely destroys that strategy, as communal delay poison, so it all depends on whether your players usually prepare it and use it. I definitely would and if they know they are going to face the final boss you can expect them to be ready with a lot of protection spells.
Don't only think what the BBEG can do to the players to completely mess with them, but also try to foresee what your players would try to do to avoid the BBEG messing with them.Also, making the BBEG a Bard with offensive stuff would be soooo ironic (you know why) xD
I faced a Dirge Bard as an high level enemy on my last campaign and even though we managed to cut her from her minions she gave a tough fight (the key spell that she used to screw us up was Silence!)
Of course, probably a Wizard would be more powerful but a bard would be so ironic.
Mythic characters so any negative status condition can be negated with a spend of 1 mythic point.
What I found lethal as a trick for mythic characters is to use mythic time stop which brings a group of people into time stop , bring 4 of one side and 1 enemy into a time stop effect , gang up and kill the individual target. Best used to eliminate the Healer or Wizard from a group and leave the group crippled.
Maze is also good for breaking up the party, particularly mythic healers as they have the ability to hang around healing people for many rounds after death. Maze does get rid of them without giving them any chance to hang around.
Control winds can be startlingly effective at breaking up the party at a high caster level. I don't know whether mythic rules/ranks affect that.
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I second Maze. Nothing splits up a party quite like it. If you can augment mythic cast it then things are extra fun.
Time Stop + summons or battlefield control. "With a simple wave of his hand, the room is divided by multiple Walls of Force." The key to knocking out a PC always starts with getting them alone.
Naturally, Dominate Monster (with that quickened Ill Omen prior if you can) should be one the table. Use their Min/Maxing Mythic Madness against them.
edit: almost forgot about Prismatic Spray. A bit to random for some people but Blue, Indigo, and Violet really mess up a party.
For the sheer silliness of taking out a high level party with a low level spell, have the liches focus fire with maximized magic missiles. 270 damage to a single target ought to take out all but the toughest barbarians, maybe? Then, of course, have them quicken another set and take out PC #2. I'm not familiar with mythic so maybe this wouldn't be effective.
All of that could possibly be done through projected images while the liches hide behind protective wall spells so they aren't in immediate danger of reprisal. Sound fun!
Mythic characters so any negative status condition can be negated with a spend of 1 mythic point.
Their average tier is 6, Unstoppable only comes online at 8. So, status conditions can still stick.
Emergency Force Sphere + Magic Jar
Black Tentacles + Cloudkill
Spell Turning (I love to watch the players face when they have their best spells turned on them)
Dazing Acid Arrow, A. Orb or Any continued Damage spells
Sirocco
Enervation
Rime Cone of Cold
Prismatic Wall + Bull rushing Hand (keep shoving them back through the wall)
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First of all, you want your Liches to keep any buffs they have casted before combat. So it might be wise to also buff them with Aroden's Spellbane and select Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Mage's Disjunction. Just to be safe.
Also, people usually hate two things, time limits and spontaneous underwater combat. That latter one is usually dismissed by freedom of movement, but critters still need to breathe. The lvl 15 ability of the Aquatic Bloodline allows one to summon great amounts of water as a standard action, plunging everyone. Combine this with Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Force, and (Mass) Suffocation or the Warpriest's Airless Touch, and there is serious pressure on the PC's. Or, you know, Dispel their Freedom of Movement.
For defenses, a combination of Ablative Barrier and Dust Form significantly lowers the taken damage: First halved, then Resistance/DR, then 5 damage converted to non-lethal (which they are immune to). Bonus points if you can combine this with a Protector Tumor Familiar for further halving of stuff (a Rhamphorhynchus has a build in Evasion)
Some handy spells:
If you know how to place it, Wall of Suppression can certainly sour the party (or force them to use up their spell slots to deal with it).
Akashic Form, which is only on the Psychic list, allows a destroyed Lich to resurface next round, fully healed, and still under the effect of any long lasting buff it had when he casted this spell hours ago.
Divide Mind, another Psychic spell, allows for pseudo Quikened spells.
