2 more questions about Calling.
1) Can you use calling spells (mainly Planar Ally/Planar Binding) to Call and bind Outsiders with the Native subtype? I can't find anything that says I can't, but I'm thinking I've overlooked something.
2) There's no Outsider (Genie) subtype as such, as far as I can tell. Could you still take Genie as a "subtype", for the purpose of the Augment Calling Feat?
2a) Would you allow it, even if it's not strictly RAW?
2b) Actually, why isn't there a Genie subtype. There's a Div subtype, and they're just fallen Genies, right?
1) Yes, you can call Native Outsiders.
2) Genies are not a subtype of their own. They're typically Outsiders with an elemental subtype - but you could pick that subtype to call a specific kind of genie.
2a) Probably not. There's a reason they don't have a subtype.
2b) Probably to help stop Wish-based shenanigans from lower-level summonings.
1) Technically yes, but there are some specific rules about calling outsiders in Ultimate Magic that explicitly disallow most cases of that.
Ultimate Magic wrote: There is one group of outsiders that it is more difficult to bind: the native outsider. A native outsider cannot be called and bound from the Material Plane. In order to call any outsider, it must be on a different plane from the binder. Native outsiders (or other outsiders currently manifesting on the Material Plane) can only be called and bound by spellcasters on a different plane. So, the answer is Yes, but only if you're not on the Material Plane.
2) No. As you say, it is not a subtype. I think it should be, though.
2a) Absolutely, although you are probably limiting yourself a bit much with that as there's very few genies. If I was your GM, though, I would just tell you to go ahead.
2b) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit: Oh, I hadn't even considered wish trickery. Even then, there's devils that can grant wishes and if you took Air as the chosen subtype, you can still summon Viziers (Noble Djinn) with the feat.
GM Rednal wrote:
2a) Probably not. There's a reason they don't have a subtype.
Which would be, please? the mentioned Wish-based trickery?
Quote:
2b) Probably to help stop Wish-based shenanigans from lower-level summonings.
Possibly. Are these a big deal in your experience?
Nixitur wrote:
Ultimate Magic wrote: There is one group of outsiders that it is more difficult to bind: the native outsider. A native outsider cannot be called and bound from the Material Plane. In order to call any outsider, it must be on a different plane from the binder. Native outsiders (or other outsiders currently manifesting on the Material Plane) can only be called and bound by spellcasters on a different plane.
Doesn't this contradict itself?
What if I'm trying to call from a plane other than the Material Plane?
Eg, I'm in my demiplane, could I Call eg a Tiefling from the Material Plane? We're not on the same plane, efter all.
RoseCrown wrote: Doesn't this contradict itself?
What if I'm trying to call from a plane other than the Material Plane?
Eg, I'm in my demiplane, could I Call eg a Tiefling from the Material Plane? We're not on the same plane, efter all.
I don't see how there's any contradiction there at all. And as I said and as the text very clearly states, yes, if you're not on the Material Plane, you can summon native outsiders. The rule about "other outsiders currently manifesting on the Material Plane" is probably there so that if you're facing a demon on some plane, you can't just bind them via a Planar Binding spell cast on that same plane.
RoseCrown wrote: Which would be, please? the mentioned Wish-based trickery? That's the big one. More broadly, though, a Subtype is something that applies additional abilities or effects to a given creature. Most of these are applied based on either the broad type of creature an entity is (angel, agathion, devil, etc.) or where it's from (an elemental plane). Genies weren't created with anything that would require applying something to them as a group, so there's no subtype.
Compare them to demons, for example. Demons get immunity to two things and resistance to three others, plus a spell-like ability, telepathy, three languages, and a note on the use of their natural weapons.
It's basically just a design choice in the end. XD But there are a number of in-game options for dealing with genies, so it's probably better to use those unless you have a reason to design something else.
RoseCrown wrote: Possibly. Are these a big deal in your experience? Nope. Because the rules are written to stop that sort of thing from happening. XD Which is probably how it should be.
Nixitur wrote: RoseCrown wrote: Doesn't this contradict itself?
What if I'm trying to call from a plane other than the Material Plane?
Eg, I'm in my demiplane, could I Call eg a Tiefling from the Material Plane? We're not on the same plane, efter all.
I don't see how there's any contradiction there at all. And as I said and as the text very clearly states, yes, if you're not on the Material Plane, you can summon native outsiders. The rule about "other outsiders currently manifesting on the Material Plane" is probably there so that if you're facing a demon on some plane, you can't just bind them via a Planar Binding spell cast on that same plane. I just re-read your original post, and you are ofcourse completely correct sir. Mea culpa.
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