Thundercaller Bard Questions.

Rules Questions

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A player is playing Thunder Caller bard. He begins playing Inspiring Courage. He casts Virtuoso Performance and adds Thunder call. Next turn he casts Shadow bard and hands Inspiring Courage to it, and starts up a different Performance. Next turn he casts Exquisite Accompaniment to attempts to hand Thunder call to it to start up a 2nd Thunder Call. This is not legal to do correct? As Bardic Performance states: A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.

Virtuoso lets him run 2.
Shadow Bard lets him play 1.
Exquisite Accompaniment could play 1.
But playing TWO Thunder calls is not possible. Right?

so..he can,but he does it wrong (if he does what you say).

technicly he can have up to 3 thunder call running at the same time. call a shadow bard (which is techincly like a summoned creature that uses its own abiities but have the bard's list of performances.) since thunder call is a bardic performance the shadow bard can then start one performance of it. then the player can start a 2nd performance and cast virtuoso to continue it while he start a 3rd and all run at the same time (costing him 3 rounds of performance each round.2 for virtuosos one for normal performance, the shadow bard doesn't cost rounds), he can not have exquisite accompaniment with the virtuoso as the spell has:
"Virtuoso performance does not stack with any other method of maintaining simultaneous bardic performances." (the shadowbard is not maintaning the player's performance rather doing its own gig so that shuld be fine. some gm might say no)

as for te general rule of no more then one performance at the same time that is a general rule. the speciifc of the spells used here break said rule. (normaly a bard cant use both inspire courage and say thunder call at once. the spell specificly allow it. this is a general VS specific thing.)

I am perfectly ok with him doing multiple DIFFERENT performances but what makes it legal for him to do multiple of the SAME performance. As far as I know you can't play Inspire Courage twice or Suggestion twice.

well technically he can choose to use the 3 performances to do 3 different acts of inspire courage. the rules allow him that. it wont help since they don't stack so the target won't get any more then from one performance. but since he is also have limited targets he could by doing so effect X3 the number of targets he is normally allowed.(by picking different people to effect with each performance). you need to remember that specific rules trump general rules. that is also the case with every feat in the game.
general rule : you add only your base attack bonus and str to a hit roll with a greatsword. -> weapon focus(greatsword) now you get a +1.
you only make one aoo in a round. -> combat reflexes. the game is built on general rules being changes by class abilities, feats and spells.
this is such case. you can only perform one a ta time -shadow bard perform for himself, virtuoso spell let you add a new performance .

now since this specific performance is also an instantaneous damage being dealt(each round it continue) it wont even have the problem of stacking with itself. as each damage is done before the next one start.

I still don't understand it. Why does it let him Thundercall 3 times in 1 turn? Its all the same performance and it shouldn't work that way.

The Exchange

You do not maintain a thundercall, it is a standard action each turn. Virtuoso could be used for something other than thundercall. Shadowbard would definitely work the first turn, might have to use a move action to make him do it again each turn. So most you could have is 2 per round.

It doesn't say it is a standard action.

The Exchange

It says you can spend one round of bardic performance to create an effect similar to soundburst. Nothing about as long as you maintain it like is presented in the call lightning at later levels. Otherwise a bard could actually use this 5-6 times per round XD. When not listed SU abilities default to standard actions.

to Danzibe1989 :
he is not doing 3 performances all by himslef. that he cant do.
but he is performing one. the virtuoso spell is performing one and the shadowbard is performing one. or are you saying 3 thundercalling bards cant perform a thunder call at the same time?. he just found a way to control 2 other things that can perform the same thing he can. not difrent then hiring npc to do the same.

to leonvios : this is a specific type of su ability. it is labeled under "bardic performances" (just a few lines above it's information) and as such is under the same rules. - starting them and maintaining them have very specific action economy. unles the performance say otherwise. lets look at thunder call :

Thunder Call:
(Su): At 3rd level, the thundercaller can use her performance to unleash a deafening peal of thunder. This allows the thundercaller to spend a round of performance to create an effect similar to the spell sound burst (having the same range and area and allowing the same saving throw). At 7th level, the sonic damage that is dealt by this blast of sound increases to 3d8. This damage further increases to 5d8 at 11th level, 7d8 at 15th level, and 9d8 at 19th level. This performance replaces inspire competence.

"can use her performance" -this mean it work as other performance so far, for starting and maintaining. nothing here say he need to spend an action to make it. basicly he start it as a performance (in lower levels as a standard action, later as move and finally as swift) and the use of performance round come into play as sound burst. next turn he might use a standard action to fight and keep the performance (like any other performance) as a free action and spend one more round to use the thunder call again.
ill give you one thing. it is unclear if the sound burst effect cost an extra round as in starting the performance does nothing but allow for while it goes to spend one more round to sue sound burst.
as you said it is illogical to let him spend a lot and just hit 5 at one round so id say the performance and the sound burst sue the same round of activation and so can be used once per round

The Exchange

Meh perhaps it is just terribly written. in all honesty the only reason you would ever not use thunder call instead of the later more powerful abilities is because call lighting and call lightning storm have a longer range. not only do you force a fort save to stun, it does more damage that is not defendant on saves. the other questions I have with some of the talk in this thread are the following.

Can the Shadow Bard target on it's own with the performance?
Does the Virtuoso spell even allow you to thundercall more?.
Can this be activated as a Swift, move then Standard action then maintain as a free action rinse repeat?
Does switching The Shadow Bards performance with your own move action allow you to get a second free thunder call?
Does Lingering Performance allow you to use thunder call 3 times for the price of one (effectively giving bards 24 + (Cha x3) thunder calls at level 3?
Does it effectively cost 2 rounds of performance per thunder call, one to maintain the second to actually use the sound burst effect? If it does can a Shadow Bard or Virtuoso spell do this?

My Thoughts on it.
"This allows the thundercaller to spend a round of performance" < this part does not state an action, and is definitely not the usual text regarding bardic performances, so if it is a free action it doesn't state a limit anywhere otherwise you could just dump your entire bardic performance pool into a single round. so what actions do we think it would use? the only logical conclusion I have is a Standard Action. In conclusion this would mean until you can start a bardic performance as a move or a swift you would have to begin the performance and in the next round start using it. As far as I am concerned this is RAW and likely does not work with the aforementioned spells.

However I think the Actual Intention is similar to the sound striker bard where they are just standard actions to use the bardic performances due to the targeted nature.

yea. this archtype need to be writen again in plain english. as is it got a lot needed to explain.
as for the shadowbard targeting id say since almost all of the bard's perforemances are targeting specific targets (maybe except inspire courage) that the player select the target of the performance as a free action while the shadow bard uses it (or as part of the action that he uses when he order the bard to use a specific performance) changing a target might need an action like changing a performance.

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