Psychic Image. Create a Ghost of yourself through which you can cast Psychic spells. Your ghost cannot take damage, so it might be funny with a wall of force effect protecting the caster.
Fool's Forbiddance, for when the Martials get up close. It combines pretty well with Quickened spells and Divide Mind.
Telekinetic Storm. Just spam it.
Now some save or suck/die spells:
Life of Crime, which instills a permanent Crime Wave.
Maze of Madness and Suffering was already named, if I'm correct. But it is still a good spell to get someone out of the fight.
Microcosm, which at this level is only 1 target. But if it sticks, you cannot get out of it without a Miracle or Wish (doesn't care about mythic stuff, it's really just a "nope, you're out" effect)
Death Clutch, aka Mage Killer.
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Old 3.5 Avasculate
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Folks! There are so many fantastic suggestions here that I don't have to hit like on them. I love them all. And Avasculate! Good lawd amighty!
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Old 3.5 AvasculateYesssss. Also avascular mass.*reads*
Oooooo, I like, I like!
*happily jumps up and down*
OH, DO I WISH I HAD NOT READ THAT SPELL!
That is HORRIFYING.
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Some great advice in here. I'd been intending to suggest Massacre, but Rysky beat me to it.
Time Stop is certainly great for setting up the battlefield with summons and ongoing area effects.
Spellbane is especially great if the liches are aware of the party tactics, as a means of countering some key spell choices. Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity, as well, assuming one of the liches skews towards being a divine caster.
You will also want to consider how to maximize use of the terrain, as well as the liches' undead immunities. So stuff like (Persistent?) Cloudkill through the area can be helpful, especially if the liches are using things like Echolocation to continue to see. I expect several of your players can easily deal with the vision issues, but perhaps not all, and having to deal with an ongoing Cloudkill effect may become quite challenging (especially since the CON damage will make future saves even harder).
I kinda hate Dazing spell, but if it's something the PCs use, definitely use it back against them in turn.
Life Bubble completely destroys that strategy, as communal delay poison, so it all depends on whether your players usually prepare it and use it. I definitely would and if they know they are going to face the final boss you can expect them to be ready with a lot of protection spells.
Don't only think what the BBEG can do to the players to completely mess with them, but also try to foresee what your players would try to do to avoid the BBEG messing with them.Also, making the BBEG a Bard with offensive stuff would be soooo ironic (you know why) xD
I faced a Dirge Bard as an high level enemy on my last campaign and even though we managed to cut her from her minions she gave a tough fight (the key spell that she used to screw us up was Silence!)
Of course, probably a Wizard would be more powerful but a bard would be so ironic.
Good points about predicting and addressing the PC's counters/defences.
If the liches know much about the PCs' tactics and capabilities, they likely have some sense of what the PCs might be doing to prepare/buff, and work around that. Since they know they're fighting liches/high level casters, they should be buffed to the max with things like Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Life Bubble, etc.
That's where things like Mage's Disjunction and the Symbol of Dispelling or even Wall of Suppression come in, to strip those things away and make them vulnerable.
I *really* like Kalindlara's suggestion of a dedicated dispeller/counterspeller amongst Team Lich. There are tons of shenanigans such a caster could use to boost their effective caster level for Greater Dispel Magic (feats like Dispel Focus/Greater Dispel Focus, Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, and spells like Cleromancy and Grand Destiny, to name a few). Obviously Destructive Dispel could be great for the chance of stacking some stun on top of the dispel itself (or at least sickened, making the enemy a little bit weaker versus allied lich spells). I like the Arcanist for this lich, because of the action economy of the Counterspell exploit to counter the PCs spells as an immediate action, while using Greater Dispel on his/her own turn to strip away any buffs, or ready a further counterspell as a standard. The ability to use the Potent Magic exploit to further boost caster level checks doesn't hurt either.
EDIT: The combination of something like Wall of Suppression or Anti Magic Field and Spellbane seems like a fun possibility. Haven't really considered the finer details, but the idea of being able to ignore the downsides of such spells while leveraging their obvious advantages is neat. (Can you tell this topic has me really thinking? Every time I think of an idea and post, a bunch of other ideas pop into my brain -- hence all the edits.)
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Widened Anti-Life Shell.
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I *really* like Kalindlara's suggestion of a dedicated dispeller/counterspeller amongst Team Lich. There are tons of shenanigans such a caster could use to boost their effective caster level for Greater Dispel Magic (feats like Dispel Focus/Greater Dispel Focus, Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, and spells like Cleromancy and Grand Destiny, to name a few). Obviously Destructive Dispel could be great for the chance of stacking some stun on top of the dispel itself (or at least sickened, making the enemy a little bit weaker versus allied lich spells). I like the Arcanist for this lich, because of the action economy of the Counterspell exploit to counter the PCs spells as an immediate action, while using Greater Dispel on his/her own turn to strip away any buffs, or ready a further counterspell as a standard. The ability to use the Potent Magic exploit to further boost caster level checks doesn't hurt either.
Although a Arcanist has the better action economy for counter-spelling, I would also like to mention the Spellscar Oracle. They have a revelation which further ups the dispel checks with +4, which also stacks with the aforementioned feats. And instead of better counter-spelling outside of their turn, they can cause Primal Magic Events! Those can be devastating, and bring a certain roulette-feeling to the encounter. Furthermore, Liches are immune to a lot of the outcomes on the Primal Magic Event table (only Mass Heal is a major downside for them), so you could turn that to your advantage. I'm not saying that it is a better choice for a dispeller than the Arcanist, just a different flavor with a different focus. You could also have both of them, both an Arcanist and an Oracle. You have 9 Liches, it can be possible. Just remember: you can also target your own/ your allies's spells for Primal intervention. And they can forfeit any concentration check to just let it happen ;)
That's a great idea! Thanks!
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Also, have you thought about unconventional Liches?
A Bloodrager Lich with a Life Drinker? Starts to work the moment they lose their Death Ward.
An Inquisitor Lich archer, perhaps? Bane:whatever-you-are can be devastating, and there are ways around Wind Wall / Fickle Winds (Silver Nocking Point, Cyclonic bow)
Or maybe even a Magus, Occultist, Hunter or Ranger? These classes are more physically orientated, which might catch your players off-guard when they are expecting Wizards/Clerics/Psychics and stuff.
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Wall of Suppression Cast at CL-1 , this works a lot better if the Enemy in question is of a higher Caster level than the party possibly using prayer beads / orange ioun stones.
This could also be achieved via VMC Witch using the coven hex to increase caster level by enough to beat the parties CL threshold
Then just cast whatever other spell combinations were proposed as they will have no magical items, spells or abilities with which to retaliate outside of artifacts.
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If the Liches in question are mythic then Mythic magic missile With meta magic would actually be my call. Maximized and augmented that's 90 damage per Lich that cannot be avoided in any way (810 across 90 missiles) and then you could add an additional 30 per Lich with quicken for a grand total of 1080 Damage Which can be subdivided as you wish.
obviously this number can be a lot higher but i'm lazy
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Calcific Touch is a good option. It's only forth level but that means you can apply whatever metamagic you want to it(I'd advise maximize).
Best part is that a successful save doesn't stop the worst part of the spell; the d4 of dex damage that petrifies them permanently once they're down to zero.
Of course I have a personal phobia regarding paralyzation/petrification so maybe that's just me.
Calcific Touch is a good option. It's only forth level but that means you can apply whatever metamagic you want to it(I'd advise maximize).
Best part is that a successful save doesn't stop the worst part of the spell; the d4 of dex damage that petrifies them permanently once they're down to zero.
Of course I have a personal phobia regarding paralyzation/petrification so maybe that's just me.
Do you happen to know if a touch spell like that would also carry the Lich's usual Paralyzing Touch? My feeling is that it could discharge the touch spell on the touch attack, allowing for some synergy and stacked effects to save against.
It also makes the suggestion of something like a Bloodrager or Magus Lich more intriguing, as it can use its touch attack as a secondary natural attack, along with whatever other full attack routine it might be making.